Garmin GTN 650, GTX 345, and Flightstream 510 AHRS to ForeFlight followup / Approach oddity

[denverpilot]

Really this is for @flyingcheesehead but I promised I’d check and did today. The AHRS to ForeFlight works.

I have all the various firmware versions of it all written down if you need them. Most current as of roughly a month ago. Whatever those are/were.

This is, of course, with the 345 Bluetooth disabled and all the data going to ForeFlight via the Flightstream 510’s Bluetooth.

As an aside, I was surprised the majority of the commutation to tablets is done over Bluetooth and WiFi is really only in the FS510 for updates. I would have thought it would be easier for most devices to find and grab the airplanes WiFi, no pairing needed.

Practically, it doesn’t seem matter much.

Now, the oddity and maybe it’s a “works as designed”. Had ForeFlight set up for a direct flight KAPA-KCOS and connected to the GTN. Sent that wimpy flight plan into the GTN wirelessly just to do it.

Flew down there, requested the RNAV and got the RNAV 35L. Used the GTN to add the procedure and activated it with VTF.

iPad asked to accept the route change and I did. Here’s what it appeared to do... ForeFlight inserted the approach ahead of KCOS. Okay fine. Normal.

Then I purposely flew the published missed. The usual suspend at the end of the approach and then accepting the published missed, and the GTN immediately requested the climb and then the turn.

(By the way, that’s just freaking awesomeness for this old steam guy, but y’all knew that.)

It also did its GTN thing and built the hole at ADANE and the entry. God this thing is fun. Haha.

Anyway, looked back over at the iPad and it still had KAPA, the approach, and KCOS as the planned route. It never did the update for the missed or added ADANE.

I’ll have to read some more to see if that’s normal, but anyone flying with Flightstream 210 or 510 hooked to ForeFlight want to comment on how published missed approach stuff usually works or doesn’t work to the tablet for you?

Anyway, what a boatload of fun. Also got to play with the derived/fake “Visual” approaches the GTN will create out of nothing for Runway 28 back at KAPA. Yeah, you can just load the RNAV real approach for that runway in there as a backup in visual conditions, too, but I wanted to see what it did in that Visual mode. Pretty nifty... very easy to get a feel for too high/low and centerline with the ol’ crosshairs right there to glance at with two button presses... Visual button comes up on the screen when you’re headed for an airport, and then just select the runway.

By the way, none of that showed up in ForeFlight either but I wasn’t really expecting anything the Garmin created on its own to properly transfer over.

Leaving ADANE I had typed ADANE KAPA into ForeFlight manually and then pushed that as a “new” flight plan into the GTN. Mostly to prove the two way com was still working for flight plan stuff, since traffic and other things were still working.

Oh and I was doing all of this from the right seat, just because. VMC. Totally able to look outside because this was avionics testing, and buttonology tweaking for me, integrating stuff into my procedures, and not training. Just checking off “let’s see if/how THIS works” kinda stuff. So far no big surprises other than the missed not showing up on the tablet under ForeFlight. Haven’t tried with Garmin Pilot yet. Suspect they’ll behave the same. Data was either sent or it wasn’t.

 

[Ryan F.]

Nate,

As you know I have a pretty similar configuration here - GTN650 w/ FS510, GTX345, and a G5. I'm still a revision behind on the FS510 update. Having a devil of a time finding a dealer up here who knows how to flash the card to the newest version, which I understand to be 2.33. (Crazy, but true.)

I have had similar issues with FF and the GTN with regards to loading approach procedures and having them sync properly. It seems to work more reliably in Garmin Pilot. In general, GP works "better" with the FS510/GTX345 combo in its current slightly screwy state. I am reasonably confident that 2.33 will resolve most of these issues, so I'm interested to see that you're still having the approach loading issue in FF.

As soon as I get the 2.33 update for the 510 I'll try to flesh this out a bit more. In the meantime, GP seems to work fine, and honestly "re-selecting" the approach in FF isn't that big of a deal, but it is a tad annoying.

