GA Transportation Myth

[wsuffa]

As with anything else, it all depends.

Business travel with multiple stops in smaller communities over a few days? GA generally wins.

Travel to/from major hubs w/little competition (yes, Cincinnati, I'm talking about you). GA usually wins cost-wise under 750 miles. Time-wise, GA wins door-door under about 400 miles.

Long haul (DC-LAX): airlines win.

International: airlines win.

Pure pleasure flying? GA.

Cities that are infrequently served, GA may or may not win.

When I was in San Antonio, I did both, a lot. It was faster/cheaper to fly myself from SA to New Orleans and avoid a connection in Houston. It was faster (and FAR cheaper) to fly myself on a 5 day trip that would go San Antonio - Memphis - Charlotte - Blacksburg - Fort Meade - Cincinnati - San Antonio than it would ever have been to go commercial. SA to downtown Dallas GA was much more convenient, though a wash time-wise.

Going to LAX from Washington, however, the commercial RT fares are $250-$500 on a reasonable advance purchase, making GA completely noncompetitive.

 

[Trapper John]

Scenario #3
Trip to/from airport and preflight at both ends total time 1.5 hrs $112.50
3.5 hours round trip in Comanche (my time) $262.50
Fuel in Comanche for round trip $182.00
Car fuel to airports $3.00
Total fuel and time costs: $560

Dang! Where can I find another Comanche like yours where the only hourly cost is the gas?


Trapper John

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Dang! Where can I find another Comanche like yours where the only hourly cost is the gas?


Trapper John

Exactly.

However, if you have the airplane ANYWAY, might as well use it.

But to not figure in the fixed costs is in itself a tad misleading.

 

[tonycondon]

Exactly.

However, if you have the airplane ANYWAY, might as well use it.

But to not figure in the fixed costs is in itself a tad misleading.

true but i dont think it would cost 800 bucks in non fuel costs for ed to fly 3.5 hrs to sidnaw and back

 

[Anthony]

Exactly.

However, if you have the airplane ANYWAY, might as well use it.

But to not figure in the fixed costs is in itself a tad misleading.

You should really use the total hourly operating/ownership cost of the airplane. However, as you say if you already have it, you can argue its a sunk cost and just use the marginal (variable) expenses to do the calculation. Actually, if presenting this as a business case, I would show the costs both ways. Just saying there are a few different ways to look at it. Maybe just use the one that makes sense to fly yourself.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I take offense to this entire article.

Why am I not surprised?

I've found that in most cases I can get to where I want to go faster and about the same price as Airlines, and I don't have to deal with their schedules, their moron employees and their "Federal Regulations." I still deal with the same problem of transportation when I get to where I want to go, but its the same as airlines.

Yeah, in a lot of cases, that is true.

I can pee when I want, I can smoke when I want, I can divert if I want, and I have full control over where I go.

If I want to go to some place within a state, I don't have to go to a major city, I can go anywhere there's an airport.

Did I mention if I bring my girlfriend with me, its often cheaper than flying in an airliner?

Valid points.

Airlines are bloated and often a waste of time and money. They've become more hassle than they're worth.

Tell us how you REALLY feel.

The writer of that article is an idiot that is airline struck. Good for him.

That is a little harsh. Well, actually a LOT harsh. The author makes a lot of valid points, whether you want to admit it or not. AND if he is on one side of the issue, you apparently are just as far on the opposite side of the same issue. No middle ground???

Let me ask you a question. What is your typical trip length? Because, like it or not, there is some point at which airline travel is more cost efficient that GA flying.

 

[gismo]

If you live anywhere in/near a metro area, commercial wins out.

A common flight for me.

