GA pilot decline

[1RTK1]

Huckster, my field is pretty much like yours. Lots of planes but not many pilots are out there with the exception of the regulars.
We recently started having bbq’s Which brought out many that haven’t been seen for a long time, a few even started flying again.
Although college girls in bikinis washing planes would probably have a better draw than food.

 

[LongRoadBob]

I agree here too...

I was out at the airport the other day, it was beautiful and yet only two hangers had open doors. The typical two too...

I was recently “elected” President of the local aviation association, at that moment a bit against my will. But I was tinkering in hanger that day and got thinking there are things we could do different to help. I think maybe offering a few free intro flights in a drawing at the local community night and even just being there, sitting up a stand to talk with folks that it can be done and even by the average joe...

For those that are hangered there already I thought maybe we could do more to promote community, start doing hot dogs on the grill every other Saturday by the wash station inviting everyone actively, not just posting a note on the bulletin board that only the same few hanger rats are ever see it... Heck I’m there anyway, and just see where it goes. Maybe trying to get an email list of the local pilots and just share “hey wanna go to lunch anyone?”

Idk just thoughts at moment...

Where could I get college gals in bikinis for a plane wash event.... hmmm

Or contact the local high school to set up an introduction for them, visit the airport, flights, etc.

I don’t know about your airport, but when I first arranged to meet for a discovery flight, as I drove into the airport at the gate was a sign “military personnel only” etc. among a bunch of signs. I’m on Norway, but I’ve seen similar in the US at small airports. Anyway, the airport IS military primarily but they also open it up for GA. the sign wasn’t clear, at all, but just inside the gate the road forks and the right road goes to the restricted military area, the left to GA parking.

In any case, to a first time visitor it tends to make them uneasy and unsure if they are allowed to drive in there. This seems really counter productive to me. We do have folks, non pilots too, that are locals and know they are allowed, that go to a bunch of benches where they can watch takeoffs, landings.

But I mean, it seems like one would want advertising and a “welcome” sign at the gate. Maybe “come on in and watch or talk to someone about flying lessons”.

The small local newspapers too, no ads. They wouldn’t cost much.

I think nowadays most people do not think they can just drive into a small local airport.

I think too, just planting the idea in younger folks that they could learn to be a pilot could really help.

 

[Andrew M House]

Or contact the local high school to set up an introduction for them, visit the airport, flights, etc.

I don’t know about your airport, but when I first arranged to meet for a discovery flight, as I drove into the airport at the gate was a sign “military personnel only” etc. among a bunch of signs. I’m on Norway, but I’ve seen similar in the US at small airports. Anyway, the airport IS military primarily but they also open it up for GA. the sign wasn’t clear, at all, but just inside the gate the road forks and the right road goes to the restricted military area, the left to GA parking.

In any case, to a first time visitor it tends to make them uneasy and unsure if they are allowed to drive in there. This seems really counter productive to me. We do have folks, non pilots too, that are locals and know they are allowed, that go to a bunch of benches where they can watch takeoffs, landings.

But I mean, it seems like one would want advertising and a “welcome” sign at the gate. Maybe “come on in and watch or talk to someone about flying lessons”.

The small local newspapers too, no ads. They wouldn’t cost much.

I think nowadays most people do not think they can just drive into a small local airport.

I think too, just planting the idea in younger folks that they could learn to be a pilot could really help.

