Game changer..what plane now?

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MotoFlier

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MotoFlier
Big news looks like I'm gonna be adding another dirtbike to the fleet, I got a baby boy baking in mom's oven! Good bye 4 place plane's eeek..

As expected this throws a wrench in our airplane game plan. The only plane's that would still be relevant from our family of four list is the 6/300 or Lance. Now for alittle backstory we met some local Cirrus reps at our home town air show. After getting our finger prints all over an Sr22 we were sold. We have been looking at some older model's with current brs. While I do think the Sr22 would fit our mission with the 3 place seat in back while the kids are pre teen I think in a few years we will out grow it. We started really looking at some of the Cherokee 6's again however my wife is really sold on having the peace of mind offered by the Cirrus, so I said kinda in jest the next best thing is a second fan. Boy did that open the flood gates, I was out of my elements with the others but now I'm out to sea. After aimlessly poking around on trade a plane I pretty much gave up on a twin being a realistic choice, than I stumbled upon a twin baron 55 for sale. Seems to check every box for our mission.
This is where I need help.
Biggest question is it safe for a low time pilot to jump up to a twin?
We decided not to buy anything until my IFR is completed so we are a few months away from really getting serious and smearing our finger prints all over plane's.
Take me to school on twins guys some realistic ownership costs would also be extremely helpful.
 
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Now this is what I like to see. A man with his priorities straight. :D

New dad, and first thing he considers is his plane options. :yes:

Congrats, nice shootin! I can't offer much advice on the twin angle, except that my drool plane of choice if I'm going to the big leagues would be the Aerostar. If you give your wife a ride in one, that will be the end of shopping for twins(airplane).

With proper instruction, and suitable ground prep, I don't think the Aerostar would be much more plane for you than the others in the field. Maybe a marginal step in complexity if you decide for the pressurized version but a non-pressure Aerostar is a plane with two engines, just like a Baron or Aztec.
 
You are where I was at 2 years ago. Closed on my archer then a few weeks later number 3 got its squawk code from the obgyn. Damn.....


Lance, toga or 6 is my plan. Oh but wait....a Bo is way nicer, right? That's what they tried to drill me into. Whelp, I need suburban utility with three mud dobbers and a queen bee. Go mess with a planned load out in a Bo and see where that gets you. Now do it in a PA32.

Results speak for themselves.

you give up some of that "ramp appeal" whatever that means. I don't need appeal with 3 kids and a CFO on board. I have no game anymore. You want people to look, go by a Lancaire turbine. I do want to get us there will all the necessary (read unnecessary) crap they stuff into the bags. The PA32 is really the only option in my research.
 
You,edited while I was writing.....


Twin is great, but you better talk to your MX first. Can you afford to keep it in annual? I looked hard at twins. Talked to MX, had him look at a few planes online I was interested in.

Bottom line, twins are an absolute bargain these days. I cannot afford to feed it or keep the props spinning though. That's on $1k a month budget for flying.

If you want to look experimental, the Velocity RG XL 5 might be up your alley or IF Raptor actually does produce a bird, it's a 5 place and has the chute. The odds of them delivering are slim to none in my book.
 
Buy a one seat Pitts or similar fun plane and tell the wife to stay home and babysit the kids when you want to go fly. :yes:

:D


My personal choice would be a 206 or something similar. But....

How often do you take the entire family on a trip versus just making short flights or punching holes in the sky? If the answer is not often then when you do, you might want to rent and have a smaller, less expensive, less complex aircraft for your normal flying.
 
Haha it would be fun to have something I could use to go up and keep my spin training fresh.

My mission would be 500nm trips ideally once a month for a weekend. My wife's brothers and sisters are all starting to have kids she wants to spend more time with them and for our kids to spend time with there cousins. Due to our jobs/lifestyle it is not realistic to move closer to family.

I have never read anything negative about the PA-32 and it will be the top choice if a twin is not feasible.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Buy a one seat Pitts or similar fun plane and tell the wife to stay home and babysit the kids when you want to go fly. :yes:
.
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Yeah that. How often are you really(not imaginary, not what you'd like) going to fly the whole family around? Remember around 12, they either don't want to go or have friends to bring along. Pretty small window of whole family flying for most people.
 
