Garmin 696 and Approach Database

SkyHog said:
Well, I think the criminal intent exists as they set a bottom price for their units to be sold at. They'll always win the lawsuit, though, because there are so many Garmin lovers that no one wants to join up.
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How is it criminal intent for a manufacturer to set the price on their product??

It's a free marketplace. And there are other companies producing similar products. If the pricing is an issue buy a competing product.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
How is it criminal intent for a manufacturer to set the price on their product??

It's a free marketplace. And there are other companies producing similar products. If the pricing is an issue buy a competing product.
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They should set the WHOLESALE price. The retailers should be able to decide for themselves how much mark-up they can live with. But they can't because Garmin dictates to the retailers how much they will sell the unit for.

This only applies to United States dealers though. There are dealers in Canada who can easily save you 10% to 15%.

The term "price fix" is a little strong there because it suggests criminal intent- it is a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. If you have proof of price fixing- bring it to the local AG office.
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They tell their dealers what the RETAIL sales price will be. Is that not price fixing? I don't know. I'm asking. I don't know the legal definition of "price fixing".
 
Actually, Nick, you're wrong. You can put all sorts of caveats in your contracts with resellers, that they must abide by if they want to sell your stuff.

Lots of companies do this. Breitling, Rolex, lots of medical stuff, network, computer gear.

Now, let's say Avionics West sold out their stock of Garmin 696's at $500.00. They haven't broken any laws, just their contract with Garmin. So Garmin won't sell them any more 696s, and may sue them for the breach, depending on the terms of the contract.

That's how it works, it's legal, that's all.
 
SkyHog said:
Well, I think the criminal intent exists as they set a bottom price for their units to be sold at. They'll always win the lawsuit, though, because there are so many Garmin lovers that no one wants to join up.
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Any proof or just hearsay?

timwinters said:
They should set the WHOLESALE price. The retailers should be able to decide for themselves how much mark-up they can live with. But they can't because Garmin dictates to the retailers how much they will sell the unit for.

This only applies to United States dealers though. There are dealers in Canada who can easily save you 10% to 15%.

They tell their dealers what the RETAIL sales price will be. Is that not price fixing? I don't know. I'm asking. I don't know the legal definition of "price fixing".
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Tim- Garmin does set the wholesale price- this is the price that Garmin charges to the distributor.

What Garmin probably does is send out a price list with list prices and indicating the discount that the distributor gets from list for reselling product (this is their wholesale price). Large dealers (like Sportys) probably have Garmin fill out a form indicating list price and their discount as well as all the marketing information that appears in the catalog and web site. Garmin is supposed to set the same price to all its dealers but some exceptions are allowed for production and distribution costs or competitive pressure (This is the Robinson-Patman Act and the Clayton Antitrust Act).

Price Fixing is collusion between competitors to sell the product at a given price or to buy the product from a dealer a a defined maximum price. Setting a resale price between a distributor and seller is also price fixing.

Garmin isn't behaving AFAIK any differently than a manufacturer selling to distributors in any industry.

I'm not happy with Garmin's pricing- that's why I use a GPS V and a homemade database from info downloaded from the FAA. This guy got the same idea and lets you download FAA data in a format you can upload to most GPS units:http://navaid.com/

If I knew the data structure Jepp & Garmin use, I'd sell you guys a subscription much less expensively than Garmin does.
 
I'm pretty sure that for aviation products, it's Garmin dealing directly with resellers, not with distributors. But I could be wrong.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm pretty sure that for aviation products, it's Garmin dealing directly with resellers, not with distributors. But I could be wrong.
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The resellers are Garmins distributors- I think we are defining the term slightly differently. In food, I think there is at least one intermediary between the farmer and the grocer that is a distributor. I don't know for sure never having worked in the food industry.

AFAIK, manufactured goods have a flatter distribution structure (at least in this country).
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Tim- Garmin does set the wholesale price- this is the price that Garmin charges to the distributor.