I've been around flying for a long time. My first flight when I was 15 and I'm 47. The problem is not getting people interested, it's figuring out how to keep them interested. It's great fun, a great way to travel, a great comunity, many people are exposed to flying at an early age through programs like Young Eagles. Then reality sets in, I need to figure out how to come up with $4-5k for a light sport license or $9-11k for a private license then to rent a plane after I have my license I'm looking at $120-150 an hour plus $5 a gallon for fuel and the scheduling nightmare for anything overnight. If I look at buying a plane I will need to either live with a 30+ year old plane where if I upgrade the the plane I will never recover the money I put in or I can get a newer plane but that is at least $100k, to get it to a reasonable figure for the middle class I will have to find several like mined pilots that want to share ownership. Lastly I could build what I want but that is usually 3-5 years of construction and possibly my marriage. What we need is a Honda or Toyota of planes, inexpensive, reliable, modern. Light sport failed in that regard it was supposed to give us the plane that would be the Cessna 150 of today. Cessna quit with the 162 becuase they couldn't produce it for less than $100k and very few people bought them. We need a new way to manufacture planes that reduces parts count and labor cutting the two most expensive portions of aircraft manufacturing. A metal rivited plane has 40-50k parts and takes between 400 and 1200 man hours to build. The composite aircraft have fewer parts but the construction time is still 400-1200 hours becuase of the finishing time required to smooth it all out not to mention the high cost of molds and female plugs to produce the molds.

I've looked long and hard at this problem. For us to get pilots returning in droves we need a plane that has a ready to fly price below $60k new which moves used planes into the 30-40k range after 3-5 years, this puts rental costs in the $40-60/ hr range cutting the cost to get a license and maintain currency by 1/2 to 2/3. A modern plane in this price range would see thousands of pilots return and new pilots would show up in numbers we probably couldn't imagine. A plane that can use alcohol free mogas would also cut operating costs as well. We have the tools and the technology. I'm working on the plane. Getting the less expensive fuel in common availability will help, so this isn't a one man effort we all have to find ways we can make it more economical.

PM me if you want to see how I'm planning on cutting the manufacturing costs.

 

[EdFred]

PM me if you want to see how I'm planning on cutting the manufacturing costs.

Getting rid of lawyers?

 

[camorton]

i realize this thread is very old but I appreciated some of the insights. I have considered pursuing a PPL for some time. I am now over 50. Here is what held me back:

1- The insurance and possible liability of flying a plane was prohibitive. My personal umbrella insurance would not cover it (I checked). Frankly, when you are young and have no assets you really do not care about it. When you are older and have assets to protect - liability becomes an issue. So the people that can more easily afford to get their PPL are the same people that think about liability. I think this would be solvable with a more specialized insurance company but it was a hurdle to have to figure it all out. "Is it really worth it" is constantly being asked during this process of figuring out how to handle liability.

2- When I ride in a car from the 70's and then return to a Tesla or even a new Toyota Rav4 from 2019 you can hardly believe they are related things. Frankly, any car from the 70's or even 80's screams 'relic'. Fun to try - yes. Trust your life with it? Heck no. I will take the modern Rav4. However, if you show me a Cessna 172 from the 70's and a new one - you have to carefully point out the differences. Frankly, piston aircraft have really lagged in tech. Cirrus is making an effort but by comparison to the auto industry it is still a laggard. Most students are shown a 172 "to try". That is your first impression of the state of GA. I have no idea why Cessna has failed to move the industry forward. It does not inspire you to think real improvements have been made in the industry.

Which leads to my last point...

3- We have access to worldwide information at the click of a button. As a potential new student, you will always, eventually, type in 'general aviation accidents" in Google. Instantly, you can find thousands of reasons to re-consider the hobby. Frankly, the web distorts danger. You will never read a million articles about all the safe GA flights that have occurred. You will only find article after article after article about all the pilots that have died while flying a GA plane. Google (not by intent - just by the nature of the service) is the real reason why people have an elevated fear of flying.

Combine this with insurance problems and the sense there has been little progress in the plane tech itself from the outside to actually make it safer - it is easier just to pass on it.

I have no idea if my issues are common or not. Just wanted to share them for those in GA trying to make a difference.

