Gas appliances installed, possibly no permit

woodstock

woodstock

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OK. I PM'd a few of you about this and I have a partial answer and thought I'd open this up for the rest of y'all. I figure there is a lot of knowledge here and I can either have my mind put at rest or scare the crap out of me.

My neighbor (who shares a wall with me - townhouse) has a townhouse that had electric appliances put in by the builder. Fairly sure he had gas heat already (meaning a gas line would have already been coming to the house). Not completely sure, but fairly sure.

He definitely now has gas appliances - I confirmed this tonight. To put these in, I imagine he would have had to cut holes in the ceiling/floor to accommodate the gas stove and run a line upstairs. For the gas dryer, it would just be a line from the heater also in the laundry room.

So I know this much. Started out electric, now gas appliances.

Why do I think no permit? Because he had approached my other neighbor (who is quite a handyman - he does all sorts of remodel jobs) to put in the gas line upstairs/to the dryer, and install the appliances. Handyman refused due to the fact that handyman has no license for this and he'd have to get a permit. Neighbor got ****y and said he'd do it himself/have his FIL do it.

I don't know for a fact how he finally got it installed or whether he got a permit. I think I can find out about the permit by calling the county. No idea about the license issue - how to find out? What would the likely outcome be for this person if he did it without a permit and I turn him in? Slap on the hand and nothing fixed - in which case I have a ****ed off neighbor? Incidentally neighbor has a tenant living there since May, he moved out and decided not to sell in this market. He comes by occasionally. I don't much like the guy - arrogant tool. Apparently he really got into the face of the handyman over something trivial.

Thoughts? I'm worried about a BOOM. The handyman just told me about this and apparently the altercation was at least a year ago. Is this something that can brew and then go up, or is it something that's likely to be an issue pretty quickly, what?
 
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A call to the county can verify a permit was processed, the permit would most likely have required a certified installer to run the gas line and a county inspector to sign off the permit and close it out.

No permit, then code enforcement could get involved and condem the apartment/condo which could impact where you sleep until it gets resolved. They could condem the whole building. Most likely they would require the gas company to close and seal/lock the line into the neighbors place until fixed, and you would be ok.
 
Bill pretty much nailed it.

Few building inspection departments have a sense of humor about unlicensed and unpermitted gas line installations.
 
Whoa. Just to be clear - I am pretty sure he already had a gas line into the house. Just not sure if he had a permit to start moving things around inside the house.

Welp, if the jackass did it illegally, he is asking for it. Think about the damages if everyone in the building had to find hotel lodging for a week/longer...

ps. How long could this take to resolve, if they did condemn the building and make people move out?
 
That's the best case scenario.
 
Fantastic.

So the next question is: I'm going to find out if he got a permit. If he did not, can these reports usually be anonymous? The guy's a jackass, and I live alone. Really don't want to deal with him.
 
I am a contractor and as a preface, I would NEVER do this job without a permit. However, this isn't rocket science. Its just some lines and fittings that need to be properly run and installed. If you turn him in the most likely outcome will be an inspection by code enforcement to see if done properly. If so, about the worst that would happen then is a fine for him for no permit. If improperly installed, he gets to tear it out and do it over. Either way you have a hacked off neighbor. If its been a while since these were installed, the likelyhood of a problem is slim. Up to you what to do.

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Sounds illegal to me 7 ways to Sunday. Lay aside the permitting issue for just a minute to consider how your knowledge of his actions has affected your resale vaule. You will have to enter this on your declarations, yes?

And yes, things do go BOOM in the night.
 
woodstock said:
Yes. The BOOM is the worse case scenario.

It would take out the entire building and the ones next to it, right?
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Is this a condo complex? Is there a company managing it or an HOA? You would think they would want to know about this too.
 
Richard

He has neighbors who own and live next to him, and a renter who thinks he has jazzy new appliances.

I really hope he got a permit but I have a feeling he didn't. This guy was the quintessential "neighbor who tried to throw his weight around". You know, the one who joins the HOA so he can ***** about people overparking yet he can get away with all sorts of "against HOA rules" himself, etc.
 