MotoFlier said:
After aimlessly poking around on trade a plane I pretty much gave up on a twin being a realistic choice, than I stumbled upon a twin baron 55 for sale. Seems to check every box for our mission.
This is where I need help.
Biggest question is it safe for a low time pilot to jump up to a twin?
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I'm obviously biased (I own a '78 B55), but if you can afford to operate/maintain it, a B55 is one of the best family of 4 airplanes you will find. If you remove the last two seats, you have a huge baggage area in the back plus a decent nose baggage compartment. Hard to run out of space. Fairly efficient (175-185 KTAS at 24-26 gph). Very dependable airframe (if you buy a good one, not a beater). Decent SE performance as long as you aren't trying to depart at gross weight from the Rockies. Out here on the east coast, unless you are taking off at gross weight from Hot Springs in the Appalachians, you will probably be able to climb out on a single engine.

Very stable, beautiful IFR platform. Extremely easy to fly once you learn and respect the basic ME stuff. No reason a lower time pilot can't be very safe in a Baron as long as you take the training to heart and fly within safe limits.

Other contenders are: Twin Comanches (good airplanes, but load can be a problem as the family grows) and Cessna 310s. You can get more airplane for the money with a 310 (Barons seem to command a slightly higher price than 310s). 310s have a little more elbow room on the inside. When I was searching for a twin, I ended up paying a little more for a Baron after talking to 310 and Baron owners and shops - Barons seem to run a little lower on maintenance costs from the folks I've talked to.

Insurance will be higher of course than a single, but shouldn't be ridiculous. Maintenance will be higher, but you can mitigate that somewhat by getting a nice airframe and doing some owner assist if possible.

I won't sugar coat it though. The overall cost to insure/operate/maintain a Baron or 310 could be close to twice what it would cost you to operate a fixed gear non-turbo PA32.

If you are seriously interested, let me know. My B55 may be for sale tomorrow afternoon.....
 
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Twins are nice, you have to have the money for the maintenance,and plenty of time to stay current. To say nothing of the increased fuel burn,I had a twin when my family was younger,now I'm retired flying a two seat single. Good luck on your search.
 
Phoenix: that can be said for all plane's but I am trying to be realistic and of course I doubt we would fly home once a month. However it would be quite a bit I also think the more comfortable the plane and the faster we can get places the more it would be used.


Cowboy: You're gonna make me do something stupid haha

Fearless: I'm not ready for buying yet the plan is IFR and research over the winter and a plane next summer.

Now contradictory to everything I just said would it make more sense to finish my IFR training in the twin? It would be ME, complex, and logging seat time as well as learning MY exact panel.
 
Congratulations!

That 3rd kid really affects the airplane thing doesnt it? I bought my first SR22, less than a year old and with only 150 hours for a great deal from a guy who had just found out his wife was pregnant with #3!

I've already told my GF (not even engaged yet!) that after #2, I'm getting a vasectomy!

But again, congratulations!
 
MotoFlier said:
Big news looks like I'm gonna be adding another dirtbike to the fleet, I got a baby boy baking in mom's oven! Good bye 4 place plane's eeek..

As expected this throws a wrench in our airplane game plan. The only plane's that would still be relevant from our family of four list is the 6/300 or Lance. Now for alittle backstory we met some local Cirrus reps at our home town air show. After getting our finger prints all over an Sr22 we were sold. We have been looking at some older model's with current brs. While I do think the Sr22 would fit our mission with the 3 place seat in back while the kids are pre teen I think in a few years we will out grow it. We started really looking at some of the Cherokee 6's again however my wife is really sold on having the peace of mind offered by the Cirrus, so I said kinda in jest the next best thing is a second fan. Boy did that open the flood gates, I was out of my elements with the others but now I'm out to sea. After aimlessly poking around on trade a plane I pretty much gave up on a twin being a realistic choice, than I stumbled upon a twin baron 55 for sale. Seems to check every box for our mission.
This is where I need help.
Biggest question is it safe for a low time pilot to jump up to a twin?
We decided not to buy anything until my IFR is completed so we are a few months away from really getting serious and smearing our finger prints all over plane's.
Take me to school on twins guys some realistic ownership costs would also be extremely helpful.
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Yes, I jumped into one with 60hrs TT, get good training, stay sharp, stay focused, it's not bloody rocket surgery. Figure an IO-470 powered Baron or 310 is going to run about $250-300 hr given ~50-100 hrs a year usage. Either of these planes is a competent performing twin when OEI, and the further you remain below gross at take off, the better off you are. You can find both with de-ice equipment, I prefer electric props and window, but alcohol will get you out of a bind, and that's what you want it for anyway, not for continuous operations in icing. The 310 cabin is significantly larger than the Baron.
 
MotoFlier said:
Now contradictory to everything I just said would it make more sense to finish my IFR training in the twin? It would be ME, complex, and logging seat time as well as learning MY exact panel.
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If you know you want to buy a twin and you don't have your IR yet, yes it is indeed doable to go that route. Once you do the initial twin training, you can very easily knock out the IR training while getting comfortable in the twin. If you do your IR ride in a twin, it automatically covers you for IFR in singles.
 