Vint43: Man, all I can say is don't let fear keep you from doing the things you really want to do in life. Aviation is a hobby that has enriched my life far beyond any other (and I have a lot of hobbies!). I am also in my early 50's, I have small children, and significant assets to protect (I'm not a 1%er, but surely a 5%er). I do pay a little extra on my life insurance to cover my flying activities, but I'm comfortable with my odds on liability. The odds of actually crashing are very low, and the odds of also injuring someone on the ground are far, far less. Don't take non-family members as passengers if you're really super paranoid. You should not have problems getting $1MM liability limits on a SR20, should you buy one. I happen to work for an insurance company. Trust me, 99% of personal injury attorneys will take an easy settlement for policy limits, rather than go after your house. Still not enough? Well, I feel very sorry for you. You are a VERY wealthy person who can't live the life they want because they're afraid something bad might happen. You better stop driving your car, also. You are FAR more likely to injure someone with that.

On point 2, you're just flat wrong. Take your average pilot from the 70's and stick them in an SR22. Flat panel displays, airbags, GPS, synthetic vision, digital autopilot with envelope protection, BRS, datalink weather and traffic? Their mind would be blown.

With regard to your third point, it's really just a restatement of your first: fear. You know, most people don't worry ENOUGH about something bad happening to them. You sound just the opposite. You clearly want to fly (why else hang out on a pilot board?), but you surf the net pouring over GA accident reports and let that convince you that it's too risky. You're going to spend the rest of your life looking up at the rest of us soaring over your head.

C.

 

[Passenger]

"On point 2, you're just flat wrong. Take your average pilot from the 70's and stick them in an SR22. Flat panel displays, airbags, GPS, synthetic vision, digital autopilot with envelope protection, BRS, datalink weather and traffic? Their mind would be blown."

Naw, would just say "Very pretty - but we still need flying cars ... and moon colonies."

 

[Andrew M House]

Getting rid of lawyers?

Well that would be one way, and I agree the tort laws are rediculous in that product liability on a plane is forever when car manufacturers are released after the warrenty expires for the most part.

 

[Brad Smith]

I’m not sure that building a plane the average man can afford is the answer. Do you really want to see the average/below average person up in the sky flying in the same airspace as you? The fact that flying is expensive tends to weed out the ones that are not really serious about flying and leaves the air to those that are dedicated and willing to put forth the effort to become safe, knowledgeable pilots.

On a similar note, I always thought the dream of putting a flying car in everyone’s garage was ridiculous. Can you imagine the average soccer mom making many trips a day to run her kids around in a personal aircraft in any weather, in any mental situation? Or the guy strapping in after having a few drinks at the local bar? Or the thousands of airborne vehicles during rush hour? It ain’t never gonna happen.

So there is an upside to having less pilots in the air...less crowded skies, shorter lineups, safer pilots, less chance of mid-airs etc. Remember when ultralights were popular the carnage and bad press that resulted? Yup, flying was made affordable to the general public and the result was predictable. There’s even a video on YouTube where a guy was given ground instruction by his buddies on how to fly an ultralight and then into the wild blue he goes. He actually was able to takeoff and ultimately land, but was the most stressful thing I’ve ever watched on YouTube.

I’m not saying that I don’t wish flying was somewhat cheaper, I’m just saying that it is what it is and those that want to fly will find a way to come up with the money to make it happen. Flying has always been exclusive and while the initiation cost is high, those that engage in flying find it rewarding and like no other pursuit in life.

 

[hindsight2020]

I'm willing to accept the higher carnage for the sake of a more affordable access across all levels of performance. Flying cars are not gonna become a reality, airliners will always have the stranglehold on desirable airspace, so that's a self limiting problem as far as the so called mouthbreathers are concerned.

I merely want the volumes they were cranking out in the 70s. People didnt bemoan those people as undesirables, so I don't see how going back to those levels of activity as a target today is blasphemy, lest old timers are being hypocrites and self righteous about it again.

 

[tjfelles]

 

[tjfelles]

The cost has gone up a bit since 1976...

 

[GeorgeC]

If acquisition is the cheapest part of airplane ownership, I'm not sure that driving down manufacturing costs will move the needle. If you could give away new SR22s for free, would people who are not already pilots care?