What Garmin probably does is send out a price list with list prices and indicating the discount that the distributor gets from list for reselling product (this is their wholesale price).
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Actually, Garmin flat out tells their dealers what they will sell the units for, therefore, they are setting the retail price also. At least they did 3 years ago when I bought my 396. The dealer I bought my unit from showed me his mandated price list provided by Garmin.

This is the issue I have with Garmin but, again, I don't know enough about the law to comment on legality.
 
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timwinters said:
Actually, Garmin flat out tells their dealers what they will sell the units for, therefore, they are setting the retail price also. At least they did 3 years ago when I bought my 396.

This is the issue.
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If true, this is indeed price fixing. The question is proving it. I've heard a lot of hearsay in this thread but nothing that would convince me of wrong doing on the part of Garmin. It is possible that someone (at the reseller) looked at the price list from Garmin and interpreted the list price as a "you will sell" price.

Lots of industries follow the list price set by the manufacturer.

Lets take a staining dish (for microscope slides)- Wheaton part number 900200. Fisher Scientific sells them at $390.36 while VWR sells the same item at $398.53 only about 2% difference. Thomas Scientific sells it for $398.53. I know Wheaton didn't tell them to sell that item at that price- they sent a price list with a list price and a dealer discount from list. I picked this example because I know it fairly well.
 
SkyHog said:
You don't understand how the laws in the United States work.

You can issue an MSRP. You cannot set a MINIMUM price. You set a price, sell to companies at that price, and they get to mark it up to whatever they want.
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Obviously you are the one that doesn't understand how the law works my friend. This falls under contract law, not anti-trust.

Welcome to the Free Marketplace.
 
timwinters said:
Actually, Garmin flat out tells their dealers what they will sell the units for, therefore, they are setting the retail price also. At least they did 3 years ago when I bought my 396. The dealer I bought my unit from showed me his mandated price list provided by Garmin.

This is the issue I have with Garmin but, again, I don't know enough about the law to comment on legality.
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I have a friend who is a Garmin dealer and that's not true. He buys the units at a wholesale price and Garmin recommends a retail price. I will ask him again this week what his contract states. He sold me a 496 about a year ago below the retail price.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I have a friend who is a Garmin dealer and that's not true.
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I'm sorry, but it was when I bought my 396...saw it with my own two eyes. Basically stated..."if you sell for less and you won't sell no more".

I will refrain from saying any more about this purchase here as this dealer is also a good friend. I would hate to get his butt in a sling.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
Obviously you are the one that doesn't understand how the law works my friend. This falls under contract law, not anti-trust.

Welcome to the Free Marketplace.
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Sorry- a manufacturer can't tell a reseller what price to sell something at. A contract with such a fixed price is unenforcable due to it being illegal.

In practical terms, the contract can be changed to punish or eliminate those who undercut the desired selling price (minimum purchase quantities, for example). The effect can be the same.

If someone comes out with something considered as good as a Garmin, prices will fall. Look at consumer GPS after Tomtom became popular- Garmin is still expensive but not that much more than TomTom.
 
timwinters said:
I'm sorry, but it was when I bought my 396...saw it with my own two eyes. Basically stated..."if you sell for less and you won't sell no more".

I will refrain from saying any more about this purchase here as this dealer is also a good friend. I would hate to get his butt in a sling.
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Then it is illegal. Your friend can sue. Under the Clayton Act he is entitled to treble damages. Look it up.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Sorry- a manufacturer can't tell a reseller what price to sell something at. A contract with such a fixed price is unenforcable due to it being illegal.

In practical terms, the contract can be changed to punish or eliminate those who undercut the desired selling price (minimum purchase quantities, for example). The effect can be the same.

If someone comes out with something considered as good as a Garmin, prices will fall. Look at consumer GPS after Tomtom became popular- Garmin is still expensive but not that much more than TomTom.
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We'll just disagree on this one, but it's clearly not illegal. Harley Davidson has used a similar scheme for years.