Ah chute.....congrats!!!:goofy:

PA32 is my first choice for a family ride....not fast, but simple and offers lots of utility. It's spacious. There won't be much a family of 4 wouldn't be able to take on a 500 mile trip.

Bout 15 gph and 135 kts cruise.....maintenance is fairly simple and straight forward. Get one with the autopilot and panel you want....with a clean airframe and you'll be happy IMHO.....oh, and prolly the cheapest 6 seater to own and operate.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
If you know you want to buy a twin and you don't have your IR yet, yes it is indeed doable to go that route. Once you do the initial twin training, you can very easily knock out the IR training while getting comfortable in the twin. If you do your IR ride in a twin, it automatically covers you for IFR in singles.
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Not only is it doable, it is preferable from a safety standpoint, and if you hurry up about it, the insurance will give you a mid year rebate if you fly 50hrs and get your IR done and submit new paperwork. When I bought my Travelair with 60hs TT no PMEL, and no IR, the insurance dude was amazed he got me covered for $1100. The only insurance stipulation was 25hrs dual, and I had to take my ME checkride in the plane.

Train in the plane you plan to fly your family in, that's the one you need to know and be **** hot and practiced in.
 
Henning said:
58 Baron would be a nice, if a bit more costly, choice.
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I have been inside a very nice 58 and I would still prefer a 55 for a family of 4. You actually have more baggage space in a 55 with the last two seats removed than in a 58 with club seating.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I have been inside a very nice 58 and I would still prefer a 55 for a family of 4. You actually have more baggage space in a 55 with the last two seats removed than in a 58 with club seating.
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This is true, however he is facing a family of 5. Even then some people still prefer commuter seating to club. It doesn't matter really, before this thread is over we'll have him in a PC-12, or at least a 421.:lol:
 
Henning said:
This is true, however he is facing a family of 5. Even then some people still prefer commuter seating to club. It doesn't matter really, before this thread is over we'll have him in a PC-12, or at least a 421.:lol:
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Oh crap, I missed that. That IS a game changer. I am not so sure a B55 would be a good fit. The back seats in a B55 are really only suitable for a small kid and leaving one in cuts down on the baggage space quite a bit.

For a family of 5, I'd think a 310 might work a little better or Seneca/B58

If you can find a nice one, a Twin Bonanza would be a good family of 5 hauler.
 
No, it's not safe for a low time pilot to jump into a twin. People have learned in a twin. Its not a good idea, although instructors LOVE the guy because they get twin time. So you may hear some false recomendations from some greedy instructors.

Learn in single, non-complex airplane. Then work your way up. Dont buy anything before you get the ticket unless you've got a TON of free time (like ALL of it). Its a lot better that way even if somebody will tell you HE learned in some F-16 or something...
 
coloradobluesky said:
No, it's not safe for a low time pilot to jump into a twin. People have learned in a twin. Its not a good idea, although instructors LOVE the guy because they get twin time. So you may hear some false recomendations from some greedy instructors.
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Completely disagree (and I'm not an instructor, let alone a greedy one).

I did my PP AMEL in a Twin Comanche as an 80 hour pilot before I did my IR. As a low time pilot, it took me a couple extra hours to get comfortable in the PA30 than some higher time folks might have taken, but I was still plenty comfortable and safe in the airplane by the time I had 15 hrs.

If you are going to move up to twins, earlier is better. No need to wait until you have some arbitrary number of hours in your logbook, because all those single engine hours at face value mean absolutely NOTHING when you are learning to fly twins.
 
Really, the only single that I think offers good utility for your mission is a Malibu, and those are $$$. A 206, PA32, etc you will get tired of being slow.

A 310 works well for a family of 5. An Aztec would be better space wise, but significantly slower. A Seneca has the speed of an Aztec with a smaller cabin on similar fuel burn and worse engines.

I bought my Aztec at 220 hours total time with no multi rating. Really, the Aztec and 310 are fairly docile (Aztec moreso) and can be safe provided you set personal limits accordingly and train regularly, also fly regularly.

Henning's numbers are low - $300-350/hr, but you can make it cheaper if you do a lot of owner assisted MX.

Give me a call to chat about it and I can better tell you the realities.
 
Get the SR22 now before she changes her mind!!! It will be fine for a few years (four plus a baby) then you can re-evaluate at that time. As for twins... There is a reason why you can get them for so cheap these days. The people that own them are trying to dump them. Think about that a little. Malibu would be a fine choice long term... Pressurized. Fast. Economical. Comfortable for the family in the back.
 