One other aside, I agree with you about wifi. One significant limitation of the bluetooth is the fact that you can only pair two devices at a time to the FS510/GTX345. I use two iPads in the cockpit, but I have an iPhone also, which I'd have liked to also have available for use. Not really thrilled about that limitation about the Stratus/Stratux allowed as many connections as you would like via wifi.

 

[bnt83]

Nate,

As you know I have a pretty similar configuration here - GTN650 w/ FS510, GTX345, and a G5. I'm still a revision behind on the FS510 update. Having a devil of a time finding a dealer up here who knows how to flash the card to the newest version, which I understand to be 2.33. (Crazy, but true.)

I have had similar issues with FF and the GTN with regards to loading approach procedures and having them sync properly. It seems to work more reliably in Garmin Pilot. In general, GP works "better" with the FS510/GTX345 combo in its current slightly screwy state. I am reasonably confident that 2.33 will resolve most of these issues, so I'm interested to see that you're still having the approach loading issue in FF.

As soon as I get the 2.33 update for the 510 I'll try to flesh this out a bit more. In the meantime, GP seems to work fine, and honestly "re-selecting" the approach in FF isn't that big of a deal, but it is a tad annoying.

One other aside, I agree with you about wifi. One significant limitation of the bluetooth is the fact that you can only pair two devices at a time to the FS510/GTX345. I use two iPads in the cockpit, but I have an iPhone also, which I'd have liked to also have available for use. Not really thrilled about that limitation about the Stratus/Stratux allowed as many connections as you would like via wifi.

Have you ever had the 510 software updated?

The instructions on how to perform the update is right in the service bulletin announcing the 2.33 availability... (duh test) Or is there some other issue causing an update problem?

 

[Ryan F.]

Have you ever had the 510 software updated?

The instructions on how to perform the update is right in the service bulletin announcing the 2.33 availability... (duh test) Or is there some other issue causing an update problem?

I have been under the impression that only dealers can flash the cards to the new version. Am I mistaken? Is it possible for end users to flash their own cards?

 

[bnt83]

I have been under the impression that only dealers can flash the cards to the new version. Am I mistaken? Is it possible for end users to flash their own cards?

You are correct, its a dealer function, but they don't know how or what?

 

[Ryan F.]

You are correct, its a dealer function, but they don't know how or what?

Yeah. He couldn't figure out how to do it. Don't laugh... he's actually a really good installer, does great work, but really struggles with anything that requires getting a laptop computer online. (Sigh)

Thinking about trying to find a dealer I could just mail the card to, I guess.

 

[bnt83]

Yeah. He couldn't figure out how to do it. Don't laugh... he's actually a really good installer, does great work, but really struggles with anything that requires getting a laptop computer online. (Sigh)

Thinking about trying to find a dealer I could just mail the card to, I guess.

Maybe you can help your dealer learn something new and help you

 

[BGF_Yankee]

The update to the FS510 will be done via the Garmin Pilot app with a dealer/installer subscription. I'm not sure whether or not it can be done "physically" between the 510 card and a computer. And don't feel bad...I was the first customer the guys at Sarasota Avionics/XP Services here in Tennessee had to update so it took us all a few minutes to really figure it out. I'm sure they've done it several times since though.

 

[Tennis]

Good stuff to hear about looking at this set up

 

[denverpilot]

I have had similar issues with FF and the GTN with regards to loading approach procedures and having them sync properly. It seems to work more reliably in Garmin Pilot. In general, GP works "better" with the FS510/GTX345 combo in its current slightly screwy state. I am reasonably confident that 2.33 will resolve most of these issues, so I'm interested to see that you're still having the approach loading issue in FF.

Something in the back of my head tells me we’re on 2.30 not 2.33 but the paper isn’t here right now. Just as an added data point. Which would mean we aren’t on the latest after all... I’ll check.

 

[WannFly]

@denverpilot what was your reasoning for going with Garmin? I was comparing the features and looks like IFD 440 has far more feature than what u get OOB, like their IFD app which kinda becomes a MFD etc whereas you have to add a flightstream for similar capability in Garmin. I am sure you have weighed all pros and cons before choosing one over another, just curious to know how u came to conclusion and decided with the big G.