Everskyward said:
Is this a condo complex? Is there a company managing it or an HOA? You would think they would want to know about this too.
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Townhouse/subdivision. Mix of SFHs and townhomes. We have an HOA, yes.

First I'm going to find out what he did, tomorrow. I tried to poke around online but I'm not sure where to look exactly. I found the county govt page but didn't see anything about finding out about permits applied, etc.

I can't believe the handyman put his head in the sand over this. He knew about it a year ago.

ps. and this really ****es me off that I have to deal with this. There are other examples of this guy being an arrogant jackass that I won't bore you with. I was actually glad he moved out and found a renter. The family in there right now is really nice.
 
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Going to depend on local and state regulations. Unless they changed things, around here, an owner is allowed to do most anything inside their own house. I did the electrical on the second floor of my house, and two downstairs rooms with no permit needed.
 
woodstock said:
Yes. The BOOM is the worse case scenario.

It would take out the entire building and the ones next to it, right?
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Boom is highly unlikely as you need the correct air to gas mixture. Plus, you should have a firewall between units.
 
woodstock said:
Townhouse/subdivision. Mix of SFHs and townhomes. We have an HOA, yes.

First I'm going to find out what he did, tomorrow. I tried to poke around online but I'm not sure where to look exactly. I found the county govt page but didn't see anything about finding out about permits applied, etc.

I can't believe the handyman put his head in the sand over this. He knew about it a year ago.

ps. and this really ****es me off that I have to deal with this. There are other examples of this guy being an arrogant jackass that I won't bore you with. I was actually glad he moved out and found a renter. The family in there right now is really nice.
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You could mention it to the family living there now and couch it to them as a concern for their safety and let them deal with the owner. If they chose not to, then you can continue on.
 
EdFred said:
Going to depend on local and state regulations. Unless they changed things, around here, an owner is allowed to do most anything inside their own house.
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Down here, you can do it yourself BUT permits are required. The homeowner is responsible for ensuring permits are pulled.

The county can go after unlicensed contractors, but ultimately the homeowner is responsible.

In San Antonio permits for certain kinds of work could only be pulled by licensed contractors. In my county in Virginia, homeowners can pull 'em.

In Fairfax county, they're unlikely to condemn unless the situation is unsafe ( eg gas leaking or uninhabitable property). The gas company will respond quickly and tag the meter out - if they do that, the gas company won't generally untag unless an inspection is done. I don't know how Loudoun will handle it.
 
woodstock said:
Richard

He has neighbors who own and live next to him, and a renter who thinks he has jazzy new appliances.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are meaning to say? Are you one of those neighbors? Do those neighbors share a common wall? In California, ever owner of residential property is required to declare about 400 items within 300 yards of the property perimeter boundaries. Yes, even the constant barking dog. Thankfully, most Realtors don't use the full scope of the declarations page.

I really hope he got a permit but I have a feeling he didn't. This guy was the quintessential "neighbor who tried to throw his weight around". You know, the one who joins the HOA so he can ***** about people overparking yet he can get away with all sorts of "against HOA rules" himself, etc.
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That you continue to mention permits (city or county) leads be to believe this guy's property is within the jurisdiction of such a requirement. Then you have the secondary issue of HOA, etc.

I'd be on this like green on grass in spite of Ed's comment about firewalls, etc. A firewall is designed to prevent spreading of a fire (for a limited durtion of time) not to contain an explosion. That last sentence pertains to residential structures in the state of CA. I don't know about other states. Review the Nat'l fire code for futher information or the NYFD code, which is the typical model for nat'l codes.
 
EdFred said:
Boom is highly unlikely as you need the correct air to gas mixture.
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If so, then explain the reasoning for a gas water heater to rest upon a shelf a minimum height of 18" above any surrounding floor in any enclose space whether it is living or non-living space in a residential unit.
 
Richard said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are meaning to say? Are you one of those neighbors? Do those neighbors share a common wall? In California, ever owner of residential property is required to declare about 400 items within 300 yards of the property perimeter boundaries. Yes, even the constant barking dog. Thankfully, most Realtors don't use the full scope of the declarations page.


