Burrrrn. Walked into that one.
Garmin just dropped a bomb on the avionics market...
- Thread starter flyingcheesehead
- Start date
Jim_CAK
Line Up and Wait
Anyone have an idea of what an ADF and associated hardware weighs? We have one in our plane and I wondered if it was worth the expense to take it out.
For the Narco 841:
Receiver: 2.70 lbs. (1.20 Kg)
Tray: 0.7 lbs. (0.30 Kg)
Indicator: 0.75 lbs. (0.34 Kg)
Combined Loop/Sense Antenna: 3.60 lbs. (1.60 Kg)
For the King KR 87: 3.2 lbs.
Don't know if it includes the tray but does include the indicator
For the Collins ADF-900: 7.2 pounds but that's just the box, no indicator
So people are giving me a hard time over 4lbs??? You guys kill me.
Jim_CAK
Line Up and Wait
Thanks Murphey. We just had our avionics stack updated and the ADF is in the side panel. I did not even ask how much to have it removed.
3-4 pounds is not getting me excited about paying anything to have it removed.
3-4 pounds is not getting me excited about paying anything to have it removed.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
Not giving you a hard time. Simply saying I would take it out if it was me. Its your plane, do what you want.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
CMI is not my spot, but yes, mine has an ILS on the same as the NDB. Can't you just let me be nostalgic? There are a few examples where an NDB does not have another non-GPS option. KAAA is one of them to rwy 21, although if I am reading it right, the VOR approach can you get you lower than the NDB approach and you could circle to 21. Keeping the ADF would still get me Cubs games on WGN though.
Or you just fly the RNAV (GPS) to 21 straight in, which gets you lower yet.
And sure, you can be nostalgic. Pull the ADF and add it to a nice nostalgic home simulator rig.
You can also get the Cubs games and every other game you want on XM... Just sayin'.
Yeah, we know all about you professional guys. Vectors to the ILS every time, unless you're in the sim.
Maybe so. The FAA has done a pretty good job of creating GPS approaches and eliminating all of the "weird" ones. Not only the NDBs, but it's been a long time since I've seen an LDA, SDF, VOR/DME RNAV, NDB/DME, and even LOC BC has gotten quite rare.
I really should have shot some NDB approaches before I pulled it. I had a REALLY nice setup for NDB: KR 87, slaved eRMI, and an HSI (which doesn't give you anything directly related to the NDB, but does make it a lot easier to visualize your wind correction).
In the 5 1/2 years I had the plane with that setup, I didn't use it once.
And it does NOT include the antenna. When the guy at the avionics shop handed it to me, I almost dropped it. It's physically fairly large, but covered in plastic. It's a lot heavier than it looks!
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2011
- Messages
- 1,635
- Location
- State of Confusion
- Display Name
Display name:
chartbundle
One nice thing about having all the approach plates in a database is I can do reports:
32 LDAs still on the books
2 SDF(MFI and MOR) http://www.chartbundle.com/qc/KMFI_SDF and http://www.chartbundle.com/qc/KMOR_SDF
427 NDB(including NDB/DME)
19 NDB/DME
611 VOR/DME
63 LOC BC or LOC/DME BC
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2016
- Messages
- 4,898
- Display Name
Display name:
Ari
Under a previous owner, my Arrow had an avionics upgrade that included removing the ADF. In its place, hey installed a PS Engineering AM/FM/CD player. You aren't the only person in the world who doesn't want to choose between throwing away the old ADF and listening to AM radio.
I'm building an experimental plane that will serve for IFR travel. I spend a lot of my time torn about whether to put in a VOR/ILS receiver or not. This new product announcement has not helped me sleep at night. A GTN 650 runs $9,900. The GTX 45R is another $3,400. I can replace both of those with the GNX 375 for $8,000 and a GTR 20 radio for $1,000, and save $4,300 to get all the same capabilities other than not being able to fly an ILS and not being able to navigate under IFR when there is a GPS outage. So I looked around at the places I actually fly into. A couple have an LPV minimum of 250' where the ILS minimum is 200'. One of those has a 200' LPV minimum for the other end of the runway.
