GA Transportation Myth

The Guest Speaker column in this month's Plane and Pilot Magazine had an interesting paragraph in it.

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pil...ng-the-sport-back-to-flying-kirk-hawkins.html

It is the paragraph titled GA Transportation Myth. I personally cannot disagree with the premise.

Comments?

I don't think he's wrong, but I don't think $100k+ LSAs are the answer either. The 1,320 lb LSA weight limit is dumb, but if they'd raise it to include C-140s, C-150s, C-152s, Cherokee 140s, etc., the entry price would drop to around $25k which is down around the price of a dressed up Harley, decent fishing boat and the other things that are competing for peoples recreational dollars.

Plus, people are balling up LSAs at twice the rate of other GA planes, and it's not just inexperienced sport pilots doing it. Sturdy old trainers like I listed above would be safer, I'd bet.


Trapper John
 
I understand why the magazine would publish such an article that seeks to rally the troops to the cause. I'm just not sure there's a big market segment that would take up flying just for the joy of it, given the cost disparity between flying and fly-fishing or rock-climbing or paint-ball--or even golf. Even boating, as expensive as it is, is significantly less costly for someone looking for a hobby. The barriers to entry are also much lower.

Even the relatively-modest (to those who have paid for a PPL or more) cost of an LSA rating is a pretty big chunk of dough for someone who's just going to make circles of various sizes.

To think a guy will spend something north of $100k for a two-place airplane he can only fly in good weather and daylight, especially if he doesn't have anywhere to go, doesn't make any sense to me. I think he's whizzing against the wind, and that LSA will continue to be mostly guys who can't pass a medical.

The Guest Speaker column in this month's Plane and Pilot Magazine had an interesting paragraph in it.

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pil...ng-the-sport-back-to-flying-kirk-hawkins.html

It is the paragraph titled GA Transportation Myth. I personally cannot disagree with the premise.

Comments?
 
I don't think he's wrong, but I don't think $100k+ LSAs are the answer either. The 1,320 lb LSA weight limit is dumb, but if they'd raise it to include C-140s, C-150s, C-152s, Cherokee 140s, etc., the entry price would drop to around $25k which is down around the price of a dressed up Harley, decent fishing boat and the other things that are competing for peoples recreational dollars.

Plus, people are balling up LSAs at twice the rate of other GA planes, and it's not just inexperienced sport pilots doing it. Sturdy old trainers like I listed above would be safer, I'd bet.

The FAA SPECIFICALLY made the rules so production planes wouldn't qualify as LSA. They were miffed enough that Piper Cubs and such got in under the wire.

THEY don't want a huge population of new pilots to deal with. It's the same line as when they held the line on such as Molt Taylor's Aerocar back then. The last thing they want is 100,000 or more newbies to watch.

Consider that even now they have to answer when a "No license!" LSA goes down and they have to explain how they allow it.
 
The FAA SPECIFICALLY made the rules so production planes wouldn't qualify as LSA. They were miffed enough that Piper Cubs and such got in under the wire.

THEY don't want a huge population of new pilots to deal with. It's the same line as when they held the line on such as Molt Taylor's Aerocar back then. The last thing they want is 100,000 or more newbies to watch.

Consider that even now they have to answer when a "No license!" LSA goes down and they have to explain how they allow it.

Totally agree! LSA is here to pacify us with being happy with flying around the patch. Oh, what freedom! I'm up in the air, oh boy, that's great, cant' fly to the beach or the mountains though. Can't carry any gear, golf clubs or the girlfriend's/wife's steamer trunk. Can't get to that business meeting either.

What bunk. The goal is to stop us from being to able to USE GA AS TRANSPORTATION, so we don't "clog the skies with weekend pilots".

:mad3:
 
The FAA SPECIFICALLY made the rules so production planes wouldn't qualify as LSA. They were miffed enough that Piper Cubs and such got in under the wire.

THEY don't want a huge population of new pilots to deal with. It's the same line as when they held the line on such as Molt Taylor's Aerocar back then. The last thing they want is 100,000 or more newbies to watch.

Consider that even now they have to answer when a "No license!" LSA goes down and they have to explain how they allow it.