Minneapolis to Bellaire Michigan:

Drive
12-13 hours

Fly commercial
Drive to MSP and park 40 min
Baggage and security check 20 min
Boarding 15 min
Extra time to avoid missing flight 30 min
Flight 1:15 (direct, 3:30 to 5:30 if connecting)
Deboard, retrieve bags, rent car 30 min
Drive to lake 45 min
Total 4:15 direct or 5:30-7:30 connecting

Fly myself
Drive to FCM 15 min
Load plane and preflight 30 min
Flight (2:00) plus taxi time (15) 2:15
Unload airplane 20 min
Drive to lake 10 min
Total 3:30

The round trip cost for a direct flight is $500-800 per seat. The lowest connecting flight is $200/seat but is only available for a Saturday departure. Other connecting flights are available for $400-450 per seat.

My direct cost is about $600 total and I normally have two or three others with me so the cost meets of beats the lowest fare and is $2600 cheaper than some of the direct flights if there are four of us. In addition, I can bring my dog, eliminating the need to put him in a kennel (more time and money), the baggage apes don't get to destroy or lose my luggage, I never have to remove my clothes or wait in lines, and I can pretty much bring whatever I like without a "surcharge".

And that's not considering the flexibility that flying my own plane offers, going and returning when it suits me vs some airline schedule is almost priceless sometimes.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

true but i dont think it would cost 800 bucks in non fuel costs for ed to fly 3.5 hrs to sidnaw and back

That depends on how much he actually flys the plane. If he flys 150 to 200 hours a year, probably not. But anything under about 100 hours and it may be close.

 

[Trapper John]

true but i dont think it would cost 800 bucks in non fuel costs for ed to fly 3.5 hrs to sidnaw and back

I dunno. At $75/hour, it costs Ed $191,000 a year just to sleep, so I suppose anything's possible!

I've found that the, "my time is worth this much" argument's only value is using it as a rationalization tool for something I want to do.


Trapper John

 

[Greg Bockelman]

And that's not considering the flexibility that flying my own plane offers, going and returning when it suits me vs some airline schedule is almost priceless sometimes.

You make a good point, Lance. But you have an airplane that is capable of going 90% or more of the time and the ability to use those capabilities.

The one thing I HAVEN'T seen mentioned is the fact that in very many cases, you CANNOT go when you want in GA. Weather, Icing, wind and what not will delay or cancel a lot of flights for a lot of people. In such cases, GA is not really a reliable source of transportation

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I've found that the, "my time is worth this much" argument's only value is using it as a rationalization tool for something I want to do.


Trapper John

Exactly. The only time it is really worth much at all is if you could actually USE that time to generate that much income.

 

[SkyHog]

Let me ask you a question. What is your typical trip length? Because, like it or not, there is some point at which airline travel is more cost efficient that GA flying.

Without a doubt, when flying to major cities, you are correct. For example, if I wanted to fly to Manchester, NH, (or for that matter, anywhere in New England) from New Mexico, airlines is the cheapest and fastest way to go (hasslewise? still pretty bad).

But I'd have to redraw my circle to give an exact mileage. Its a lot more than you'd think though. For example, flying anywhere in Colorado, Wyoming, Kansas, Texas, Arkansas, California, Utah, Idaho, Nebraska, and possibly even Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, and Montana on that list too, assuming we're talking cost and time alone.

Of course - either method of travel leaves you with no transportation from the airport to your destination, but at least GA will get you closer in many instances.

 

[RMCN172RG]

For me the test flight was PHN to MYR for a five day trip which I do 8-10 times per year.

The long time best option was to Drive which is 17-18 hours and now that my wife and I are older requires an overnight stop. Turning the 5 day trip into a seven day trip with hotels, meals and not really a viable cost effective option unless I have the need to relocate cars or move something extremely large.

Flying has three options commercial NWA from DTW, FNT or 172RG from PHN. With the Delta merger the FNT option has not been price competive except for ATL connections which increases the time advantage to DTW direct or PHN GA.

I figure $500 cost for the trip as a portion of the airplane annual total cost. Ffrom a pure cost standpoint, no hourly rate for our time all the options are within $100 860-960.