 

[1RTK1]

I’m not sure that building a plane the average man can afford is the answer. Do you really want to see the average/below average person up in the sky flying in the same airspace as you? The fact that flying is expensive tends to weed out the ones that are not really serious about flying and leaves the air to those that are dedicated and willing to put forth the effort to become safe, knowledgeable pilots.

On a similar note, I always thought the dream of putting a flying car in everyone’s garage was ridiculous. Can you imagine the average soccer mom making many trips a day to run her kids around in a personal aircraft in any weather, in any mental situation? Or the guy strapping in after having a few drinks at the local bar? Or the thousands of airborne vehicles during rush hour? It ain’t never gonna happen.

So there is an upside to having less pilots in the air...less crowded skies, shorter lineups, safer pilots, less chance of mid-airs etc. Remember when ultralights were popular the carnage and bad press that resulted? Yup, flying was made affordable to the general public and the result was predictable. There’s even a video on YouTube where a guy was given ground instruction by his buddies on how to fly an ultralight and then into the wild blue he goes. He actually was able to takeoff and ultimately land, but was the most stressful thing I’ve ever watched on YouTube.

I’m not saying that I don’t wish flying was somewhat cheaper, I’m just saying that it is what it is and those that want to fly will find a way to come up with the money to make it happen. Flying has always been exclusive and while the initiation cost is high, those that engage in flying find it rewarding and like no other pursuit in life.

Some time in the future there will be autonomous flying vehicles just as we will have the same in cars. It won’t be in my lifetime, but someday.
Oh, and it won’t be cheaper but I bet safer.......

 

[hindsight2020]

If acquisition is the cheapest part of airplane ownership, I'm not sure that driving down manufacturing costs will move the needle. If you could give away new SR22s for free, would people who are not already pilots care?

That's a myth. The financing on 500k greatly exceeds the cost of operation and mx on a yearly basis. My brand new car could blow up every year and cost me the difference in resale, which is the boogieman that people throw in about engine repairs. I just don't worry about such outliers, I just go fly and worry about that bridge when I get to it.

You dang skippy I would jump on an sr 22 if it were free, and chuck the arrow. I can easily afford to own and mx that. I can't afford to buy it. Capex will always be the real inflection point in my participation on this hobby, at my level of the hobby (single engine unpressurized piston).

 

[SoonerAviator]

. . . On a similar note, I always thought the dream of putting a flying car in everyone’s garage was ridiculous. Can you imagine the average soccer mom making many trips a day to run her kids around in a personal aircraft in any weather, in any mental situation? Or the guy strapping in after having a few drinks at the local bar? Or the thousands of airborne vehicles during rush hour? It ain’t never gonna happen . . .

I think you're conflating having a person "average income" be able to afford to fly/purchase a modern aircraft with a person of "average intelligence". No one is advocating that we necessarily encourage the "average soccer mom" to get up in the air, but it would be nice if someone of average income could afford to buy a new or relatively new aircraft. Say, someone with a household income of $100K. Most people at that income level aren't buying a C172, SR22, PA28, M20. Dropping 4-years' gross income doesn't happen for anything short of a house for most people, and it gets cramped trying to live in a C172.

 

[PPC1052]

Getting rid of lawyers?

Say what?

 

[EdFred]

Say what?

 

[1RTK1]

Lol

 

[Crashnburn]

Yep! And not just Sky King. Aunt Bea flew on Andy Griffith, there were several Perry Mason episodes which featured GA flying, there was The Flying Fisherman tv series, etc., etc.

But back then, TV was perhaps more popular with kids than today. Today, young folks are spending their time gaming on line. If you want to snag 'em, you need to develop a wildly popular game that has GA flying as an important component. AFAIK, nobody's doing that.