Got a source for this? The 1320 is an ICAO thing, not really FAA. As to the rest...:confused:
 
The FAA SPECIFICALLY made the rules so production planes wouldn't qualify as LSA. They were miffed enough that Piper Cubs and such got in under the wire.

THEY don't want a huge population of new pilots to deal with. It's the same line as when they held the line on such as Molt Taylor's Aerocar back then. The last thing they want is 100,000 or more newbies to watch.

Consider that even now they have to answer when a "No license!" LSA goes down and they have to explain how they allow it.

You're probably right...

I see a plasticky Evektor for $110k and I go, "ugh". I see a nice old Champ for $25k and I go, "Yeah, I can see putting around in this."


Trapper John
 
Got a source for this? The 1320 is an ICAO thing, not really FAA. As to the rest...:confused:

Besides I thought the FAA's motivation was capturing and legalizing all the overweight "two place ultralights" already flying.
 
It is the paragraph titled GA Transportation Myth. I personally cannot disagree with the premise. Comments?

Personally I derive a great deal of utility from a small single engine airplane. My extended family is spread over that 250-400 mile radius and my wife and daughter are spending the summer 9 hours away by car.

However, when folks talk to be about learning to fly to go up North to that cabin I always grimace a bit. The hobby is an obsession. Like all of you I read every scrap I can, I try to visit an instructor every six months for an IPC and some safety work, I practice on an ATC 610 simulator ... and with a healthy dose of cowardice can make it work almost as many weekends as I can afford it. You just aren't going to manage practical transportation after investing $5K in a PPL and showing up at an FBO rental counter unless you have a significant committment beyond the pure transportation need.

I do think we should advertise the enormous number of medical patients spared a bus ride by one of the charity VPO groups or the respectable number of patients carried by business jets as part of Miracle Miles or the small business in fairfield iowa that couldn't survive without the local 135 operation or its own light twin. I have always felt the general aviation has a role like the HAM radio REACT geeks. In an emergency or special circumstance its a small but very unique complement to all the other infrastructure.

As for the larger premise of the article I am not sure. I would need to see the number of ab-initio Sport Pilots versus those simply lapsing back to "self certify" their medicals. Jay Maynard can you lend any anecdote to this? Are you getting new students using Sport Pilot as their end point or a stepping stone? I do salute the government for moving this end of the curve and making it more accessible, I had secretly always suspected that WAAS and ADS-B other technology was going to be used as a barrier to participate and throttle usage of the system. Light Sport reaffirms my faith that as long as the different ends of the spectrum can fit together there is room for them both.

Also, perhaps I am arrogant to insist that only the hardcore IFR nerd gets any utility out of the system. There are plenty of folks who sneer at my equipment and capability and affirm that two engines and FIKI before its really practical transportation ... an LSA would be a marvelous cross country machine especially if I were retired or commanded my own time more.

Those are my ramblings anyway ...
 
I would definitely argue the most time efficient manner point. There are a lot of flights that I make with the Aztec (or that I could make with an LSA/Archer/172) that would take me far longer by car or by commercial. Frequently, it is also more economical than commercial (although maybe not with the Aztec). More economical than driving, probably not, unless you factor in the value of my time.

The big thing that GA does for me is enable trips I otherwise couldn't make. How many of those trips I'd be making were it not for my involvement in GA is another matter (examples: Gaston's and 6Y9). However flying down to my cousin's wedding a few weeks ago and my other cousin's graduation the month before are both perfect examples of how I saved loads of time vs. driving or commercial.

For a number of people, I could see his statement being accurate. I also agree that trying to justify GA on any sort of cost savings is pretty much a lost cause (my expense sheet for the Aztec proves that), unless you've got time in the equation. The big things for me are time savings and fun.
 
The author does not appear to consider the extra time now wasted with
all the TSA crap.

But, sure transportation as the only the reason to fly? of course, not. I fly
because I love it. Being able to get somewhere while doing something I
love is just a bonus.
 