Gubbins said:
Malibu would be a fine choice long term... Pressurized. Fast. Economical. Comfortable for the family in the back.
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Certainly fast and comfortable for pax, although I would seriously recommend looking inside one before committing. I found the Malibu to not have a whole lot of room for baggage - can be a challenge for a family of 5 to travel light (especially with small kids).

Some folks can travel light and make it work. Not my family.
 
Gubbins said:
Get the SR22 now before she changes her mind!!! It will be fine for a few years (four plus a baby) then you can re-evaluate at that time. As for twins... There is a reason why you can get them for so cheap these days. The people that own them are trying to dump them. Think about that a little. Malibu would be a fine choice long term... Pressurized. Fast. Economical. Comfortable for the family in the back.
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The SR22 will be rotten for 5. The Malibu will cost more total operating cost than the twins being discussed, but is otherwise a good choice.

The "cheap twin" really depends on what you buy. There are some great values, and also some real money pits.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Really, the only single that I think offers good utility for your mission is a Malibu, and those are $$$. A 206, PA32, etc you will get tired of being slow.

A 310 works well for a family of 5. An Aztec would be better space wise, but significantly slower. A Seneca has the speed of an Aztec with a smaller cabin on similar fuel burn and worse engines.

I bought my Aztec at 220 hours total time with no multi rating. Really, the Aztec and 310 are fairly docile (Aztec moreso) and can be safe provided you set personal limits accordingly and train regularly, also fly regularly.

Henning's numbers are low - $300-350/hr, but you can make it cheaper if you do a lot of owner assisted MX.

Give me a call to chat about it and I can better tell you the realities.
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Thank you I will definitely be contacting you it's all in really early stages now and I'm still not 100% I will be going twin.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Looks very nice.....but that's a lot of money for an Aerostar.

If you have that kind of cash, you've got the money to get into a lot more capable kerosene burning airplanes I would think.
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ktup-flyer said:
Yea, there are a lot of clean ones for <$250k
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Ya, and there's one for $800k. I just picked that one because it's got all the good bells and whistles and new avionics. Those types of inclusions make our better halves happier. Can you get one for $250k? Sure.


MotoFlier said:
You both had me up till the whole 40-50gph fuel burn haha
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It's just 2 IO-540's. I think some run about 32-35gph. No different fuel burn than any other similar twin. Plus remember, you and the wife have your own door. She don't need to crawl over everything like a racecar to get in and out. :)

(edit: That one may have a sealed right side, so.. :()

If anyone likes the Aerostars, here's a great article: http://aerostar-owners.com/WhatsYourMission.php
 
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MotoFlier said:
You both had me up till the whole 40-50gph fuel burn haha
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Aerostars can be quite efficient in terms of MPG--they burn a fair amount but go very fast for what they burn. Still, operating costs will be materially higher than a Baron 55, 310, or Aztec.

To be fair to those suggesting it though, you never really spelled out your operating budget or typical mission. Those two bits of info would help be hone in on twins that might be better matches for you.

The Aztec/310/Baron type aircraft are common "entry level" twins as the provide material benefits over singles but are not insanely expensive. Smaller twins were mainly targeted at the trainer market and don't really provide much benefit to the average pilot of a single with a big engine. Bigger twins (Aerostar, Twin Commander, PA31, Cessna 400 series) can provide really great capabilities, but generally at a steep price.
 
TUPilot said:
Aerostars can be quite efficient in terms of MPG--they burn a fair amount but go very fast for what they burn. Still, operating costs will be materially higher than a Baron 55, 310, or Aztec.

To be fair to those suggesting it though, you never really spelled out your operating budget or typical mission. Those two bits of info would help be hone in on twins that might be better matches for you.

The Aztec/310/Baron type aircraft are common "entry level" twins as the provide material benefits over singles but are not insanely expensive. Smaller twins were mainly targeted at the trainer market and don't really provide much benefit to the average pilot of a single with a big engine. Bigger twins (Aerostar, Twin Commander, PA31, Cessna 400 series) can provide really great capabilities, but generally at a steep price.
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It's really tough to set a budget for something like this. I look at it just like a gun. When you buy a new gun many have atleast a 500rd break-in requirement, that makes the break in ammo more expensive than the firearm purchase in some cases and you will always spend more per year in ammo than the gun cost unless it's a safe queen. Even as you stated for fuel burn it would take more than a glance to see how bad it is if a plane burns twice as much as another but is also twice as fast it is a non issue. I guess I'm more concerned with the yearly costs than the price to get in the door.
 
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