In perspective, losing ILS capability would save almost enough money to add a stormscope. I probably would just 'pocket' (read: not have to beg, borrow, or steal) the extra money instead, but really, between an ILS and a stormscope, one of them will actually come in handy every time you're in the clouds, while the other almost never will.
EDIT to add: I guess I have a few questions that I didn't see answered yet, and sadly missed the bus on getting them answered by the OP's diligent efforts:
1. Does the GNX 375 send navigation data to the G3X Touch without a GAD 29 ARINC interface? (Would save another $600.)
2. Does the GNX 375 receive pressure altitude data from the G3X Touch so it can encode same in the transponder signal without an encoder? (Would save static line plumbing.)
3. Will I be able to get a GNX 375 for experimental installation in the comfort of my own home or do I need to fly my transponder-less airplane to a Garmin dealer to have them plug one in?
Last edited:
KA44B antenna: 4.2 lbs
https://www.seaerospace.com/sales/product/BendixKing/KA-44B
KA44A antenna: 9lbs
https://www.seaerospace.com/sales/product/BendixKing/KA-44
Can you please give a couple examples of the VOR DME RNAV? Perhaps one each east coast, Midwest and west coast?
Thsnks.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2011
- Messages
- 1,635
- Location
- State of Confusion
- Display Name
Display name:
chartbundle
Sorry, I missed that there wasn't a comma between VOR/DME and RNAV. There are none I can find with that naming(or any RNAV which don't mention GPS or RNP).
BGF_Yankee
Line Up and Wait
Up until 2 years ago when I had my first panel done, I was still flying the NDB approach to get into my home base of KBGF. I didn't have GPS approach capability, so the NDB was all I had. They still exist out there...
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
12, but 9 in American NDBs.
You should ask them what size pants they wear and how that affects their weight and balance....
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Cool! I wish I had access to that database. I'll be there's some interesting stuff in there.
So, it's official that the VOR/DME RNAV approaches are gone, it looks like.
Unit74
Final Approach
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2014
- Messages
- 6,992
- Display Name
Display name:
Unit74
Slant A...... All the way!
I've had a GPS box since 2014 and it still actually feels like cheating to me. I feel guilty knowing I spent all that time doing turn ten, twist ten and Turn, Time Twist, Throttle, Talk, Track to just **** it away and let the box tell the other box what to do and click it all off at DH. I am actually more comfortable flying a VOR approach than a magenta line honestly....
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
4 less pounds in the panel means there can be 4 more pounds in the pilot seat. Win/win.You should ask them what size pants they wear and how that affects their weight and balance....
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
They're all gone... Verified elsewhere. I did manage to find an old plate for one, though - But this one had a GPS overlay too, so not a "pure" VOR/DME RNAV. But it'll serve as an example:
You can see here that each of the waypoints has a frequency, an identifier, a radial, and a distance on the bottom line inside the box. Georgetown, TEPLE, and the unnamed MAP all used the DCA VOR on 111.0, with different radials and distances.
The most popular unit for flying these was the KNS 80 RNAV unit:
This unit could hold four waypoints that you programmed in - In the lower right quadrant of the display above, you see "USE 1" and "DSP 1" which indicates that you're navigating on the first waypoint and looking at the info for the first waypoint. You could look at a different one than you were using so that you could program in the next one. Hitting the "USE" button would switch to the next one in sequence for navigation, and hitting "DSP" would show the info for the next one on screen.
Essentially, the way it worked was to use both the VOR and DME to allow you to put a "ghost VOR" anywhere you wanted within the service volume. So, in the case of the approach above, you would program 111.0/324.7/5.9 in for frequency/radial/distance (hitting the DATA button in between each and using the knob to put the numbers in) for the Georgetown waypoint, which would then act like a VOR. So, you would twist your OBS so that the needle was centered and the flag was on "TO" to fly direct to Georgetown.