That you continue to mention permits (city or county) leads be to believe this guy's property is within the jurisdiction of such a requirement. Then you have the secondary issue of HOA, etc.

I'd be on this like green on grass in spite of Ed's comment about firewalls, etc. A firewall is designed to prevent spreading of a fire (for a limited durtion of time) not to contain an explosion. That last sentence pertains to residential structures in the state of CA. I don't know about other states. Review the Nat'l fire code for futher information or the NYFD code, which is the typical model for nat'l codes.
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What I am meaning to say is that if he didn't get a permit, then it's another piece of evidence in the long line of toolishness in this guy.

If he didn't get a permit, yes, I am turning him in. His laundry room (which is where the gas line is) abuts my stairwell.

I am going to hope for the best on this permit issue. I'll know soon.
 
For certain projects built and completed without permits, an "As Built" permit may be issued after an inspection. I do not know if this would apply to new gas plumbing. I suspect it would not due to the potential hazard.
 
Richard said:
For certain projects built and completed without permits, an "As Built" permit may be issued after an inspection. I do not know if this would apply to new gas plumbing. I suspect it would not due to the potential hazard.
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That is possible in some counties, even for gas, in Virginia If the inspection finds problems , however.....
 
woodstock said:
What I am meaning to say is that if he didn't get a permit, then it's another piece of evidence in the long line of toolishness in this guy.

If he didn't get a permit, yes, I am turning him in. His laundry room (which is where the gas line is) adjuts my stairwell.

I am going to hope for the best on this permit issue. I'll know soon.
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I would make the anonymous call to the permitting agency. Or get a gas snifter. Place it at lowest point of adjoining stairwell.

Here's the dealio on that: Leading up to the 1980s builders were all about making a residence as leak proof as possible. Once that was accomplished, an increase in the incidence of high concentrations of naturally occuring Radon gas and yes, NG, was found in a significant amount of residences.

The pendulum swung the other way. A certain amount of wall penetrations were, by design, allowed to 'leak'. By it's very nature, NG or propane will go where it goes. Keep in mind the 'leak' may be beyond the range of where the gas settles.

Allow me to introduce a scenario: you make an extended tour of another country as it seems you are wont. Your home has been sealed up in your absence. You return home to a high concentration of gas within your home. The gas was introduced through the common wall. Your plants are dead, you may even have staining on fabrics or soft flooring such as carpet. How likely this is I will leave to the Fire Marshall or Bldg inspector. But it certainly is not unheard of.
 
Richard said:
If so, then explain the reasoning for a gas water heater to rest upon a shelf a minimum height of 18" above any surrounding floor in any enclose space whether it is living or non-living space in a residential unit.
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Because gas is heavier than air and sinks to the floor where the pilot of the water heater is. Still not likely to go boom. Ed is correct that the ratio of gas to oxygen has to be perfect to cause an explosion. Id be much more concerned about breathing the gas than an explosion. If its been a year since this was done, its not leaking or it would have already shown itself. Still not gonna tell th OP what he should do. But this ain't anything to be concerned about.


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Richard said:
If so, then explain the reasoning for a gas water heater to rest upon a shelf a minimum height of 18" above any surrounding floor in any enclose space whether it is living or non-living space in a residential unit.
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Must be a state/local thing. Both my mine site right on the floor. Also, propane or methane?

Because there's no point of raising 18" it with natural gas which is lighter than air.
 
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mikeinbama said:
Because gas is heavier than air and sinks to the floor where the pilot of the water heater is. Still not likely to go boom. Ed is correct that the ratio of gas to oxygen has to be perfect to cause an explosion. Id be much more concerned about breathing the gas than an explosion. If its been a year since this was done, its not leaking or it would have already shown itself. Still not gonna tell th OP what he should do. But this ain't anything to be concerned about.


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How often does anyone spend much time on the floor especially within 18" of the floor? Should not that height requirement expire after a certain amount of time after any new gas plumbing or it is a constant threat? Wait, I mean it's not a threat.

