GAAAHHHHAAA!!! Plane sellers - kill me now.

D

docmirror

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Cowboy - yeehah!
"What's the empty weight?"

"Gosh, ah don't know, I fly it by myself, around the state, just by myself, and it gets off the ground no problem and ya know the single seat model is about 450 pounds, but I was flying the other day and...." (4 min later)

"What kind of brakes does it have?"

"Way-ull, ya know they are adjustable rudder pedals and brakes, and I think there's brakes on front and back, and they go down to the main gear, ya know - I've never really looked at them, but I was flying down south and landed at a place with a crosswind, and I kinda..." (3 min later)

"Any hail damage?"

"Was back about 3 or 4 years ago, we had a storm come through here - woohee, Perry got right half a hiz hangar roof tore off. Man, the rain was a comin' down like buckets ah tell ya... (6 min later).

If anyone has access to pharma grade heroin, just load me up about 200cc and hit a main vein. Jeezalou STFU already! This is painful.
 
Musta been a West Texan.

They don't see many people out there much less talk to them, so when they do, they don't shut up.
 
Only a moron would complain about an opportunity standing right in front of them.

Only a moron buyer would call a seller and ask questions of a specific model not knowing what the answers are. Ever heard of the internet?

Only a moron buyer would not have a come back and try a reduced the price knowing the seller had no freaking idea what he is selling. Duh! :mad2:

Get the hint? If not here is another clue.... DO YOUR ****ING HOMEWORK MORON AIRPLANE BUYER!

Been gone for a few days, I needed to vent. Sorry Cowman. Yahfreakinghoo. :dunno: :rofl: :D
 
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Doing homeworkmwillmtell you about a series, not a particular example. My empty weight is almost 100 lb higher than when it left the factory 45 years ago. Some models have different equipment available; for my plane, gear motor could be Dukes or ITT; could have three different windshields, two different fuel pumps, may or may not have had brakes reversed. How is someone supposed to know without asking me?

Chill out and relax, dude!
 
Hank S said:
Doing homeworkmwillmtell you about a series, not a particular example. My empty weight is almost 100 lb higher than when it left the factory 45 years ago. Some models have different equipment available; for my plane, gear motor could be Dukes or ITT; could have three different windshields, two different fuel pumps, may or may not have had brakes reversed. How is someone supposed to know without asking me?

Chill out and relax, dude!
Click to expand...

Is it worth starting a thread over requesting a lethal dose of illegal drugs?

So you know a little about W&B and nothing about negotiations, ...Got it. :mad2:

The purpose of looking for a plane and calling and bothering a seller is to BUY one. Getting ****ed off at the seller for not knowing is MORONIC. I would have smelled an opportunity for negotiations, not a reason for suicide. :dunno:
 
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Geico266 said:
Only a moron would complain about an opportunity standing right in front of them.

Only a moron buyer would call a seller and ask questions of a specific model not knowing what the answers are. Ever heard of the internet?

Only a moron buyer would not have a come back and try a reduced the price knowing the seller had no freaking idea what he is selling. Duh! :mad2:

Get the hint? If not here is another clue.... DO YOUR ****ING HOMEWORK MORON AIRPLANE BUYER!

Been gone for a few days, I needed to vent. Sorry Cowman. Yahfreakinghoo. :dunno: :rofl: :D
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Yeah, need to save this.

Wanna tell me the opportunity sport?

Specific model answers? Brakes?(at least 4 types made) empty weight?(ranges from 525 to over 700) Hail? Hail? Hail? (know any planes that come with hail damage)

Price? Do you see a price negotiation ANYWHERE!? ANYWHERE!?

Get the hint, I won't be seeing your posts anymore for a long time. Buh-bye
 
Geico266 said:
Only a moron would complain about an opportunity standing right in front of them.

Only a moron buyer would call a seller and ask questions of a specific model not knowing what the answers are. Ever heard of the internet?

Only a moron buyer would not have a come back and try a reduced the price knowing the seller had no freaking idea what he is selling. Duh! :mad2:

Get the hint? If not here is another clue.... DO YOUR ****ING HOMEWORK MORON AIRPLANE BUYER!