I live 30 minutes from Orlando International Airport. Even given all the TSA delays, I have very few trips that I can save time over commercial on. Now that the commuter jets are mostly gone there are more (one example is Orlando to Huntsville, AL. 4 hours by C-172 in still air, 6+ hours via commercial because of going through either Atlanta or Charllotte NC. But the cost is still a factor: that trip costs me ~$900 round trip ($42.50/tach hour, plus 8 gals/hour fuel burn). If I know ahead of time I can get airline tickets for ~$250 - and can be reasonably assured of getting there when they said I would. If I lived at a small feeder airport, there would be many more trips where time would be in my favor but when you live next to a major hub, there's not so many.

My time is not (yet) worth so much that I can justify the extra cost. Now if I had a 200knt airplane...

John
 
I've found that I can usually meet or beat any airline trip timewise that isn't direct. And with today's hub/spoke arrangement direct flights are fairly uncommon, at least for the places I usually go. Then there's the whole "how would I bring the dog, a waterski, and all my kid's stuff if we went commercial?" thing. I'm certain that if I never learned to fly, took all the money I've spent on aviation over the years and spent it on airline fares I could have travelled further and more often but the truth is I wouldn't have spent that much on airfare, I would have spent most of it on something else that was fun.
 
Let's be honest. If you just look at economics, going commercial will usually win out. Most of us are flying because its fun. We sometimes forget that in trying to justify GA flying.
 
Let's be honest. If you just look at economics, going commercial will usually win out. Most of us are flying because its fun. We sometimes forget that in trying to justify GA flying.

Just as we could go by bus instead of by our own cars.
 
One irony is that, while living at the hub city of a major airline gives you a strong likelihood of direct service to a broad array of destinations, it also means you're likely to face exceptionally high fares, so for trips of appropriate length, I can often reach parity on (incremental) cost. If I have two or more butts in seats, the Bo wins.

The other oddity is that, because DFW is its hub, when bad weather intervenes, they just cancel the whole damned schedule, accommodating connecting pax through other hubs and other carriers, leaving originators / destinators high and dry. As I have discovered, while the airliner goes 500 mph, when they cancel the entire returning schedule, I can wait out the weather and beat the airline.

But you're right- you can rarely justify the planes on purely practical grounds, but I remind you all that, even as expensive as GA flying is, it is still cheaper than psychotherapy- and it works a LOT better.
 
If you live anywhere in/near a metro area, commercial wins out.

But, as an example of the opposite case. I live 10 minutes from Dulles airport and 25 minutes from Leesburg airport in northern Virginia. I want to go visit my Parents in Eastern Connecticut.

Driving - 8-9 hours, about 60.00 one way in fuel and tolls.
Train - Total travel time 8 hours (including driving into DC, and driving from Hartford), for about 400 one way for my family of three.
Commercial - it's only a one hour flight from Dulles to Hartford, but I have to be at the airport 90 minutes early for luggage and then have to wait 30 minutes at hartford for luggage than drive an hour to parents house. So figure 4.5 hours portal-to-portal at $500 one way. I can add another 90 minutes of driving and save $200 by driving to BWI and taking SWA.
GA - drive 30 min to Leesburg. Depart 30 min later, and fly 2.5 hours and land in Windham CT. Mom drives 15 minutes to pick us up. Total time 3:45 portal-to portal, and cost for all three is $375 for airplane rental. And since it's a rental, that's my only cost. (Diamond Star is the airplane I'm referencing). The airfield has an ILS, so except in winter icing I can pretty much go, as thunderstorms ground airliners too.

Now, if I want to go farther or from one major metro area to another (which for lots of business travel is all you need) the airlines are cheaper, and sometimes faster. But if you are doing travel to "out of the way" places that aren't thousands of miles away the GA airplanes can be competitive, particularly if you place a value on your time. I can make lots of trips to places in a 500 NM radius and come back the same day, and I can't do that on the airlines, which means I need a hotel, rental car, etc.
 
I just want to know what kind of airplane he was standing in front of in the photo . Looked like a seriously swoopy biplane of some sort.
 
I'm just not sure there's a big market segment that would take up flying just for the joy of it
I did, and it wasn't easy for me to afford either since I was only 19. It wasn't until a number of years later that I decided to make it my career. I was attracted to the idea of freedom and being like a bird. It wasn't until much later that I realized that it's one of the more regulated activities I could have chosen. By then I guess I accepted the fact that if it was going to be my job that that's the way it was going to be.