Yes, we can all agree on the stoichiometry of the phenomena but should that be used to quell the argument for potential hazard?
 
Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) used very frequently today is the predominant pipe used in most construction. Its flexible and quicker to install.
However, it must be "bonded" back to the electrical panel. Not just an earth or appliance ground. Lightning strikes to or near the building make pin hole leaks in this type pipe. Gas purveyors run a copper 'trace' wire above your buried gas line for underground location. So you have any number of feet of buried 'trace/ground' wire in the yard. Lightning can hit anywhere nearby and follow this wire to your csst pipe. Seen it happen. Very serious safety hazard. Many lawsuits pending. Google 'trac pipe bonding'
Ron
Master Plumber/Gas fitter
Maryland/Delaware
 
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. It wouldn't be worth the drama for a pretty unlikely risk.
 
EdFred said:
Going to depend on local and state regulations. Unless they changed things, around here, an owner is allowed to do most anything inside their own house. I did the electrical on the second floor of my house, and two downstairs rooms with no permit needed.
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Same in Ohio.
 
EdFred said:
Boom is highly unlikely as you need the correct air to gas mixture. Plus, you should have a firewall between units.
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If the first condition is achieved, the second condition will not matter.

I live in the same region as Elizabeth, though maybe mot the same county. As far as I know all the counties in our region require permits and inspection for gas and electrical work, and for certain types of plumbing work.
 
Again let me state how ****ed off I am that I have to deal with this. I found out by asking the new tenant if he had gas appliances because I didn't want to ask the owner.
 
i'd say if its been a year and hasn't blown yet it probably isn't going to.
 
woodstock said:
Again let me state how ****ed off I am that I have to deal with this. I found out by asking the new tenant if he had gas appliances because I didn't want to ask the owner.
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This may sound harsh but it truly is not meant to be.

You don't have to deal with this , you choose to do it. You have decided that because the guy has demonstrated poor behavior in some manner in the past that he may have improperly installed gas appliances now. Permits and inspections don't provide for safe installations, they find bad ones. If the bad behavior in the past was related to installing/building/repairing some part of the house then perhaps your fear of his not installing the equipment properly has merit but if he was a A**hat about parking then how does that relate? As others have pointed out, if there was a problem with the installation it likely would have reared it's ugly head by now. If he did not get a permit that is a problem between him and the county. Now all that being said, if you are nervous or uncomfortable leaving next door to this potential problem then by all means check with the county to see if he got a permit. I'm not sure what you can do if he did not. Will they come out to inspect his house if he did not get a permit? I don't know if they have the right to come in if he does not grant it to them. Also what exactly are the laws in your county, do they allow homeowners to do the work themselves? If he did not get a permit will they just examine it and slap his wrist for not getting a permit in advance?

I do feel bad for you having to deal with this but understand that a small part of the problem is you deciding to play cop.
 
Richard said:
State. Propane or NG.
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TMetzinger said:
Same for us, for NG heaters anyway.
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Shows how much the state knows. NG will rise. Propane, sure, understandable. But natural gas - that rises. 18" or 18mm ain't going to make a lick of difference.

Of course if you are one of those idiots that store gasoline in your house...
 
woodstock said:
Again let me state how ****ed off I am that I have to deal with this. I found out by asking the new tenant if he had gas appliances because I didn't want to ask the owner.
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Solution: Live in a house, not a townhouse.
 
Ed, you know, that's a thought. I'm close to paying off both the townhouse and the house at the beach. Maybe I should divert some of that into getting a SFH in VA. Unless the next depression is nigh and I'll be glad to live so cheaply.

I see that some anonymous idiot single starred this post. Really? hahahahahah
 
EdFred said:
Shows how much the state knows. NG will rise. Propane, sure, understandable. But natural gas - that rises. 18" or 18mm ain't going to make a lick of difference.

Of course if you are one of those idiots that store gasoline in your house...
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No sorry, I meant that we put NG heaters on the floor. I was agreeing with YOU.
 
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