The time difference NWA/DTW versus GA/PHN is about 1/2 hour shorter on commercial. However as my wife points out with less than two hours in the air and restrooms all along the way it is a lot easier on the body to fly NWA.

The big caveat to the examples are:

When I book NW a month in advance I am 99% sure I will be traveling on the desired dates. Hurricanes and mechanical problems have in 10 years changed the return date a couple of times and the routing and arrival times once or twice but generally the travel is dependable.

I cannot be reasonably sure that the 600 mile trip, in winter (ICE) or summer T-storms, can be completed or even attempted when desired two weeks and some times two days in advance.

 

[steingar]

It was his own company's aircraft, the Icon A5:

Doh! Thanks!

 

[steingar]

Yeah, flying is undependable. There are all these delays and hassles. It is so horrible. I agree with everything. What I can't figure it is, despite living in a place with the least predictable of often worst weather, why don't I do driving trips anymore? I haven't stopped doing trips, indeed I do more, since I go to a number of fly-ins yearly. I can count the number I've driven since I got my PPL on the fingers of one hand. I have a touring motorcycle, and I don't tour.

 

[jesse]

I dunno. At $75/hour, it costs Ed $191,000 a year just to sleep, so I suppose anything's possible!

I've found that the, "my time is worth this much" argument's only value is using it as a rationalization tool for something I want to do.


Trapper John

It depends. Some folks are in a position where they basically have an unlimited amount of work and can bill high value for those hours.

I can personally say that most of the time -- I can't convert dead time into billable time. I've had some periods in my life, several months at a time, where I have been able to convert any free hour into billable time at $75 or more. When that happens I really do have to start putting a price on my time.

I wish I could figure out more ways to always be able to get as much billable time as I could...That day will come..and when it does I'll miss what it's like now

 

[ghayes]

Interesting thread, I suspect this subject has been discussed since that first flight.

I'd say there's absolutely no way GA is more economical than any other transportation method to anywhere when you figure in all the expense, and time, of getting the PPL, ratings, keeping current, etc. etc. (I know all those were mentioned in the thread already).

However, being someone who got their PPL just for the pure fun of it, cost is just a nasty side-effect. What other hobbies are there where you can actually use it for a practical purpose? A jet-ski isn't going to get you anywhere all that useful.

Flying is, by far, the most expensive hobbie I have, and would argue it's probably the most expensive hobbie anyone can have. But like others have said, I would have spent all that money on something else if I wasn't spending it on flying (or aircraft ownership for that matter). I'm sure I'd be no richer financially. GA is a funny beast .. you have to spend a lot of money to spend even more money.

And if the LSA market helps bring more pilots to the sky's, well, that (in theory) helps lower the costs for eveyone. Did that happen? I don't think so :-(

LSA as a practical means of transportation? I wouldn't really think so either. I've never flown one, but I'd really hate to be in one in IMC in bumby cumulous clouds or on a bouncy ILS approach. I'd think my heavy Mooney is a more comfortable and safer ride. And to the point of the thread, a 1974 M20F is more than half the cost of a new LSA. Sure, compared to a fancy, new LSA, some may say the cockpit of the Mooney is old fashioned ... I'd call it reliable.

As was already said: Being able to fly MYSELF when and where I want on MY (well, the WX) schedule? Priceless.

 

[TMetzinger]

Let's talk about weather.

Icing will ground GA and the jets can go. (and even if I've got a FIKI GA airplane, I'm not launching into known icing unless it's got hot wings - FIKI on a piston airplane, as far as I'm concerned, is an escape mechanism that's had some provenence, not a "keep going" mechanism).

Thunderstorms at your departure or destination will scrub airlines and GA equally. Enroute storms can be better avoided by airliners with their good weather radar and their altitude capabilities. So I agree the airliners have an advantage here.

Now, let's talk about how weather far away from your route affects your flight. For your GA airplane it doesn't. For the airlines, your flight may be cancelled or delayed because the bad weather is affecting the inbound airplane you'll be taking outbound.