 

[denverpilot]

@denverpilot what was your reasoning for going with Garmin? I was comparing the features and looks like IFD 440 has far more feature than what u get OOB, like their IFD app which kinda becomes a MFD etc whereas you have to add a flightstream for similar capability in Garmin. I am sure you have weighed all pros and cons before choosing one over another, just curious to know how u came to conclusion and decided with the big G.

I can’t say I made a big matrix of it all, I really liked what Garmin was doing and think the next step for the airplane someday is G5 and their new autopilot, down the road a bit perhaps. That option really wasn’t going to work as well with the Avidyne stuff. Garmin is definitely integrating things to keep you in the church of the big G. Kinda like Cisco in the data world.

My co-owner did some other analysis and may have had other ideas and reasons besides this.

 

[Ryan F.]

@denverpilot what was your reasoning for going with Garmin? I was comparing the features and looks like IFD 440 has far more feature than what u get OOB, like their IFD app which kinda becomes a MFD etc whereas you have to add a flightstream for similar capability in Garmin. I am sure you have weighed all pros and cons before choosing one over another, just curious to know how u came to conclusion and decided with the big G.

You didn't ask me, but I figured you might want one more datapoint.

I have already been through a major panel upgrade in 2002. At that time I wanted Garmin, but it was a Bendix-King shop and they talked me into going with an all-King stack. I already had a King audio panel and transponder, and they sold me on a KLN-94 and two KX-155s rather than a Garmin 430 or 530.

That ended up being a big mistake. The KLN-94 was actually a pretty good GPS, but life-limited and never tended to by BK (now Honeywell) in terms of updates or improvements. There was no WAAS upgrade path. Further, people simply want Garmin. They don't want King. Garmin panels help to maintain the residual value of aircraft more than any other avionics manufacturer who builds stuff for light piston airplanes. (That's my opinion based on personal experience, not a fact.)

So the second time around I decided to go with the market leader. The GTN650 is an excellent box. So is the IFD440, but it doesn't live in the Garmin eco-verse so it's hard to leverage the investment across the panel. For example, the G5s hooked up to the GTN650 (or GNS series) will allow GPSS for legacy autopilots. But that won't work with the IFD440. And the GTX345 integrates beautifully with the GTN650, putting traffic and weather on the 650's screen. It all just works really nice together.

When you pick one piece of gear for its own merits but don't consider how it impacts the growth of your panel over time, there can be a price to pay for that. Not saying the IFD440 isn't a nice box -- it sure appears to be -- but staying within Garmin's ecoverse is a huge benefit to me, and that's one of the many reasons I went with the GTN650, the G5s, and so on.

 

[WannFly]

Thanks. That's what I am thinking too, staying in one ecosystem is always better. Last thing I want is Garmin did a sw update that breaks integration with something else and then the fingerprinting begins.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[denverpilot]

Thanks. That's what I am thinking too, staying in one ecosystem is always better. Last thing I want is Garmin did a sw update that breaks integration with something else and then the fingerprinting begins.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Well, technically they can do that within their own products and have, but the hope is they realize someone’s wrong and fix it.

 

[Tennis]

It's hard to believe but I did the same thing in 2002 updated everthing in 182 nice panel 155 bendix hsi the best klm 94 very just now losing screen no replacement thinking about 750 345 210 Looking now at what to do .....??.???

 

[Ryan F.]

It's hard to believe but I did the same thing in 2002 updated everthing in 182 nice panel 155 bendix hsi the best klm 94 very just now losing screen no replacement thinking about 750 345 210 Looking now at what to do .....??.???

Well, I didn't make the same mistake twice.

The GTN750 is a pretty sweet piece of equipment. I don't a) have panel space for it and b) can't justify the delta in cost between the 650 and 750 just to see a big map image. Instead I'm now working through a custom panel installation of a Garmin Aera 660 (which talks to the GTN 650 via RS-232 and listens to the GTX345 for weather and traffic). It should look seamless when finished, and give all of the capabilities of a 750 and more for significantly less cost. YMMV.

Of course, if you want to use the 750 to remote displays for your audio panel, that's something the 650 can't do.

Really not picking on the 750, but I want to do it a different way. I think the 650 + 660 will actually be better!