Back a long time ago when I rented airplanes for fun I can't ever remember using them as a substitute for the airlines. I went to out of the way destinations that were really only accessible by small airplane unless you had time to drive a long way. When I really had to get somewhere I took the airlines because it was quicker, more reliable and less expensive, but I have almost always lived in a major metropolitan area.

On the other hand, I agree with this.

an LSA would be a marvelous cross country machine especially if I were retired or commanded my own time more.

On the whole, I think the article was right on.
 
Let's be honest. If you just look at economics, going commercial will usually win out. Most of us are flying because its fun. We sometimes forget that in trying to justify GA flying.


I agree. For someone like me flying VFR only it makes it really unpractical and unreliable to fly a lot of trips of any distance. Most of my trips are under 500 miles and I usually drive. Unlike other folks, my time isn't that valuable, lol. Once in a while I will fork over the extra cash and fly a trip if I can get a good wx forecast. So owning my 172 is purely a luxury and only use it for the fun of it. When I "have" to get somewhere I drive or take commercial.
 
Sounds reasonable to me. Start selling people on playing with airplanes instead of false notion of traveling. Tell folks to get a SP cert and go buzz their friends BBQs once in awhile.
 
I see a plasticky Evektor for $110k and I go, "ugh". I see a nice old Champ for $25k and I go, "Yeah, I can see putting around in this."

The Evektor is metal, and really is a fun airplane to fly. Of course, the Champ is better, but... :yes:
 
I just want to know what kind of airplane he was standing in front of in the photo . Looked like a seriously swoopy biplane of some sort.

It was his own company's aircraft, the Icon A5:

icon-a5-1.jpg
 
I would definitely argue the most time efficient manner point. There are a lot of flights that I make with the Aztec (or that I could make with an LSA/Archer/172) that would take me far longer by car or by commercial.

Amen.

A couple of flights that have driven home how useful GA can be: Houston to Madison on American Eagle (~900nm), I could have tied in the 182 (layover at DFW on AE), and amazingly, Twin Cities to Albuquerque (final destination: Socorro) on Northwest (no layover, but time in rental car on the other end to reach destination with a perfectly good GA airport right there...)

Then, there's flights that I've taken where the mission could not be accomplished via airline despite the presence of airline service due to timing issues, and even a couple where the airlines would have been more expensive.

If there's only one person going, the airlines are usually cheaper. Two or three people really tilts the scales in favor of GA.

For good utility in terms of scheduling, you really need an instrument rating, but I've made some very long trips VFR and on schedule as well - I just didn't really know for sure if I'd make it on time.

IMO, the "utility circle" for GA is often closer to 800nm than 500, and maybe even more. More than 800nm via GA in a day does get tiresome though, unless you're going pretty fast (Most of my long trips have been in the 182 at ~130 KTAS). The faster the airplane, the bigger the circle gets and the more people you need to make it financially advantageous. But overall, it's not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be. :no:
 
The Evektor is metal, and really is a fun airplane to fly. Of course, the Champ is better, but... :yes:

I must have been thinking of something else - looked like a Diamond that went on Nutrisystem...but not as well crafted as a Diamond.


Trapper John
 
If there's only one person going, the airlines are usually cheaper. Two or three people really tilts the scales in favor of GA.

And when you put 4-5 people in the Aztec all going to the same place, the Aztec does start to be attractive. At least from a fuel cost perspective. Everything else, well, I've already stated my opinion on that.

Time wise, though, it's won out many times.
 
To think a guy will spend something north of $100k for a two-place airplane he can only fly in good weather and daylight, especially if he doesn't have anywhere to go, doesn't make any sense to me. I think he's whizzing against the wind, and that LSA will continue to be mostly guys who can't pass a medical.

Agreed. I just can't figure out the excitement about $100k+ two-seaters.

AFA transportation, I guess because the Matrix has good speed I find it beats commercial for all of my needs. I've run the numbers, and flown the flights and, from a time perspective, it's a tie for flights to southern FL, and the Matrix wins to northern FL.
 
And since it's a rental, that's my only cost.