I remember "Whirlybirds"

 

[hindsight2020]

I think you're conflating having a person "average income" be able to afford to fly/purchase a modern aircraft with a person of "average intelligence". No one is advocating that we necessarily encourage the "average soccer mom" to get up in the air, but it would be nice if someone of average income could afford to buy a new or relatively new aircraft. Say, someone with a household income of $100K. Most people at that income level aren't buying a C172, SR22, PA28, M20. Dropping 4-years' gross income doesn't happen for anything short of a house for most people, and it gets cramped trying to live in a C172.

indeed. but to refine that point, consider even 100k household is not average, as the median is shy of 60. IOW, so called rich country filled with nothing but broke @ss people, especially after housing costs are normalized for. thats the problem, but the argument quickly turns political so ill digress.

 

[SoonerAviator]

indeed. but to refine that point, consider even 100k household is not average, as the median is shy of 60. IOW, so called rich country filled with nothing but broke @ss people, especially after housing costs are normalized for. thats the problem, but the argument quickly turns political so ill digress.

Oh I agree. I used $100K as a mark that many folks might consider slightly above average in many areas of the country, but still isn’t anywhere near what would be needed to purchase an simple 4-place piston aircraft made in the past two decades. It just illustrates the how unaffordable much of GA flying truly is unless you resolve to buy a 40yr old aircraft or rent.

 

[Timbeck2]

Do you really want to see the average/below average person up in the sky flying in the same airspace as you?

Um, I see this every time I fly. The more I fly, the more I equate it to driving. There are good ones with skills in the pattern and then there are the cowboys who just do what the hell they want, when they want. Then, there are the student pilots with instructors who aren't quick to correct them both of piloting and communicating. Not that I'm the world's greatest pilot, but I seriously doubt that I've ever said or done anything that someone else said, "WTF is up with that guy?"

 

[Andrew M House]

I’m not sure that building a plane the average man can afford is the answer. Do you really want to see the average/below average person up in the sky flying in the same airspace as you? The fact that flying is expensive tends to weed out the ones that are not really serious about flying and leaves the air to those that are dedicated and willing to put forth the effort to become safe, knowledgeable pilots.

On a similar note, I always thought the dream of putting a flying car in everyone’s garage was ridiculous. Can you imagine the average soccer mom making many trips a day to run her kids around in a personal aircraft in any weather, in any mental situation? Or the guy strapping in after having a few drinks at the local bar? Or the thousands of airborne vehicles during rush hour? It ain’t never gonna happen.

So there is an upside to having less pilots in the air...less crowded skies, shorter lineups, safer pilots, less chance of mid-airs etc. Remember when ultralights were popular the carnage and bad press that resulted? Yup, flying was made affordable to the general public and the result was predictable. There’s even a video on YouTube where a guy was given ground instruction by his buddies on how to fly an ultralight and then into the wild blue he goes. He actually was able to takeoff and ultimately land, but was the most stressful thing I’ve ever watched on YouTube.

I’m not saying that I don’t wish flying was somewhat cheaper, I’m just saying that it is what it is and those that want to fly will find a way to come up with the money to make it happen. Flying has always been exclusive and while the initiation cost is high, those that engage in flying find it rewarding and like no other pursuit in life.

The fact of the mater is that we will see aviation as a whole tank if we don't get more people flying, look up commercial pilot shortages, cost of avgas, the pending ban on TEL. I'm simply saying that the industry as a whole is suffering because of lack of innovation and a good place to start is the cost of flight.
With more minds tackleing the problems and more taxes going into the system we won't end up with a system that no one wants. Look closely at the direction of talks about airspace structure, and propsed regulations on pilots, sure progress has been made with medicals for private pilots, but when I hear talk about taxing individual flights that use controllers, etc. We are at a precepisce where we will either surrender the skies to jets and commercial traffic and drones or we will find a better path. Cutting the cost in half for flight will still be expensive enough to drive away the real screwballs but allow access for most americans that aren't. I'm not looking to change the way pilots become certified and the training requirements. It's still require training that is required now.