Been gone for a few days, I needed to vent. Sorry Cowman. Yahfreakinghoo. :dunno: :rofl:
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I dont know either of you, but I dont think the OP deserved this. Where online cold he/she have found the empty weight for a particular airplane? Sure it's easy or find the imaginary advertised empty weight published by the manufacturer, but advertised empty weight bears little resemblance to the actual empty weight of any particular airplane. And that the variation in empty weight from airplane to airplane of any type can result in some examples having worthwhile useful loads, and others having such a low useful load that no amount of price cutting would make it a good choice.

Same with hail damage? Where would a buyer go to determine whether a plane has experienced hail damage other than the owner?

As for brakes, maybe it is researchable and maybe not. For example, didn't early Cherokees come standard with a hand brake and later toe brakes became an option on the left side, and later still an option on both sides? Is there a place online where a moron can look to determine if a particular plane has one or the other optional configuration (absent an ad)?

So, Cowboy, if you`really are moron for not knowing how to find this imformation, you have company in me.
 
I had the same experience. A lot of would-be sellers wouldn't give me pertinent information. I'm not going to make on offer on something I don't know for sure I want, and I'm not going to spend $500 in plane tickets to go find out either. If a seller wants to sell an airplane, the seller should be prepared to answer reasonable questions. With some aircraft types, especially light sport, weight is very serious. Brakes are serious on some taildraggers. Does it have Clevelands? Nothing in the OP's original post said he didn't do the research, just that the owner either didn't know, or care to tell the potential buyer. Oh, and I did just buy an airplane... with a very good seller who gave me everything I asked for and was great with communications, better than me in fact.
 
just go buy new or from a dealer. Otherwise you're dealing with people who might not even want to sell the thing. I dunno why everyone expects dealership level service from individuals who really don't give a **** if they sell or not.

 
doc69 said:
If anyone has access to pharma grade heroin, just load me up about 200cc and hit a main vein. Jeezalou STFU already! This is painful.
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I need to save this too. I licensed pilot advertising for illegal drugs. Sure helps our image. :dunno:
 
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Some people just write the check, some people build them one hour at a time.


It's really much ado about nothing. Ask for the books, ask for detailed photos. If you don't want to hear stories, try to keep it on email. If you asked me what brakes I had on mine, I'd tell you shiny ones with big grippers. If you want to more than that, look in the books. I'm not an MX.

If it's broke, I write a check. If MX tells me it's broke, I write a check. I don't care about the details. All I ask is that it does what it's designed to do and if not, I pay to make it do what it does.

What I found in plane shopping was that an owner who was too involved had more hodgepodge repairs, which I turned away from. A plane with steady MX in the books from a shop was what gave me that warm fuzzy.

There are plenty of planes out there. Do some due diligence instead of beating up on some guy who prolly doesn't have an engineering degree to answer your open source questions.
 
Unit74 said:
Some people just write the check, some people build them one hour at a time.


It's really much ado about nothing. Ask for the books, ask for detailed photos. If you don't want to hear stories, try to keep it on email. If you asked me what brakes I had on mine, I'd tell you shiny ones with big grippers. If you want to more than that, look in the books. I'm not an MX.

If it's broke, I write a check. If MX tells me it's broke, I write a check. I don't care about the details. All I ask is that it does what it's designed to do and if not, I pay to make it do what it does.

What I found in plane shopping was that an owner who was too involved had more hodgepodge repairs, which I turned away from. A plane with steady MX in the books from a shop was what gave me that warm fuzzy.

There are plenty of planes out there. Do some due diligence instead of beating up on some guy who prolly doesn't have an engineering degree to answer your open source questions.
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Thank you! :yes:

Getting all worked up because a seller can't answer a question is childish.
 
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Unit74 said:
If it's broke, I write a check. If MX tells me it's broke, I write a check. I don't care about the details. All I ask is that it does what it's designed to do and if not, I pay to make it do what it does.

