Garmin Shocker: Inexpensive Retrofit Autopilots For Wide Range Of Planes

TommyTBone said:
The big question will be: will they obsoletize it in a dozen years or so by dropping support of it just like they do for so many of their products?

Forced obsolescence is a game they play quite well and seems to be the Garmin "churning business" model. Interestingly, we seem to unquestioningly accept it as the new norm.
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It's not exactly their fault. Technology moves so fast these days that by the time a unit is certified, it's *already* using "obsolete" parts. That means that Garmin (or whoever) has to buy enough parts *before the thing is even certified* to last them *long enough to produce every unit they're ever going to produce.*

That's expensive - And it means that as the parts supply dwindles, they have to discontinue things. That's likely why the 530 was discontinued before the 430.

My Cherokee has a 40 year-old KX155 in it that can still be worked on, and was just last winter.
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Correction: *Could have* still been work*ed* on. Honeywell is rounding up all of the parts, all of the service manuals, etc. and no longer allowing shops to service their equipment. Seems they're trying very hard to become the next Narco.

Having a King autopilot that I've put probably close to 10 AMUs into, I'm VERY happy that Garmin is getting into the retrofit game. Hopefully I've made my last repair to the KFC150.

I'll avoid their products, thanks.
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Whose will you use? King is at the tail end of their long, slow death. Avidyne's reliability and aftermarket support is horrific. Garmin is really the only game in town that I'd spend any money on. :(

denverpilot said:
That G300XL works just fine for what it can do, and what it can do is light years ahead of anything even available in a cockpit when I started flying. For many folks it fills the exact mission of what they're doing.
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He said "when it breaks."

I've been hearing "gadget snobs" talk about the KLN89B being worthless for several years now. It works just fine, thankyouverymuch... But it's still getting replaced with a GTN this fall, because its screen is starting to fail, and it's not worth putting any money into. That pretty much means it's obsolete.

arnoha said:
If you could reasonably trade out your entire panel for something better every 10 years, wouldn't you do it? If that cost $10,000 instead of $100,000 to make everything new?
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Abso-freaking-lutely.

The plane is 20 years old now, and the only things it's had done are the transponder and a 406 ELT. If an entirely new panel was $10K, I'm sure it would have gotten a 530W 10 years ago, and it'd still be getting the GTN this year (and at a much lower cost, too).

What's so compelling about the GFC500 is that it's not only the most capable retrofit autopilot available (along with its big brother the GFC600), that capability comes in at a price that's a small fraction of what such a thing used to cost. For reference, an S-TEC System 30, 2-axis with altitude hold and GPSS is about $15,000 plus install street price and doesn't even come close to the capability of the new Garmins.

Kiddo's Driver said:
Did I read that right? Certified AP $2,200 including 2 servos?
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No. That's the experimental version. The certified version is $5K before servos.

TruTrak is also up to something - I would expect some announcements on Monday. Nearly every single product on their web site is showing up as "sold out."
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Correction: *Could have* still been work*ed* on. Honeywell is rounding up all of the parts, all of the service manuals, etc. and no longer allowing shops to service their equipment. Seems they're trying very hard to become the next Narco.
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They aren't on the radios. They are on all of their other products. The "depot repair" price on you 89B is like $2800 and on a 94 is over $3400.

But they relented ok the KX-155/165 series. Their dealers about handed them their heads.
 
This thread is proof that pilots can't be helped. Garmin could give these boxes away for free and pilots would be complaining that they don't throw in a discounted install on top of that.
 
denverpilot said:
They aren't on the radios. They are on all of their other products. The "depot repair" price on you 89B is like $2800 and on a 94 is over $3400.

But they relented ok the KX-155/165 series. Their dealers about handed them their heads.
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Ah, hadn't heard that.

Still, you can get an entire unit for those repair prices on the 89B/94.

And have you seen the KSN 770? That thing is a joke. They sat down and figured that they should do a new GPS that worked with both touchscreen AND buttons, and that's the last good idea they had. One of the worst UIs I've ever used. You shouldn't have to take out the manual to go direct to... And I'm not even exaggerating. It's awful.

I have no idea why Honeywell bought BK. They are circling the drain. Makes a good tax write-off I guess?
 
weilke said:
This thread is proof that pilots can't be helped. Garmin could give these boxes away for free and pilots would be complaining that they don't throw in a discounted install on top of that.
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??? I haven't seen anyone complaining ???