I really encourage you to look at the numbers before you dismiss less expensive flight as a bad thing for aviation. The AOPA publishes the state of aviation annual report the information in it about pilot decline is shocking. The GAMA publishes annual reports about the industry again some shocking numbers. The EAA, AOPA, GAMA, even the FAA is concerned about the decline of pilots in America. If high cost of flight is a good thing for aviation why do only 26% pilots own planes? Why is the average annual flight hours by pilots only 50 per year? Why is one of the number one reasons for people leaving aviation or quicting flight school expense?

 

[Andrew M House]

Um, I see this every time I fly. The more I fly, the more I equate it to driving. There are good ones with skills in the pattern and then there are the cowboys who just do what the hell they want, when they want. Then, there are the student pilots with instructors who aren't quick to correct them both of piloting and communicating. Not that I'm the world's greatest pilot, but I seriously doubt that I've ever said or done anything that someone else said, "WTF is up with that guy?"

Amen, I've seen the good bad and ugly but I think things would be better if we had a loy more people involved.

 

[Andrew M House]

Becoming a private pilot isn't that expensive, just look on any car forum at the dollars people flush. The first owner of my car spent a PPL on just depreciation of the options over his 3 year ownership.

Yes it isn't that expensive when you compare to car forums, but when you are looking at it as a secondary skill that can't be used for daily life it is exceptionally expensive, and yes most hobbies are expensive and most people have more than one. If you are a pilot unless you are wealthy it will be your only hobby because of the cost associated with it.

 

[Timbeck2]

Amen, I've seen the good bad and ugly but I think things would be better if we had a loy more people involved.

Yes, it would certainly be nice if I went to the airport and more than two hangar doors were open. The guy next to me just sold his airplane so I'm wondering who I'm going to get for a hangar neighbor.

 

[Andrew M House]

If acquisition is the cheapest part of airplane ownership, I'm not sure that driving down manufacturing costs will move the needle. If you could give away new SR22s for free, would people who are not already pilots care?

Cost of ownership isn't the only thing. There are many other barriers to entry, the cost of fuel, insurance, etc. It is however a place to start and it effects more than just ownership it effects rental rates, cost of cetification, cost of insurance, the cost of financing, etc. I've spoken with many people who are non pilots and the common thread is only rich people fly privately for personal enjoyment or business. There is a real perception issue in the cost of flight arena. I've seen article after article about affordable flight, I've seen covers of periodicals for years touting the latest plane that might actually bring costs down the problem is the model for making planes hasn't changed in 50 years. Now if you can tell me that the pinnical of aviation has come and gone then we might as well just quit now. I, however, have seen enourmous advances in technology since we were pumping out more than 14000 planes a year in the 70's. I think it is high time we need some real disruptive innovation in this market. Sure I could follow the lead of other light sport manufcturers and produce a plane and sell it for $150k and make 10-15 maybe 30 planes a year and do well for myself, making planes the way they have been made for 100 years, or I can look at how can I do it differently maintain the safety but reduce the cost and not be a greedy bastard, just make a reasonable profit and pass along the savings to the customer. I would rather make 25% off of 1000 planes than 100% off of 10. Now tell me if you saw a new plane ready to fly with reasonably modern avionics, can carry two normal Americans, and reasonable fuel for $58,000.00 do you really think the general population would not get interested in flight. All we see on the cover of aviation periodicals and online are the latest $500k to $1m wonder planes and you wonder why average Joe or Jill doesn't go to the local airport to find out about getting their liscense. We really need to step back and look at how the industry as a whole presents its self, if people can't see a way in they they won't participate.

To the point of giving away the new SR22 for free I think you would see thousands if not 10's of thousands enter flight becuase now rentals would be $30-50 an hour, with reserves, so all up with an instructor you are looking at less than $100 an hour. Most people could afford to get liscenses and fly 100 hours a year, friends would take friends flying and more people would get interested. Yes it would make a huge difference in non pilots interest in personal aviation.