Next, you'd hit "DSP" to display the #2 waypoint, tune in 111.0/212.0/5.0 for TEPLE, hit "DSP" to display #3, tune 111.0/199.9/1.0 for the MAP, and hopefully by this time you still haven't crossed Georgetown! As a matter of good practices, I would always hit DSP until the DSP and USE numbers were the same, unless I was actively inputting a new waypoint.
When you get to Georgetown, the flag would flip to FROM, you would twist the OBS to 175, and turn to intercept. Once intercepted and tracking and within range of the next waypoint (TEPLE), hit "USE" to flip the USE value to #2, which is where we programmed in TEPLE. The flag would flip "To" and you might have to make a slight adjustment to re-center.
When you get to TEPLE, same thing pretty much. Say we wanted to do a teardrop entry, we could twist the OBS to 185 and we would be *tracking* 30º off the FAC outbound, so we'd have a built-in wind correction. Fly a minute, begin the turn inbound, twist the OBS to 035 for the inbound course (flag goes back to "To"), intercept, track inbound. When the flag flips to From, you're at the FAF inbound, begin your descent. Hit "USE" to flip to using the MAP as your ghost VOR, descend to minimums, and if you don't see the field when the flag flips to From, you go missed, make a climbing left turn, hit USE twice to get back to #1 which was Georgetown, twist the OBS to center the needle and proceed direct Georgetown, and when the flag flips, enter the hold and twist the OBS to 145.
I don't think I ever shot a VOR/DME RNAV approach, but I definitely used it en route on a rental Arrow III (N3327M) flying from Madison (KMSN) to Ames (KAMW) for a PoA gathering once. No GPS, but instead of following the airways, I filed a waypoint of the DBQ 360 radial at 10 miles or something like that.
We were "real pilots" back then.
WannFly
Final Approach
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Does that mean I don’t have to do it in IFR practical test?
Kinda hard for them to make you do it if it doesn't exist.
And yes, one of the things I found in looking into this was a thread where Nate posted a reference to the FAA removing all VOR/DME RNAV questions from the instrument written test a year or two ago.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
hindsight2020
duats used to give you the option of spitting out a theta rho version of your flight plan for the purposes of being able to file slant india within the legal service volumes of the navaids your desired route needed in order to draw the direct lines our slant golf affords us these days. i always found that finctionality nifty.
what that also meant, was that you could keep a kns 80 in the plane for filing purposes, and fly direct every which way while using portable GPSs. keep the rho theta chronology updated for legalities sake, but hey, cheaper than a wonderbox installation. If you aint cheating you aint trying.
we still make large use of the theta rho formatting in the military, due to the high prevalence of slant india equipment in our ancient combat air force believe or not (a crime, given the nature of burden of our defense budget on our domestic national priorities, let alone an expectation of returns on investment for said expenditure). i think they are slant golf by now, but when i was still flying the thing, the buff was slant india all the way. try making friends with the filer for a non stop lousiana to guam, all in theta rho and lat longs. and since we re all among friends now, yall really wanna know how we got ourselves to that post card in the southwest pacific? a GPS496 chilling on a bean bag stand on the glareshield. sure, ol navos downstairs hand jammimg coordinates and crosschecking INS for 15 hours, but upstairs that thing was basically the real banana.
what that also meant, was that you could keep a kns 80 in the plane for filing purposes, and fly direct every which way while using portable GPSs. keep the rho theta chronology updated for legalities sake, but hey, cheaper than a wonderbox installation. If you aint cheating you aint trying.