You are buying an electronic box that costs more than a new compact car. A little discussion seems completely normal.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Still, you can get an entire unit for those repair prices on the 89B/94.
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Heh. I did exactly that. The KLN94 in my SP had a bad screen when I purchased it. (No malfeasance there, I knew of the issue when I bought it.) When I flew commercial to Florida to pick it, I hand carried a used KLN94 I had purchased for $1800. There was no way to replace the screen only for that price.

I cracked the busted one open out of curiosity. Found an Intel 386EX in it. I paid $1800 for a 386 in 2015. The hell is wrong with me...

002.JPG
 
By the way. It's Friday. I can't go to OSH. And I had ONE beer...

Nobody has even mentioned that the thread title and urban dictionary definition of "shocker" does usually feel like Garmin's relationship with your wallet!
 
denverpilot said:
Ugh I have. That thing has the worst UI of any piece of avionics electronics I've ever touched.
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FTFY.

It's worse than my 1998 Motorola Nextel phone. The one that I had to hit *# together and then 7 and then 8 just to change the freaking ringer volume. Worse than THAT. :vomit:
 
arnoha said:
If you could reasonably trade out your entire panel for something better every 10 years, wouldn't you do it? If that cost $10,000 instead of $100,000 to make everything new? You wouldn't even think about saving that old radio or GPS.
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flyingcheesehead said:
Abso-freaking-lutely.
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Ummm...no.

I could have a $25k bass boat, I don't, I have a $10k boat and catch just as many fish as the guy who does.

I could have $25k motorcycle, I don't, I have a $10k bike and ride just as far, just as comfortably as the guy who does.

I could have a $50k convertible. I don't, I have a $25k convertible and enjoy it just as much as the guy who does.

I could have the latest, greatest home theatre system with blu ray and surround sound. I don't, I have a 50" TV being driven by an older laptop and a stereo out of the 80's (with a freakin' tube amp even!!) and I enjoy my movies just as much as the guy who does.

And...

I could have a $250k late model airplane with a glass panel. I don't, I have a 49 year old, $50k airplane with adequate avionics and I have just as much fun (maybe more), just as safely as the guy who does.

More importantly, I have ALL these things to enjoy because I don't shoot my entire wad on one or two. I don't have the need to keep up with the Jones and I have a lot more money in my pocket as a result.

That's the way I roll, but to each his/her own.
 
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TommyTBone said:
Ummm...no.

I have a $10k boat and catch just as many fish as the guy who does.
I have a $10k bike and ride just as far, just as comfortably as the guy who does.
I have a $25k convertible and enjoy it just as much as the guy who does.
I have a 50" TV being driven by an older laptop and a stereo out of the 80's (with a freakin' tube amp even!!)
And...
I have a 49 year old, $50k airplane with adequate avionics and I have just as much fun (maybe more), just as safely as the guy who does.

I don't have the need to keep up with the Jones and I have a lot more money in my pocket as a result.

That's the way I roll, but to each his/her own.
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Ok, I edited your post a little, but let me tell you TBone ... you ARE the Jones. Sounds like you know how to enjoy you life. Killer.
 
GFC500 Speculation Alert – The G5 Airplane Flight Manual Supplement shows that it can only display navigation information from the #1 radio, so you need a 430(w)/530(w)/650/750 to get the autopilot to track both VHF navigation and GPS. You cannot hook a plain 400/500/625/725 to the G5 and then hook a an SL30/GNC to it and do both GPS and VHF navigation.

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-12_02.pdf on page 21 of 25

I have found no evidence that the G5/GFC500 can be interfaced with more than one navigation radio at the same time and swich between which one is displayed/tracked.

Hopefully I'm wrong because that kinda stinks. I want to hook a #2 VHF nav to it in addition to the #1 GPS/NAV.
 
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bnt83 said:
GFC500 Speculation Alert – The G5 Airplane Flight Manual Supplement shows that it can only display navigation information from the #1 radio, so you need a 430(w)/530(w)/650/750 to get the autopilot to track both VHF navigation and GPS. You cannot hook a plain 400/500/625/725 to the G5 and then hook a an SL30/GNC to it and do both GPS and VHF navigation.

http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-12_02.pdf on page 21 of 25

I have found no evidence that the G5/GFC500 can be interfaced with more than one navigation radio at the same time and swich between which one is displayed/tracked.