 

[WannFly]

Well, I didn't make the same mistake twice.

The GTN750 is a pretty sweet piece of equipment. I don't a) have panel space for it and b) can't justify the delta in cost between the 650 and 750 just to see a big map image. Instead I'm now working through a custom panel installation of a Garmin Aera 660 (which talks to the GTN 650 via RS-232 and listens to the GTX345 for weather and traffic). It should look seamless when finished, and give all of the capabilities of a 750 and more for significantly less cost. YMMV.

Of course, if you want to use the 750 to remote displays for your audio panel, that's something the 650 can't do.

Really not picking on the 750, but I want to do it a different way. I think the 650 + 660 will actually be better!

Eventually when and IF I get a GPS upgrade, that's the combo I am thinking too. I have GMX200, which is awesome, but Garmin is no longer developing that platform and the jepp charts are pretty outrageously priced. A 660 might even fit in that hole and get more feature out of it than the gmx without breaking the bank. Any idea if it needs a field approval?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[Ryan F.]

Eventually when and IF I get a GPS upgrade, that's the combo I am thinking too. I have GMX200, which is awesome, but Garmin is no longer developing that platform and the jepp charts are pretty outrageously priced. A 660 might even fit in that hole and get more feature out of it than the gmx without breaking the bank. Any idea if it needs a field approval?

If you want a quick and easy solution for this check out the Airgizmos mount for the Aera 660. If you have space in your center stack already, it's a simple way to mount the 660. No field approval needed.

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/ai...hqNGNPeT1qCeZtUhMyDot6tDWten2jk8aAlcqEALw_wcB

I would think the Aera 660 would be a substantial upgrade over the GMX200 in many categories. As you've suggested, the GMX200 isn't really a good long term platform. I was briefly interested in it since the units are inexpensive, but I ruled it out based on Garmin's lukewarm interest in supporting it.

As for the Airgizmos mount, I'm being a bit picky but I don't like the way it looks. It eats up a lot of real estate on the panel. I want to flush mount the 660 in a custom fabricated mount which will result in a much cleaner look. But it's really a matter of aesthetics more than functionality. To each his or her own.

 

[WannFly]

If you want a quick and easy solution for this check out the Airgizmos mount for the Aera 660. If you have space in your center stack already, it's a simple way to mount the 660. No field approval needed.

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/ai...hqNGNPeT1qCeZtUhMyDot6tDWten2jk8aAlcqEALw_wcB

I would think the Aera 660 would be a substantial upgrade over the GMX200 in many categories. As you've suggested, the GMX200 isn't really a good long term platform. I was briefly interested in it since the units are inexpensive, but I ruled it out based on Garmin's lukewarm interest in supporting it.

As for the Airgizmos mount, I'm being a bit picky but I don't like the way it looks. It eats up a lot of real estate on the panel. I want to flush mount the 660 in a custom fabricated mount which will result in a much cleaner look. But it's really a matter of aesthetics more than functionality. To each his or her own.

i have zero place in my panel rt now.... a 660 means GMX needs to come out. not doing it rt now, but may be sometime down the road. i am also secretly hoping there would be a G5 variant of an MFD... one can hope rt?

looking forward to a picture of your panel... the custom fabricated one seems interesting

 

[denverpilot]

Well, I didn't make the same mistake twice.

The GTN750 is a pretty sweet piece of equipment. I don't a) have panel space for it and b) can't justify the delta in cost between the 650 and 750 just to see a big map image. Instead I'm now working through a custom panel installation of a Garmin Aera 660 (which talks to the GTN 650 via RS-232 and listens to the GTX345 for weather and traffic). It should look seamless when finished, and give all of the capabilities of a 750 and more for significantly less cost. YMMV.

Of course, if you want to use the 750 to remote displays for your audio panel, that's something the 650 can't do.

Really not picking on the 750, but I want to do it a different way. I think the 650 + 660 will actually be better!

I assume the 660 gives you approach plates? I know little about the Garmin dedicated handheld devices. Never wanted one.

That’s really what you’re losing between the 650 and 750. Screen real estate is secondary but also a cause for that.