Yeah, but don't forget to add in all the rental time and costs to stay current, the medical, BFR's, etc. I believe unless you have a good business reason to fly GA, it is hard to justify. I don't try to justify it. I fly for business when it works out and the rest of the time because I like it. I don't try to justify any of my other "hobbies." How much is it worth to you to be able to fly? Priceless. Being able to use an airplane to actually get somewhere is just a bonus.
 
Sometimes it works very well. My GF and I just did a trip to Myrtle Beach were I turned a 10 hour drive into a 2.5 hour flight. Was even able to give rides to some of her family over the vacation which was a bonus to having the plane there. However, the weather cooperated and I had some flexibility in scheduele. Yes, like everyone else I've sat at FBO's to wait out weather or stayed overnight due to T-storms. Its just the reality of GA.

I agree with the others though its can't really be justified financially but adds soemthing to your life you can't really by elsewhere at any price.
 
Well all I can say is that it does cost, and a pretty penny too, and it is worth every cent.

I was at a fly-in about 70nm from the house one weekend while the wife was way down at the Gulf of Mexico (St. George Island) with a girlfriend of hers. It was supposed be a "girls" weekend, but by Saturday morning they were bored and wanted me to come on down and hang with them.

So the wife calls and I am at this fly-in, with only the clothes on my back and my wallet and she says "come on down". What do I do? I hope in the plane and less than two and 1/2 hours later I am "feet in the sand" drinking a beer and really enjoying life.

The next day I take off around noon to head back home and I get home around 2:30, the wife shows up at 7pm having to drive back. She said "next time we fly, and we can meet Melissa there".

Boy do I love my wife! :D
 
My story is similar, and based on those experiences, I think any time spent forecasting an aviation future is futile. I did the PPL during college because I wanted to and could devote part of my summer job earnings to lessons. Took 3 years, but got it done.

The airlines were hiring then, but when I looked at the long-term opportunities (a seniority number, decent living and maybe a pension in return for lots of time away from home) I chose to do something else. After 12 years of VFR flying to grandma's house and outlying bird-hunting trips, the 73 oil embargo created a need to travel to places where I had developed good business and were (overnight) no longer accessible by commercial carrier and too far to drive.

An instrument rating and a leased Mooney matched up to my travel needs, and for many years the only thing that changed was that the (many) airplanes got bigger and there were more of them. I concluded that the big difference for me wasn't so much about the time as the flexibility. Can you come tomorrow was a quick yes/no answer for me, without any fumbling with the reservations agent. I also found that almost any day the airlines could go, I could go too. Also found I could go on many days when the airline schedules were hopelessly AFU due to WX in other parts of the country. AFAIK, I've never had to cancel a trip because my airplane or crew was stuck in another city.

For me, travel has always been an inconvenience. Flying the airplane myself was, for a while, a bit of an adventure, but over time it just became part of the drill. After you fly ~500 hours per year for 20+ years your logbook is fatter--and your wallet is leaner--by a substantial margin, but if the hours in the plane translated to money in the bank it all makes sense. I never added up the cost comparisons because in the beginning I had no choice, and after I found out how much better life-style I enjoyed (home for family & kid stuff, golf games, etc.) I really didn't care. The airplane expenses were just one more line item on Schedule C.

Those experiences afforded the opportunities to upgrade pilot credentials and add some type ratings, which in turn created the opportunities to fly big airplanes around the world (for fun as well as some pocket money) and provided some additional credibility to the big-airplane advisory/consulting practice that I operate now. So when anybody asks me if they should learn to fly, I just tell them I'm the poster child for how flying can be an instrumental part of a successful career that has absolutely nothing in the job description that is aviation-related.




I did, and it wasn't easy for me to afford either since I was only 19. It wasn't until a number of years later that I decided to make it my career. I was attracted to the idea of freedom and being like a bird. It wasn't until much later that I realized that it's one of the more regulated activities I could have chosen. By then I guess I accepted the fact that if it was going to be my job that that's the way it was going to be.

Back a long time ago when I rented airplanes for fun I can't ever remember using them as a substitute for the airlines. I went to out of the way destinations that were really only accessible by small airplane unless you had time to drive a long way. When I really had to get somewhere I took the airlines because it was quicker, more reliable and less expensive, but I have almost always lived in a major metropolitan area.