we still make large use of the theta rho formatting in the military, due to the high prevalence of slant india equipment in our ancient combat air force believe or not (a crime, given the nature of burden of our defense budget on our domestic national priorities, let alone an expectation of returns on investment for said expenditure). i think they are slant golf by now, but when i was still flying the thing, the buff was slant india all the way. try making friends with the filer for a non stop lousiana to guam, all in theta rho and lat longs. and since we re all among friends now, yall really wanna know how we got ourselves to that post card in the southwest pacific? a GPS496 chilling on a bean bag stand on the glareshield. sure, ol navos downstairs hand jammimg coordinates and crosschecking INS for 15 hours, but upstairs that thing was basically the real banana.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yep, that's more like it. Now, consider that many of those cables are built one wire at a time, and the removal of existing boxes and wires... I tell you what, looking at the plane when it was in the middle of an upgrade was scary. It'll make you think there's no way they're gonna get all that back together correctly, and your plane is going to be dead and you'll be in the poor house!
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
ya but.....why would you want to do that to a Tiger?
hindsight2020
Final Approach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
hindsight2020
Um, that already exists and it's called a 625, and it's too expensive. We're trying to go the cheaper route here homey. The "I want more expensive and bigger avionics" boat is over on beech talk I'm afraid.
j/k
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2015
- Messages
- 1,027
- Display Name
Display name:
Cluemeister
A few of the mockups Garmin had at snf.
just pull the cb sled style
Sitting midway in the panel of the EAA B-17 is (or was, last time I was in it, about 5 yrs ago) was a Garmin Pilot III.
hindsight2020
Final Approach
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2010
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
hindsight2020
Oh, then you pretty much flew a B-52 then. I wish I was joking. I respected the thing, and it always got me home, mostly because I knew what it was designed to do, and most importantly, what it wasn't. If the Country ever voluntold me to go get shot out the sky over some foreign land and another political boondoggle, I'd prefer not to do it in an airplane with the RCS of mid-size American city, and the turn radius of a cruise ship at flank speed.
I can vouch for that handheld GPS though. That thing was money over the Pacific. I've never stared at a magenta line for 15 straight hours harder in my life LOL. 
I was a student pilot and always had my hiker's GPS turned on in the back seat during lessons. All the CFIs were astounded at the track of patterns, clearing turns, etc. Had to add airports as waypoints by hand. I remember flying commercial in the late 90s while working for Boeing. I had the GPS on, and either the copilot or pilot came back to visit and was completely flabbergasted at this stupid little $125 widget. Or maybe because as I boarded, I handed the flight attendant my Boeing business card and my student pilots card and asked if I could use the GPS during flight. Loved that Boeing card....got me in and out of very interesting places.
Just switch it to this screen and then try to forget that you dropped $10k+labor.ya but.....why would you want to do that to a Tiger?
Unit74
Final Approach
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2014
- Messages
- 6,992
- Display Name
Display name:
Unit74
Just switch it to this screen and then try to forget that you dropped $10k in labor + the screen
View attachment 73212
FTFY....
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's called the GNS 500W, and it's been around for... Well, around 20 years.
But, you might want to join us in the 21st century instead.
Is that first attachment from the certified or experimental area? I ask because I've been trying to get a straight answer as to whether the 10+7 combo will allow the 7" screen to switch between PFD and MFD and allow the 10" screen to split.
In their webinar, Garmin specifically said that the certified 10+7 configuration was strictly a 10" PFD (only) and a 7" MFD (only). The experimental ones will for sure allow you to split the 10" and switch the 7" back and forth. There's a couple of Garmin reps who swear on Beechtalk that the certified version will do the switching.
Indiana_Pilot
Line Up and Wait
Does anyone have the installation manual for the GNX 375? Is it only a dealer only purchase still?
OkieAviator
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2014
- Messages
- 1,865
- Display Name
Display name:
OkieAviator
texasclouds
En-Route
Anyone get a 375 installed yet??
No. Scheduled for November, though.
Dithering between th 175 and 375. I have 2 perfectly good radios, and either 175 or 375 will fit in the empty space in the stack. Might be able to sell the 2nd radio for maybe $700-900. No rush to decide, install is scheduled for next Feb’20