Hopefully I'm wrong because that kinda stinks. I want to hook a #2 VHF nav to it in addition to the #1 GPS/NAV.
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Yes, only 1 nav, and no TAS or wind speeds either. It does have its limitations. I don't know about dual G5s, can you connect nav1 to one and nav2 to the second G5?
 
I think somebody said you needed a WAAS GPS to fly Q/T-routes. I don't think that's correct.

From the AIM:

3. Area Navigation (RNAV) Routes. (a) Published RNAV routes, including Q−Routes and T−Routes, can be flight planned for use by aircraft with RNAV capability, subject to any limitations or requirements noted on en route charts, in applicable Advisory Circulars, or by NOTAM. RNAV routes are depicted in blue on aeronautical charts and are identified by the letter “Q” or “T” followed by the airway number (for example, Q−13, T−205). Published RNAV routes are RNAV−2 except when specifically charted as RNAV−1. These routes require system performance currently met by GPS, GPS/WAAS, or DME/DME/IRU RNAV systems that satisfy the criteria discussed in AC 90−100A, U.S. Terminal and En Route Area Navigation (RNAV) Operations. NOTE−
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bnt83 said:
I have found no evidence that the G5/GFC500 can be interfaced with more than one navigation radio at the same time and swich between which one is displayed/tracked.

Hopefully I'm wrong because that kinda stinks. I want to hook a #2 VHF nav to it in addition to the #1 GPS/NAV.
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Page 81 and beyond in this seems to hint that dual inputs are possible in single and dual (a couple pages later) G5 configurations. (They show a config for a 480 plus an additional Garmin Nav source.)

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/pdf/G5INSTALL.pdf

You can probably read that better than I and tell, though.
 
I sent an email for clarification, hopefully they asnswer clearly lol.

I'm confused, the FAA Approved Airplane Flight manual supplement document # 190-01112-12 Rev 2, implies that the G5 can switch between multiple navigation sources in the table on page 18 of 25 but there are no interconnect drawings that show that being supported. The same FAA Approved Airplane Flight manual supplement says in section 3.5 that only the #1 navigation source can be displayed.

Also, the GAD29 pinout drawing of connector J292 shows additional ARINC 429 ports that are not shown in the interconnect drawings, reference STC install manual 190-01112-10 Rev 7.

This raises several questions,

Can the G5 display multiple sources or not? If I have a GTN-625 can I add a GNC-255 and conmnect both to the G5 HSI using the STC?

Can I connect a GTN-650 (using both VHF & GPS Navigation) and hook an additional VHF nav radio as a #2 nav (GNC255/SL30)?

Will the GFC500 track multiple navigation sources or be stuck with 1?


That all
 
That all aside even the eperimental install manual says it will only display the #1 navigation source. "If the source is a GTN/GNS both GPS and VLOC can be displayed"
 
bnt83 said:
I sent an email for clarification, hopefully they aasnswer clearly lol.

I'm confused, the FAA Approved Airplane Flight manual supplement document # 190-01112-12 Rev 2, implies that the G5 can switch between multiple navigation sources in the table on page 18 of 25 but there are no interconnect drawings that show that being supported. The same FAA Approved Airplane Flight manual supplement says in section 3.5 that only the #1 navigation source can be displayed.

Also, the GAD29 pinout drawing of connector J292 shows additional ARINC 429 ports that are not shown in the interconnect drawings, reference STC install manual 190-01112-10 Rev 7.

This raises several questions,

Can the G5 display multiple sources or not? If I have a GTN-625 can I add a GNC-255 and conmnect both to the G5 HSI using the STC?

Can I connect a GTN-650 (using both VHF & GPS Navigation) and hook an additional VHF nav radio as a #2 nav (GNC255/SL30)?

Will the GFC500 track multiple navigation sources or be stuck with 1?
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If their customer service is similar to others I've contacted you'll get an ambiguous "Yes" which may or may not apply to one or all of your questions. Followed by a "but please consult..." which negates the Yes and is a way to kick the can down the line politely..
 
I think I screwed up, the AFMS doesn't show that table only the STC pilot's guide does.
 
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