On the other hand, I agree with this.



On the whole, I think the article was right on.
 
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...More economical than driving, probably not, unless you factor in the value of my time.
...
However flying down to my cousin's wedding a few weeks ago and my other cousin's graduation the month before are both perfect examples of how I saved loads of time vs. driving or commercial.
...
The big things for me are time savings and fun.

The time savings is the key. Being able to fly to the beach in two hours vice driving there in 4-5 hours (depending on traffic) or flying to visit family in 4 hours vice driving there in 9.5 hours is very valuable to me. The value proposition gets tilted toward GA even more when I throw in the fact I could take off from KJYO (near Dulles [KIAD]) and be nearly in North Carolina by the time I drove to IAD, parked, took the shuttle to the terminal, stripped to nearly boxers to get through security, waited at the gate and finally boarded the commercial plane to be squeezed in with the other chattel in coach.

Not to mention the value of the window seat view in GA is soo much better than any commercial window seat. :)

Plus the GA experience is hard to beat. I never tire of the reaction of friends I take on their first GA flight to a destination and they see the difference in quality of life. I've had a few marvel at how we can often have the rental car waiting for us (and we can drop it off) at the FBO, for example. Never mind the ability to drive up to the plane to transfer luggage.
 
Also, remember that there are some LSAs that can be flown IFR by an appropriately rated (and medical'ed) pilot. They can offer more fuel-efficient alternatives to four seat airplanes for travel if the mission is typically only one person.

That said, the "mission" of the LSA is to have more affordable fun flying.
 
Which fails miserably at a $100k and up price point...


Trapper John
for many, but not for all... There are several LSA schools near me and their schedules are busy, both with training and with certified pilots out flying for fun. The difference in the rental rate of a new 100K (LSA) and 300K (Skyhawk) aircraft is significant.
 
My free time is worth about $75/hr. So lets just use the going to 6Y9 trip as an example.

Scenario #1:
1000 miles r/t at 20mpg in the truck = $125.00 in gas at $2.50/gallon.
Plus 16 hours of driving @ $75/hr = $1200
Total for time and fuel: $1325

Scenario #2
Get to the airport at least 1.5 hours early because of TSA $112.50
R/T airline ticket to Marquette or Houghton $400
Layover in Detroit or Minneapolis 2 hours (x2) $300
Time spent on plane 1.75 hours (x2) $262.50
Driving/riding from SAW or CMX 1.25 hours (x2) $187.50
Fuel r/t from SAW/CMX $20.00
Parking at GRR for weekend $40.00
Total for time and tickets: $1322.50

Scenario #3
Trip to/from airport and preflight at both ends total time 1.5 hrs $112.50
3.5 hours round trip in Comanche (my time) $262.50
Fuel in Comanche for round trip $182.00
Car fuel to airports $3.00
Total fuel and time costs: $560
 
for many, but not for all... There are several LSA schools near me and their schedules are busy, both with training and with certified pilots out flying for fun. The difference in the rental rate of a new 100K (LSA) and 300K (Skyhawk) aircraft is significant.


Yeah, for training and renting. It works great for FBO owners.

But the LSA was supposed to increase the pool of owners, not renters. Typical government program - all those new regulations designed to reduce regulations.
 
My free time is worth about $75/hr. So lets just use the going to 6Y9 trip as an example.

You'd think all those business honchos going there would be a good market that would have been served. :D
 
I take offense to this entire article. Since we're specifically discussing the poor choice of calling out usability of GA as transportation....

I've found that in most cases I can get to where I want to go faster and about the same price as Airlines, and I don't have to deal with their schedules, their moron employees and their "Federal Regulations." I still deal with the same problem of transportation when I get to where I want to go, but its the same as airlines.

I can pee when I want, I can smoke when I want, I can divert if I want, and I have full control over where I go.

If I want to go to some place within a state, I don't have to go to a major city, I can go anywhere there's an airport.

Did I mention if I bring my girlfriend with me, its often cheaper than flying in an airliner?

Airlines are bloated and often a waste of time and money. They've become more hassle than they're worth.

The writer of that article is an idiot that is airline struck. Good for him.
 
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