But the bottom line: If you can't afford Garmin or don't want to pay their premium price for their product, then buy someone else's product. That's the beauty of the Free Marketplace. If Garmin was unable to sell their products at their set price then they would adjust to the market, but clearly there are people willing to pay for it.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
I have a friend who is a Garmin dealer and that's not true.
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by the way. If it's not true then why does every dealer have the x96 listed for the exact same price? At least with headsets the mfgrs only dictate a mininum advertized price so, if a dealer wants to sell for less, they simply insert in their catalog "call for price". With garmin's products you can look far and wide (in the US) and every major distributor's price will be the same. $3,295 today for the 696 on every site on the internet.

Again, I say, go to Canada to buy your next Garmin.
 
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timwinters said:
by the way. If it's not true then why does every dealer have the x96 listed for the exact same price? At least with headsets the mfgrs only dictate a mininum advertized price so, if a dealer wants to sell for less, they simply insert in their catalog "call for price". With garmin's products you can look far and wide (in the US) and every major distributor's price will be the same. $3,295 today for the 696 on every site on the internet.

Again, I say, go to Canada to buy your next Garmin.
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Just got off the phone with my friend that is a Garmin dealer. He told me there is no contract or requirement to sell for MSRP. He is free to sell for whatever he pleases.

He went on to say that his wholesale price is based upon units ordered. He is a low volume dealer so his wholesale is higher than say a dealer that orders a truck load at a time.

timwinters said:
With garmin's products you can look far and wide (in the US) and every major distributor's price will be the same. $3,295 today for the 696 on every site on the internet.
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That's called supply and demand. They know they can hold out for the MSRP and get it. They're in the business to make money and not be charitable to cheap pilots and aircraft owners.
 
SkyHog said:
No, it doesn't, my friend. Price setting falls under anti-trust law, bud.
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For laws specific to the U.S., see United States antitrust law.
Competition law, known in the United States as antitrust law, has three main elements:

  • prohibiting agreements or practices that restrict free trading and competition between business entities. This includes in particular the repression of cartels.
  • banning abusive behaviour by a firm dominating a market, or anti-competitive practices that tend to lead to such a dominant position. Practices controlled in this way may include predatory pricing, tying, price gouging, refusal to deal, and many others.
  • supervising the mergers and acquisitions of large corporations, including some joint ventures. Transactions that are considered to threaten the competitive process can be prohibited altogether, or approved subject to "remedies" such as an obligation to divest part of the merged business or to offer licences or access to facilities to enable other businesses to continue competing.
United States antitrust law is the body of laws that prohibits anti-competitive behavior (monopoly) and unfair business practices. These competition laws make illegal certain practices deemed to hurt businesses or consumers or both, or generally to violate standards of ethical behavior. Government agencies known as competition regulators, along with private litigants, apply the antitrust and consumer protection laws. The term "antitrust" was originally formulated to combat "business trusts", now more commonly known as cartels. Other countries use the term "competition law". Many countries including most of the Western world have antitrust laws of some form; for example the European Union has provisions under the Treaty of Rome to maintain fair competition, as does Australia under its Trade Practices Act 1974.
 
SkyHog said:
Name one other product that has the EXACT same price, nationwide. This is a joke, man, open your eyes.
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You'll love this one, Nick...

Anything made by Apple.

Oh, and how about the Bose Headset X?

There are lots of products that have manufacturer-set prices (and I don't mean just MSRP, I mean there's a little more weight behind them). With Apple, you can sell any of their products below list price - Once. (OK, not entirely true, but you get the point.) I don't think it's a requirement that Apple has to sell their stuff to just anybody, or make just anybody a dealer, right?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You'll love this one, Nick...

Anything made by Apple.

Oh, and how about the Bose Headset X?

There are lots of products that have manufacturer-set prices (and I don't mean just MSRP, I mean there's a little more weight behind them). With Apple, you can sell any of their products below list price - Once. (OK, not entirely true, but you get the point.) I don't think it's a requirement that Apple has to sell their stuff to just anybody, or make just anybody a dealer, right?
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I was going to mention those. There are also a lot of 'minimum sales pricing' contracts on items in the scuba industry too.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just got off the phone with my friend that is a Garmin dealer. He told me there is no contract or requirement to sell for MSRP. He is free to sell for whatever he pleases.
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He didn't have Guido standing behind him threatening to break his legs if he said anything different did he?