What I found in plane shopping was that an owner who was too involved had more hodgepodge repairs, which I turned away from. A plane with steady MX in the books from a shop was what gave me that warm fuzzy.

There are plenty of planes out there. Do some due diligence instead of beating up on some guy who prolly doesn't have an engineering degree to answer your open source questions.
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Flying must be very expensive for you

Personally I won't fly with someone who isn't involved in their aircrafts up keep, just saying whatever fix it, or "plane don't fly, make plane fly" to a AP is just as bad as doing shade tree crap.

A good owner will know their machine, thell do owner assist annuals and all the owner maintance they can.

Being a sucker doesn't mean you have a better plane, doing whatever a mechanic says isn't always a good thing.

What I look for is a owner who knows the type, someone who knows the nuts and bolts, "hey the landing light burned out, while I have the cowl off and the light out anyways, let's do a LED/HID upgrade"

"Looks like I have a crack in that no name exhaust that came with the plane, let's just order a acorn heavy duty unit and fix this vs ordering a Joe & Bobs system through Spruce"

Couple pro tips if you really want to sterotype, was the owner a professional pilot, or at least a CFI? I'd way rather buy from a CPL or better than some VFR PPL.

Was the prop balanced? That's something you'll see done on planes which are maintained to a high level, not so much on Joe Blows 172, or the I do what ever my yoakle AP says type planes.

Was the aircraft rigged? As time goes own most of these planes get out of rig, when was the last time someone did a "reset and rig" on the thing, I rarely will fly a hobby pilots plane that couldn't use a rig job.

How neat and tidy is the paperwork? Verify all supplements are in the POH, many planes I've seen are missing a STOL or autopilot or some other suppliment.
 
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James331 said:
Flying must be very expensive for you
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Not really. Spending money on **** I don't really need is though. I fly a 4 place single not a twin kerosene burner.....:rolleyes2:
 
Geico266 said:
Nope, sounds like a tire kicking buyer that has no intentions of actually buying.
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Ah...real buyers say, "I saw your airplane on Barnstormers...it's pretty. Please overnight me copies of all the logs since new."?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Sounded more like a seller who refused to answer several questions to me...:dunno:
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As a buyer its very frustrating to come across a seller that either doesn't know basic information about their aircraft or won't give you the info. Pictures. How hard is it to take a bunch of pictures and load them on one of the dozens of free photo hosting sites? Spend the $10 and get the logs scanned and put the PDF on the same site as the pictures. Not hard to do. That'll cover 90% of the questions sellers get.

The questions about empty weight? I ask them too, because they're all over the place for the model I'm interested in.

What STCs have been added to the plane? Why is that a hard question? Sellers should know that stuff, or put it in the ad so they don't have to keep answering questions about it.

Some sellers just suck at selling stuff.
 
Did you go back and edit your post to write all this because of me? If so, I'm flattered. :rolleyes:


That's great you( whomever) have all that time. I'm not gonna lie though. I don't really care. I pay someone to make sure it all works when I need it to. Whilst I'm at work, MX is fixing it so it's GTG when I need it. Maybe when I retire and have nothing better to do I'll start stripping ......er....removing screws and inspecting "something" to make sure it looks like what a picture in a book says it should look like.

But until that point, I fly it and MX tells me how much money to keep it in that state of suspense. Works just fine for me.:yes:


James331 said:
Flying must be very expensive for you

Personally I won't fly with someone who isn't involved in their aircrafts up keep, just saying whatever fix it, or "plane don't fly, make plane fly" to a AP is just as bad as doing shade tree crap.

A good owner will know their machine, thell do owner assist annuals and all the owner maintance they can.

Being a sucker doesn't mean you have a better plane, doing whatever a mechanic says isn't always a good thing.

What I look for is a owner who knows the type, someone who knows the nuts and bolts, "hey the landing light burned out, while I have the cowl off and the light out anyways, let's do a LED/HID upgrade"

"Looks like I have a crack in that no name exhaust that came with the plane, let's just order a acorn heavy duty unit and fix this vs ordering a Joe & Bobs system through Spruce"

Couple pro tips if you really want to sterotype, was the owner a professional pilot, or at least a CFI? I'd way rather buy from a CPL or better than some VFR PPL.