So, aside from icing, where the jets have a clear advantage, I don't see the airliners having it better. Yes, they do have it safer, but as I said earlier, given an instrument airplane and pilot, there are many situations where GA offers a more economical and reasonably reliable form of transport.

 

[SCCutler]

Tim, I'll say again:

when you are traveling to or from a major carrier's hub, a relatively short but intense period of bad weather can disrupt your ability to travel for (sometimes) days.

With my Bo, it disrupts my ability to travel only so long as the weather is actually bad.

I know I am rationalizing, of course.

 

[ggroves]

The author of the article is spot on. Very few people have time that is so valuable to justify the cost.

 

[Everskyward]

I think any time spent forecasting an aviation future is futile.

Absolutely. I would also add that any time forecasting the future, period, is futile because it isn't going to turn out like you think it will, that is, if you ever did any thinking about it in the first place. I have a life I wouldn't have imagined back when I started taking flying lessons, especially since both the military and the airlines were out of the question not only because my eyesight isn't the greatest but because both seemed too regulated, regimented and "establishment" for me at the time. The airlines gradually relaxed their eyesight requirement but I was still pretty sure they weren't for me even though, at the time, the eventual monetary payoff was very tempting. Now even that is diminished.

So when anybody asks me if they should learn to fly, I just tell them I'm the poster child for how flying can be an instrumental part of a successful career that has absolutely nothing in the job description that is aviation-related.

People often ask me for career advice and how I planned to get where I ended up. I'm reluctant to say anything because not only would I not suggest my path or my "plan", which I really didn't have. If I had been the ambitious type I would have been much more proactive about my career than I have been. I've only made a few leaps of faith. I'm just lucky that I have been able to make a steady, stable living all this time in aviation which is something many people can't say.

However, if you have the airplane ANYWAY, might as well use it.

But to not figure in the fixed costs is in itself a tad misleading.

I've made this point before in other threads.

I don't understand why you need to justify the cost if it's something you enjoy. Are people justifying it to their family, their friends, themselves? Take boats, another big ticket item. People rarely use their speedboats or yachts for transportation or for any practical use. Does someone buy a bass boat and then try to justify the cost by saying the fish they catch are worth something? Let's see, in the grocery store fish cost...

The one thing I HAVEN'T seen mentioned is the fact that in very many cases, you CANNOT go when you want in GA. Weather, Icing, wind and what not will delay or cancel a lot of flights for a lot of people. In such cases, GA is not really a reliable source of transportation

That's a great point, especially around here if you want to go west. Reading everyone's stories I think the utility of GA depends on the weather where you live and where you want to go, the availability of airlines in those locations, the distance you want to fly, the capability of yourself and the equipment you fly, and your ability to be flexible. No one's situation is exactly the same.

 

[SkyHog]

I don't understand why you need to justify the cost if it's something you enjoy. Are people justifying it to their family, their friends, themselves? Take boats, another big ticket item. People rarely use their speedboats or yachts for transportation or for any practical use. Does someone buy a bass boat and then try to justify the cost by saying the fish they catch are worth something? Let's see, in the grocery store fish cost...

I justify it because its easy to justify:

Lets say my GF and I are going to Las Vegas on Friday, July 24, returning on Monday, July 27:

Southwest Airlines:
Base Fare: $214.88 per person, one way
Taxes: 19.72 per person, one way
PFC (whatever that is): $3.00 there, $4.50 back
Security fee: $2.50

1 hour 35 minute flight + 2 hours to get through security each way
3 day bus pass $15
Total Cost: 5 hours, 10 minutes @ $978.40

General Aviation:
Rental cost: $135 per hour, Piper Arrow
Taxes: 6%
Insurance: $5 per hour
3 hour flight each way, plus 15 minutes to preflight
3 day bus pass $15
Total Cost: 6 hours, 30 minutes @ $906.30 after tax

Looks cheaper and not a lwhole lot longer to me....what does it take to get you to admit it, guys?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I justify it because its easy to justify:

I think you missed Mari's point. If you enjoy it, you don't really need to justify it.