If anyone is seriously shopping for a 696, I would suggest calling Pascal @ Aero Teknic in Toronto 450-676-6299. He can save you 10% or more from the US prices because he's not "subject to Garmin's US pricing structure". It's not being "a cheap pilot". It's getting the best deal out there and sidestepping the collusion.

Disclaimer: I have no finanical interest in the above referenced business.

Note: Back to the original intent of this thread...even Pascal can't keep your approach database from going Tango Uniform after Garmin says it must though!
 
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timwinters said:
by the way. If it's not true then why does every dealer have the x96 listed for the exact same price? At least with headsets the mfgrs only dictate a mininum advertized price so, if a dealer wants to sell for less, they simply insert in their catalog "call for price". With garmin's products you can look far and wide (in the US) and every major distributor's price will be the same. $3,295 today for the 696 on every site on the internet.

Again, I say, go to Canada to buy your next Garmin.
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SkyHog said:
Name one other product that has the EXACT same price, nationwide. This is a joke, man, open your eyes.
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I explained this in an earlier post:
Lets take a staining dish (for microscope slides)- Wheaton part number 900200. Fisher Scientific sells them at $390.36 while VWR sells the same item at $398.53 only about 2% difference. Thomas Scientific sells it for $398.53. I know Wheaton didn't tell them to sell that item at that price- they sent a price list with a list price and a dealer discount from list. I picked this example because I know it fairly well.
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I know this very well since I set the list price once upon a time for those items as well as the dealer discount. Those resellers (and all others selling those staining dishes) were free to set their own list price.

How did these resellers match the price so closely? They work off the list price that Wheaton gives them.

I always found the claim by our dealer-reps that "Wheaton sets the prices- not us" to be very amusing.

There's a lot of BS out there on pricing and a lot of it is from dealers or sales reps trying to protect their margins and commissions.
 
Sigh- 2 of the prices are the same. One is off by only 2%

Is there anyone here besides me who has actually created price lists and discounts for resellers?

Is there anyone here who is a reseller that has been told they have to sell at a given price? I don't mean "some one told me..."- I mean the actual business owner or product line manager who has to set pricing for their customers. One would think someone in this discussion owns their own business....

If Garmin is price fixing, whay aren't they doing it to the Nuvi?
http://www.google.com/products/cata..._catalog_result&resnum=5&ct=result#ps-sellers

That's a pretty wide range of prices.
 
john smith said:
Thursday Wall Street Journal

Discounters, Monitors Face Battle on Minimum Pricing


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122835660256478297.html
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That article refers to Minimum Advertised Price. Not Minimum sales price. Some online sellers get around this by not showing you the lower sales price until you add it to you cart.

One Garmin data point. I'm about to buy both a Garmin 496 and a Dynon EFIS. The guy I'm buying them from knows I'm buying them both from him. He told me to buy them both at the same time because he can't reduce the price of the Garmin but he can give me a package price on both the Garmin and the Dynon that is about 10% cheaper than if I bought them both from him separately.
 
GigG601XL said:
That article refers to Minimum Advertised Price. Not Minimum sales price.
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Actually, I think if you read the article again, you'll find that it deals with both. At least that's the way I interpreted it.


GigG601XL said:
One Garmin data point. I'm about to buy both a Garmin 496 and a Dynon EFIS. The guy I'm buying them from knows I'm buying them both from him. He told me to buy them both at the same time because he can't reduce the price of the Garmin but he can give me a package price on both the Garmin and the Dynon that is about 10% cheaper than if I bought them both from him separately.
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Garmin sets minimum sales prices? Say it isn't so!