Was the prop balanced? That's something you'll see done on planes which are maintained to a high level, not so much on Joe Blows 172, or the I do what ever my yoakle AP says type planes.

Was the aircraft rigged? As time goes own most of these planes get out of rig, when was the last time someone did a "reset and rig" on the thing, I rarely will fly a hobby pilots plane that couldn't use a rig job.

How neat and tidy is the paperwork? Verify all supplements are in the POH, many planes I've seen are missing a STOL or autopilot or some other suppliment.
Click to expand...
 
UngaWunga said:
As a buyer its very frustrating to come across a seller that either doesn't know basic information about their aircraft or won't give you the info. Pictures. How hard is it to take a bunch of pictures and load them on one of the dozens of free photo hosting sites? Spend the $10 and get the logs scanned and put the PDF on the same site as the pictures. Not hard to do. That'll cover 90% of the questions sellers get.

The questions about empty weight? I ask them too, because they're all over the place for the model I'm interested in.

What STCs have been added to the plane? Why is that a hard question? Sellers should know that stuff, or put it in the ad so they don't have to keep answering questions about it.

Some sellers just suck at selling stuff.
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I agree, taking a a good amount of pictures should be a given, heck people selling items for $100 or less on craigslist even take pictures.

Copy of the logs, that would be my first or second question, I'd rather the seller send me the log, I go over it and I'll call back with any questions.

As for the STCs, some planes have a TON of STCs, I probably would miss one or two if you asked about all the STCs and 337s on my 185.
 
Unit74 said:
Did you go back and edit your post to write all this because of me? If so, I'm flattered. :rolleyes:


That's great you( whomever) have all that time. I'm not gonna lie though. I don't really care. I pay someone to make sure it all works when I need it to. Whilst I'm at work, MX is fixing it so it's GTG when I need it. Maybe when I retire and have nothing better to do I'll start stripping ......er....removing screws and inspecting "something" to make sure it looks like what a picture in a book says it should look like.

But until that point, I fly it and MX tells me how much money to keep it in that state of suspense. Works just fine for me.:yes:
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Lol, didn't have jack to do with you, just thought I'd add some detail.

Whatever works for you, personally I wouldn't fly in it, blindly trusting a shop isn't the best idea in my experience.

Frankly I work full time and changing the oil or helping once a year on the annual doesn't take up enough time to cause me trouble, knowing every inch of my plane, the plane I fly my loved ones in, the plane I fly into some VERY remote areas, well that's something I don't view as an option.

That the difference between the owner mindset and the renter mindset.
 
James331 said:
I agree, taking a a good amount of pictures should be a given, heck people selling items for $100 or less on craigslist even take pictures.

Copy of the logs, that would be my first or second question, I'd rather the seller send me the log, I go over it and I'll call back with any questions.

As for the STCs, some planes have a TON of STCs, I probably would miss one or two if you asked about all the STCs and 337s on my 185.
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But i'm sure you have a list of them somewhere. STCs add value to your aircraft is most cases, why wouldn't you want sellers to know about them? Just type up a 'fact sheet' on your aircraft, include everything. Saves all the hassle of tire kickers asking piecemeal questions. Putting time up front saves you time in the long run.
 
Unit74 said:
There are plenty of planes out there. Do some due diligence instead of beating up on some guy who prolly doesn't have an engineering degree to answer your open source questions.
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Write a check.

Now that's an 'aviator'.

Engineering degree to figure out the weight, kind of brakes, and if it has hail?

Well, I see the engineering standards have plummeted since I graduated.
 
James331 said:
Lol, didn't have jack to do with you, just thought I'd add some detail.

Whatever works for you, personally I wouldn't fly in it, blindly trusting a shop isn't the best idea in my experience.

Frankly I work full time and changing the oil or helping once a year on the annual doesn't take up enough time to cause me trouble, knowing every inch of my plane, the plane I fly my loved ones in, the plane I fly into some VERY remote areas, well that's something I don't view as an option.