Looks cheaper and not a lwhole lot longer to me....what does it take to get you to admit it, guys?

Look, Nick. People justify things in different ways. Don't try to "force" your way of justifying on other people. What works for you may not work for others. We are all individuals and one size does not fit all.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Despite the fact that I waste a lot of it on here, my time is valuable. In rural mountainous areas GA is a timesaver over driving. Not really the point of the article but I would point it out anyway.

My plane has become our favorite grocery-getter. 45 minutes by air or 2 - 2 1/2 hours by car. With the circuitous routes we sometimes have to drive here (or in Colorado, Montana etc) even the fuel mileage begins to equalize with driving.

But yes it requires VFR weather - at least MVFR anyway.

 

[SkyHog]

I think you missed Mari's point. If you enjoy it, you don't really need to justify it.

Well, of course. That's the X-Factor that caused us all to get our Certs, I'd think. I love flying, and would do it even if it were much more expensive

Look, Nick. People justify things in different ways. Don't try to "force" your way of justifying on other people. What works for you may not work for others. We are all individuals and one size does not fit all.

I agree, but the only way one could justify airline flight would be to value 1 hour and 20 minutes to be worth a few hundred dollars, which I suppose is possible to some.

 

[tonycondon]

There are also certain circumstances where it is worth the extra time and possibly money to leave the flying to someone else.

 

[Everskyward]

I justify it because its easy to justify:

Lets say my GF and I are going to Las Vegas on Friday, July 24, returning on Monday, July 27:

Southwest Airlines:
Base Fare: $214.88 per person, one way
Taxes: 19.72 per person, one way
PFC (whatever that is): $3.00 there, $4.50 back
Security fee: $2.50

1 hour 35 minute flight + 2 hours to get through security each way
3 day bus pass $15
Total Cost: 5 hours, 10 minutes @ $978.40

General Aviation:
Rental cost: $135 per hour, Piper Arrow
Taxes: 6%
Insurance: $5 per hour
3 hour flight each way, plus 15 minutes to preflight
3 day bus pass $15
Total Cost: 6 hours, 30 minutes @ $906.30 after tax

Looks cheaper and not a lwhole lot longer to me....what does it take to get you to admit it, guys?

Do you want another real example? This is a 6-day trip I returned from yesterday.

Frontier Airlines DEN-SFO round trip includes all charges: $239.20
Super Shuttle both ways to SFO: $40.00
Parking in Denver: $48.00
Total cost: $327.20

So tell me what GA airplane I could rent for 6 days, fly 838 nm straight line distance (remember this is over the Rockies) for $327.20, or twice that, or three times that...

But like I said, if you get pleasure out of flying yourself, why try to justify it?

 

[EdFred]

For those that think their free time is not worth figuring into the equation, I have a lot of yard work I'd like you to do for that same figured amount of $0

 

[Everskyward]

For those that think their free time is not worth figuring into the equation, I have a lot of yard work I'd like you to do for that same figured amount of $0

Yeah, but don't you mostly do your own yard work rather than pay someone $10/hr or whatever it costs for yard work labor these days? You're losing $65/hr!

 

[EdFred]

For the major stuff I will be paying someone else to do it.

 

[Everskyward]

For the major stuff I will be paying someone else to do it.

Major stuff, yeah, I do that too, but not because I think my time is worth that much. Last year when they were finishing my basement many days I was here surfing the internet...

 

[TMetzinger]

Tim, I'll say again:

when you are traveling to or from a major carrier's hub, a relatively short but intense period of bad weather can disrupt your ability to travel for (sometimes) days.

With my Bo, it disrupts my ability to travel only so long as the weather is actually bad.

I know I am rationalizing, of course.

I agree with you on this - I think that's what I said in an earlier post.