 

[dtuuri]

I think it is high time we need some real disruptive innovation in this market.

Desktop simulators? Drones? Airlines solved the transportation dream of flying like the crow flies, these solve the "I wonder what it would look like from up there" question.

Now tell me if you saw a new plane ready to fly with reasonably modern avionics, can carry two normal Americans, and reasonable fuel for $58,000.00 do you really think the general population would not get interested in flight.

They would not, have not and will not. That would cut into the budget for lattes, $5 apps and steaks at The Outback. Besides, there's already an airplane for every budget, just not shiny brand new ones.

 

[Hank S]

Yep, general aviation is declining. I'm debating joining the decline, can't get decent A&P/IA work around here. But I can get fleeced . . . .

There's still EAB, but I ain't building no airplane. Get a Repairman ticket, sure, but there's still the Condition Inspection requiring an A&P. And no, I don't have 2000 hours available outside my job to get my own; that would be overkill just to take care of one plane, anyway.

Cost, regulation, fees, additional required equipment, TFRs, Approach never granting access to Bravo, A&P scarcity/bumbling/crazy rates. I'm seriously thinking about getting out.

 

[Deelee]

I don't post very often here, but I have been following this thread with great interest.

I am close to checkride time for my private and the second thing on my mind (after passing my checkride) is what to do next... Since I am still a student pilot, I have been renting the flight school's 172 models, but once I pass through to getting my certificate, I am left with some choices.

I live in the DC area and my wife and I are both successful enough in our careers to live comfortably here. We aren't rich, but paying for my flight lessons and aircraft rentals hasn't been a burden. I am starting to look seriously at some of the aircraft for sale online and at some of the postings at my local FBO. Looks like I could possibly get into an older 172 with low-enough hours and decent avionics for a touch under $100k. Some that look pretty good for 80 or 90.

But then there is insurance. And a hanger at the airport closest to my house (HEF) and a maintenance budget. I'm just not sure how all that works in terms of TCO year over year. And how does financing work? Is it like buying a car where you can get a 5 year car loan? Maybe things like this are barriers to people getting more involved with GA.

Again, my first priority is just getting past the checkride. But after that... what? Renting? Trying to find a club? It is all a bit confusing especially to someone new to flying.

 

[GeorgeC]

@Deelee, welcome to PoA, another DMV local... I rented for a while, then joined a club, then I got a 5 year loan for my plane. With a rental or a club, you pay as you go. With ownership, you're paying up front in larger chunks.

Rough numbers for me. Some are predictable: loan payment (500), tiedown (100/mo), insurance (100/mo). Some are not: my first annual was expensive (~5000), as was the one-time cost of ADS-B compliance (~5000). Now that my plane is in shape, the ongoing mx expenses should go down.

People throw around $10k/year as a TCO SWAG, I don't think it's too far off.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

There's still EAB, but I ain't building no airplane. Get a Repairman ticket, sure, but there's still the Condition Inspection requiring an A&P.

The condition inspection can be done by either an A&P OR the holder of the repairman certificate for that particular airframe. If you build it, you don't need an A&P for anything. You would only need an A&P if you buy it from someone else. And even then, you're still able to use any parts you want and you're still able to do any work you want.

 

[SoonerAviator]

@Deelee As far as buying vs flying club, it's a tough one to answer. Economically, it probably makes more sense to join a flying club for most people, especially if you aren't flying 100hrs or more per year. It just helps distribute the fixed costs like hangar rental/upgrades/etc. across several people instead of the burden all on you. Some would rather bear that burden so that they have unencumbered access to the airplane 24/7 and the peace of mind that the aircraft is exactly the way they left it the last time it was flown. It's just personal preference, but I'd imagine there are a ton of decent flying clubs in the DC area which could allow you to fly something more exciting than a 172, or perhaps a club with multiple aircraft types to suit differing needs when they arise.