That the difference between the owner mindset and the renter mindset.
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I'm with Unit74. I wouldn't trust an airplane I took apart and put back together. And I don't BLINDLY trust my shop. But I DO trust them. I ask questions so that I know what I'm approving and that I understand the consequences if I put something off. I know the guy that turns the wrenches.

But I am not about to go in and start pulling access panels during an annual when I need to be at my business making the money so that I can pay the guys that know what they are doing. Maybe when I retire I may look at it differently, but for now, that's the way I want it.

If you have the time and the inclination, then you should be in there turning wrenches. But not me.
 
You should be thanking the guy instead of criticizing him, If he didn't have the answers to those questions what else was he ignorant of about his plane.
It probably wasn't flown properly
It probably wasn't maintained properly
and
It probably wasn't given the kinda of care and attention you would want
Best to pass and move on to the next one, but this seller is not all that unusual, I am surprised at your reaction to him.
Perhaps you should be using a broker to find your planes so you don't get insulted?
A little on the sensitive side don't you think?
 
docmirror said:
Write a check.

Now that's an 'aviator
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Didn't see where A&P IA was on the SEL or Instrument PTS anywhere. Did I miss that section or is there an entirely different module I missed?

Last time I checked, which was about 48 seconds ago, an Aviator was synonymous to Pilot, which is one who flies an aircraft. All the usual definitions don't mention being a mechanic anywhere in Aviator or Pilot.

Do I need to change my own oil to drive a car or am I now just a "passenger" in your eyes?

Should I build my own house to live in or am I just an occupant since someone else hammered it together and the guy with the grey shirt comes out and fixes the oven when it doesn't get hot?

C'mon big guy..... You can't be serious? Don't tell any big iron drivers they aren't aviatiors since someone else does their MX too!:eek:
 
JOhnH said:
I'm with Unit74. I wouldn't trust an airplane I took apart and put back together. And I don't BLINDLY trust my shop. But I DO trust them. I ask questions so that I know what I'm approving and that I understand the consequences if I put something off. I know the guy that turns the wrenches.

But I am not about to go in and start pulling access panels during an annual when I need to be at my business making the money so that I can pay the guys that know what they are doing. Maybe when I retire I may look at it differently, but for now, that's the way I want it.

If you have the time and the inclination, then you should be in there turning wrenches. But not me.
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Just a side note to this point, my mech makes hamburger runs with me and is always showing me this or that when I'm in the shop. Last Friday he let me use a bore scope on a jug he was about to pull so I would know what a scored cylinder wall looked like. He also showed me how a mag works.

If HE will fly in it with me, I'm fairly certain he is confident in his work.
 
So by the OP the airplane in question is some sort of small LSA. Goofy is the rule for airplanes in that category. If I was a prospective buyer I'd have looked at the brakes while talking. And at hail damage, and general workmanship. What the seller says is going to be fiction from a subjective perspective. What I can see is all that matters. So apparently the seller in the example wasn't the builder. That explains the lack of knowledge. He may not care which brakes as long as they work. Or about weight as long as it flies. It isn't a type certificated airplane and I wouldn't begin to expect it to display as one.
 
Unit74 said:
Didn't see where A&P IA was on the SEL or Instrument PTS anywhere. Did I miss that section or is there an entirely different module I missed?
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Hey, who let that stawman in!

I'm not buying training, and I'm not buying an A&P, I'm buying a simple, small airplane. I think knowing the type of brakes, weight, and if there's hail to be the most basic, minimal information. If you don't, fine with me, use a broker. Everyone should know their limitations.
 
Cruiser said:
You should be thanking the guy instead of criticizing him, If he didn't have the answers to those questions what else was he ignorant of about his plane.
It probably wasn't flown properly
It probably wasn't maintained properly
and
It probably wasn't given the kinda of care and attention you would want
Best to pass and move on to the next one, but this seller is not all that unusual, I am surprised at your reaction to him.
Perhaps you should be using a broker to find your planes so you don't get insulted?
A little on the sensitive side don't you think?
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Well, I guess asking direct questions about a product, and never getting a direct answer makes me sensitive? Hmmmmm, ok I guess.