Buying more than one items is a great strategy around it when dealing with a willing dealer.
 
timwinters said:
Actually, I think if you read the article again, you'll find that it deals with both. At least that's the way I interpreted it.
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This section seems to suggest setting a minimum price is legal:
Manufacturers have been racing to enforce minimum-pricing policies since last year, when the Supreme Court ruled them to be legal, and not a violation of antitrust law. EBay and a group of other retailers and antitrust advocates are meeting Thursday in Washington to craft a strategy to overturn that ruling.
Manufacturers say minimum-pricing requirements are good because they protect a brand's image from being tarnished by discounting, while helping retailers make enough profit to pay for customer service. Consumer advocates argue that minimum-pricing deals hurt shoppers by keeping prices high and diminishing consumer choice.
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However the article discusses minimum advertised prices (MAP)- this part...

Some retailers try to circumvent pricing restrictions by listing a product at the MAP price but telling shoppers to click an additional button -- or to add the product to their shopping cart -- to see a discount price.
Indeed, Circuit City's online price for the TV moved up to the $1,699 MAP level soon after NetEnforcers noticed the lower price. But more recently, the item had a "see price in cart" notice next to it. Clicking on that opened another window displaying a discounted price of $1,439.99.
Circuit City declined to comment on the use of the "see price in cart" button.
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...seems to suggest a reseller can charge less than the MAP if they don't advertise it.

No wonder there's so much confusion on this topic!
 
I was a Garmin dealer. Garmin sets a List price that nobody ever pays. It sets a Minimum Advertised Price that requires that the dealer may not advertise the product for less than the minimum advertised price. All dealers advertise at this price and no dealers advertise the list price. So for the 696, the list price is $3595 and the MAP is $3295. There are absolutely no limits on what the selling price is !!!!!!!!!! I could give a unit away if I had wanted to and not be in violation of my agreement with Garmin.

Any dealer who says they can't sell for less than the MAP price because it is set by Garmin and they would lose their dealer status, in this case $3295, is a LIAR, is too low in the food chain to make a discount decision, doesn't understand their agreement, or is trying to confuse the buyer so they can make more money. Over the last many years, I have purchased a 396, a 496 and a 696 for several $100's under the MAP each time. I don't buy from dealers that normally stock and sell Garmin portable products. I prefer to an out of state avionics shop that doesn't stock portables and is too busy to bother with them. I offer a fixed amount above cost, like when I bought the 496, I offered $100 over cost, so the dealer made $100 for making a single telephone call. For the 696 I offered a few hundred over cost. The fact that I buy from out of state, allows me to avoid local sales tax.
 
John-

Thank you for some first-hand information instead of the "I heard..." statements that permeated this thread.

This reminded me of the threads that discussedlaw enforcement procedures....
 
john smith said:
Friday Wall Street Journal
Minimum-Price Foes to Use eBay in Effort


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122843970044881629.html
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So up to some time last year minimum pricing agreements were illegal- and now they are unless Congress legislates against it.

I guess I was wrong about minimum pricing agreements (but only from sometime last year). somehow I missed the supreme court overturning that particular part of antitrust. My apologies to those that said it was legal.
 
For those considering the Garmin 696, might I offer the following alternative for a LOT less investment and it does more!

http://www.aviationsafety.com/

I own the FL190 and love it! No regrets! and my charts don't lockup if expired!
 
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TMetzinger said:
Then don't buy the unit - or turn it back in. Let me know what other EFB applications you find out there that let you download charts and use them forever.
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t,

Many do.... Seattle, RMS, Anywhere to name a few.....
 
TMetzinger said:
Good grief.. The 696 is a VFR gps, and you can buy it and use it without spending another dime on it. All the "add-ons" like weather, terrain, charts, are just that - extras.

Want updated data - pay for it. Want weather? pay for it.

Why don't you folks complain that Garmin doesn't provide XM WX for free forever too?

And Felix, it's not "thousands" per year.
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T,

Yes, it IS thousands per year, and why does Garmin charge 3 to 4 times as much as other vendors do for the plates? And all the other charges??? They should have a reasonable package for all the data.
The high price of charts is what's keeping me from buying one.
 
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