 

[Ryan F.]

I assume the 660 gives you approach plates? I know little about the Garmin dedicated handheld devices. Never wanted one.

That’s really what you’re losing between the 650 and 750. Screen real estate is secondary but also a cause for that.

The 660 does provide approach plates but my impression is that the screen real estate just isn't sufficient to be a really good chart viewer. In that respect, you're right, the 750 holds an advantage there, but dimensionally even the big 750 screen is still not ideal. I haven't found anything that is, really, in the light GA space, except for the iPad. All of the MFD options tend to be some sort of compromise simply due to the limited space in our panels.

My interest in the Aera 660 as a handheld portable is very minimal. My interest in mounting the Aera 660 in my panel and connecting it to the GTN650 and GTX345 is another matter altogether. I'd love to have a panel mounted MFD which shows weather, traffic, terrain, flight plan, all of that stuff, with great integration with the rest of my panel. That's a fantastic upgrade for very few dollars.

I gave up on displaying charts in my panel. I just don't have to space for it. I'll have to stick with a yoke-mounted iPad for that.

First world problems, eh? I really love these modern connected panels.

 

[Ryan F.]

i have zero place in my panel rt now.... a 660 means GMX needs to come out. not doing it rt now, but may be sometime down the road. i am also secretly hoping there would be a G5 variant of an MFD... one can hope rt?

looking forward to a picture of your panel... the custom fabricated one seems interesting

Yes, I was assuming you'd want to replace the GMX200 with the Aera 660... I'll let you know how it goes with my installation. We're going to be doing mockups soon and figuring out exactly where we're punching holes and cutting.

I have high hopes for the custom mount. A friend of mine, an engineer with a sharp mind for these things, shares my interest in clean design and implementation. The goal is to build something which makes the Aera 660 look like it's perma-mounted flush in the panel, but can be popped out with a quick release for updates, etc. It'll look quite a bit like most of the certified panel mounted units out there, but it's only going to cost about a kilobuck to buy and install... which is 1/6 to 1/10 the cost of most other options.

 

[WannFly]

Agree on the approach plate front, gmx displays the plates too, but way too much pan and zoom required, seems more distraction than help

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[SbestCFII]

It's hard to believe but I did the same thing in 2002 updated everthing in 182 nice panel 155 bendix hsi the best klm 94 very just now losing screen no replacement thinking about 750 345 210 Looking now at what to do .....??.???

In your case you can just replace the GPS and indicator. The Silver Crown avionics were not that integrated the way newer ones are. The KLN series GPS could load frequencies in the KX155A radios (if that's what you got), but you would have that with a 650 with it's own integrated radio and nav as well. If you have two KX155s or 155As, you could keep the one removed with the GPS and have a ready backup for when King finally abandons the rest if it's line. After that, the TKM MX-155 looks promising. The KLN94 (and the predecessor 89b) were both good units, and could have been upgradeable with a new GPS receiver and software, but King just sort of threw up their hands and walked off stage. For the first decade of my flying, they were the ones to beat, and Garmin did just that (like a rented mule). I'm not an Avidyne fan. Their units look good, and I like the fact that they kept a decent number of buttons (Garmin has de-buttoned the 650/750 series too much), but they are not very intuitive to use. You can literally have used a KLN94 or Garmin 430/530 and figure our a 650/750 pretty quick, but the IFDs take a bit more getting used to. In all of the touchscreens, the screens could be decluttered a lot more.

 

[Tennis]

Thanks for replying it was good to hear what I thought was good now just go to go to fun an sun look at garmin stuff

 

[Tennis]

I was checking on Rvan Ferguson 1974 to see how he did on is panel with 650 an 660 is the 510 the way to go that's what installer say is way to go

 

[Ryan F.]

I have been busy... haven't gotten around to it yet. It's still in the plans.

 

[Arrow76R]

I didn't see an answer to this query about updating FS boxes above so here is my 2 cents: When I had a second G5 installed in my Arrow a few weeks ago I asked the shop to update the software in my FS 210. Tech did it via bluetooth from a notebook computer in less time than it took me to type this!!! No flash cards, connections, etc. All done wirelessly!!!!