To review: Weight? Brakes? Hail damage?

Can I buy a vowel? This isn't rocket surgery.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Ah...real buyers say, "I saw your airplane on Barnstormers...it's pretty. Please overnight me copies of all the logs since new."?
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And real sellers say, "Thank you. I think she is pretty too. Copies are a dime a page and overnight costs about $25. The logs are about a hundred pages so a check for $50 will cover it and I'll refund the difference."


Jim
 
Yeah, I wasn't ready to get married to the plane, I just please, I'm begging you here, just a sliver of help, just the most basic, and generic info would be appreciated, just a smidge of effort to look in the log for the weight, and maybe what brakes are installed. Just a second or two of your time to look at the top of the wing for hail. Really, I've made an effort to search out the plane I want, make the call, and express some interest. You don't know if I'm a buyer, or a tire kicker, but really if I am a buyer, is this how you want to treat someone? Am I going to make a second call, or a trip to see your plane if you don't know the weight of your plane, or the type of brakes? I guess if you don't know, the best answer is 'I don't know'. Nothing wrong with that, if you don't know just effing say SO!
 
UngaWunga said:
As a buyer its very frustrating to come across a seller that either doesn't know basic information about their aircraft or won't give you the info. Pictures. How hard is it to take a bunch of pictures and load them on one of the dozens of free photo hosting sites? Spend the $10 and get the logs scanned and put the PDF on the same site as the pictures. Not hard to do. That'll cover 90% of the questions sellers get.

The questions about empty weight? I ask them too, because they're all over the place for the model I'm interested in.

What STCs have been added to the plane? Why is that a hard question? Sellers should know that stuff, or put it in the ad so they don't have to keep answering questions about it.

Some sellers just suck at selling stuff.
Click to expand...

Ding...ding.....ding.... We have a winner! :thumbsup:
 
docmirror said:
Well, I guess asking direct questions about a product, and never getting a direct answer makes me sensitive? Hmmmmm, ok I guess.

To review: Weight? Brakes? Hail damage?

Can I buy a vowel? This isn't rocket surgery.
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1390 lbs empty, 52 gals of fuel full, Cleveland, no hail.

Want to buy? :wink2:
 
Unit74 said:
Didn't see where A&P IA was on the SEL or Instrument PTS anywhere. Did I miss that section or is there an entirely different module I missed?
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You must have missed the section in the commercial checkride where you are required to actually have good knowledge about the aircraft your flying, the systems within it, and how they work. Maybe you don't hold yourself to those standards, fair enough. A pilot who has a good working knowledge and understanding of how his aircraft functions is a much better pilot than one who doesn't; troubleshooting in emergencies, for example.

There are definitely a few morons on this thread; the leader has for some reason named himself after a lizard :rolleyes:
 
I'm with unit74. This is a hobby, not a religion. Writing a check does not imply maintenance ignorance. Is there no moderation in the way people approach anything anymore? Everything has to be religious commitment or you're not worthy? Enough with the false dichotomies already.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I'm with unit74. This is a hobby, not a religion. Writing a check does not imply maintenance ignorance. Is there no moderation in the way people approach anything anymore? Everything has to be religious commitment or you're not worthy? Enough with the false dichotomies already.
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One more time with vigor.

Weight? Brakes? Hail? Should this take ~15 minutes of conversation?

Maybe that's considered heretical these days. Write the check and be damned happy about it I guess.
 
docmirror said:
One more time with vigor.

Weight? Brakes? Hail? Should this take ~15 minutes of conversation?

Maybe that's considered heretical these days. Write the check and be damned happy about it I guess.
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I think you are fighting two different battles here.

One is about the responsibility of a seller to have command of all relevant information at the ready for a seller (and about his rambling verbosity).

The other is a bit of thread drift over the pilot's responsibility to be intimately involved in the repair and maintenance of his own air plane.
 
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