 

[Hank S]

The condition inspection can be done by either an A&P OR the holder of the repairman certificate for that particular airframe. If you build it, you don't need an A&P for anything. You would only need an A&P if you buy it from someone else. And even then, you're still able to use any parts you want and you're still able to do any work you want.

The A&P part is what's driving me away . . . Doing things without my approval, doing things i specifically said not to do, replacing parts that aren't bad, no communication while working, taking forever (my recent 70 day annual was only 63 days to logbook signoff, but it took him another week to let me know he was done!).

 

[Juliet Hotel]

The A&P part is what's driving me away . . . Doing things without my approval, doing things i specifically said not to do, replacing parts that aren't bad, no communication while working, taking forever (my recent 70 day annual was only 63 days to logbook signoff, but it took him another week to let me know he was done!).

Sounds to me like you need to find yourself a better A&P. Good mechanics do exist. Or you need to build yourself a kit. Build it yourself and you can tell every A&P on the planet to go pound sand if you want to.

 

[zaitcev]

... when for a fraction of that money, they could buy a formula Ford and go racing with SCCA.

LOL no way Jose. I sustained a more grevious injury what I crashed a Formula Ford car than when I crashed my Carlson. Both were wrecked, BTW.

 

[Grum.Man]

The biggest hurdle to bringing people in is the misinformation. The most common reply I get when someone finds out I have an airplane is that you have to be rich to have one. They are shocked when I tell them you could get into an airplane for compact car money.

The part that is true that I always hear about is that it’s expensive to get your license. Compared to a car yes it is and that’s what most people relate it too. The next most common complaint is that it takes a lot of work and you have to be smart to get your license. Again these are people relating to cars, so yes you have to be able to study and treat it like a class in school but anyone can do it.

Airshows only further hurt these misconceptions because non aviation people that visit the main shows get bombarded by the high end iron at show center while the affordable options are off in the far reaches.

 

[N1120A]

The reason is greed in GA. The conglomerates that make the planes refuse to streamline their processes to become more efficient, and the FAA refuses to do anything that would make their precious airlines have to compete for airspace - namely by approving and certifying more easily and cheaply. Why are brand new airplanes still flying around with magnetos? It isn't lawyers.

Getting rid of lawyers?

Well that would be one way, and I agree the tort laws are rediculous in that product liability on a plane is forever when car manufacturers are released after the warrenty expires for the most part.

Yeah, just let them build any old death trap with poor tolerances, and also get rid of a big market for GA planes (us lawyers you want to disparage thanks to insurance industry defamation).

Car makers are no more released from their obligations after a warranty than GA builders are. In fact, car makers don't have special laws limiting their liability to a certain number of years - they still have to pay for defects down the road. Incidentally, when was the last time you got a recall letter for a plane? I've gotten 3 for my Jeep and 2 for my wife's Porsche.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

The reason is greed in GA. The conglomerates that make the planes refuse to streamline their processes to become more efficient, and the FAA refuses to do anything that would make their precious airlines have to compete for airspace - namely by approving and certifying more easily and cheaply.

Classic effects of regulation. It favors large established players in the industry and drives out competition.

 

[IK04]

The cost has gone up a bit since 1976...

In 1978, I paid $5.00 per hour wet for a C-150. $7.50 per hour wet for a C-172.

My CFI was also $5.00 per hour. That's how I was able to afford flying.

As a CFI, I also charged $5.00 per hour for my club's members and $10.00 or $12.50 per hour for my "ramp" charge- anyone else... I felt bad charging that much, since I was getting to fly for free and enjoying the fun of teaching humans to be pilots.

Now that I am done flying for a living, I wouldn't at all mind instructing for free, or at least free lunch. I would still get the enjoyment out of it and it beats sitting on my butt arguing with bitter, grumpy people on an aviation forum.

I agree with Grum.Man that disinformation has ruined GA as well as most anything that costs more than a Starbucks addiction...