Icing is the only real weather event where the airliners have a no-doubt-about-it advantage.

 

[gismo]

Exactly. The only time it is really worth much at all is if you could actually USE that time to generate that much income.

Try convincing a "rich" man who knows he only has 6 months to live that his time's only worth the amount of income he could produce with it. It's all a matter of perspective.

And for those of us not so well off financially but with a bit more time left, another way to put a value on time (specifically recreational time) would be to take their income and divide it by the amount of free time they have which isn't consumed by commuting, kids, sleep, eating, and mandatory chores. On that basis a person earning a measly $100k/yr working 60 hours leaving about 10 "free" hours per week would value that free time at $200/hr.

 

[ClimbnSink]

No one is counting hours spent on FR, IPCs, training, washing the plane lining up annuals oil changes etc. Not that it matters. Personally I think justifying stuff is silly. You want it and you can afford it, it's yours. Besides the less practical the vehicle the more of a cool toy it is.

 

[jesse]

On that basis a person earning a measly $100k/yr working 60 hours leaving about 10 "free" hours per week would value that free time at $200/hr.

lmfao...measly...100,000 a year. All a matter of perspective

 

[Ted]

Flying is, by far, the most expensive hobbie I have, and would argue it's probably the most expensive hobbie anyone can have.

I'll argue that. Hey buddy's Cigarette boat costs him more than my Aztec costs me (near as I can tell) and has virtually zero useful function. Plus it gets 1 mpg instead of my Aztec's 8.5 mpg.

 

[gismo]

I'll argue that. Hey buddy's Cigarette boat costs him more than my Aztec costs me (near as I can tell) and has virtually zero useful function. Plus it gets 1 mpg instead of my Aztec's 8.5 mpg.

Yeah, but I'll be it floats better than the Aztec.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Icing will ground GA and the jets can go. (and even if I've got a FIKI GA airplane, I'm not launching into known icing unless it's got hot wings - FIKI on a piston airplane, as far as I'm concerned, is an escape mechanism that's had some provenence, not a "keep going" mechanism).

Even with hot wings on a jet, FIKI is an escape mechanism and not a "keep going mechanism." Think Roselawn. It's just that to get out of the ice, you may need a turbo piston at least.

Ice is by far the major weather factor for me, but it's not a factor for 2/3 of the year, and even in that remaining 1/3 there's enough VFR and enough non-icing IFR that I only cancel a handful of flights a year over it.

 

[TMetzinger]

Even with hot wings on a jet, FIKI is an escape mechanism and not a "keep going mechanism." Think Roselawn. It's just that to get out of the ice, you may need a turbo piston at least.

Ice is by far the major weather factor for me, but it's not a factor for 2/3 of the year, and even in that remaining 1/3 there's enough VFR and enough non-icing IFR that I only cancel a handful of flights a year over it.

Roselawn was an ATR turboprop with boots, not hot wings. I'm not aware of any ice-accretion accidents occuring in turbofans/turbojets with properly functioning de-ice systms.

 

[jsstevens]

I justify it because its easy to justify:

Lets say my GF and I are going to Las Vegas on Friday, July 24, returning on Monday, July 27:

Southwest Airlines:
Base Fare: $214.88 per person, one way
Taxes: 19.72 per person, one way
PFC (whatever that is): $3.00 there, $4.50 back
Security fee: $2.50

1 hour 35 minute flight + 2 hours to get through security each way
3 day bus pass $15
Total Cost: 5 hours, 10 minutes @ $978.40

General Aviation:
Rental cost: $135 per hour, Piper Arrow
Taxes: 6%
Insurance: $5 per hour
3 hour flight each way, plus 15 minutes to preflight
3 day bus pass $15
Total Cost: 6 hours, 30 minutes @ $906.30 after tax

Looks cheaper and not a lwhole lot longer to me....what does it take to get you to admit it, guys?

Is the $135/hour wet?

John