GA "needs"

Ed, I think your last point about savings has more to do with it than anything else. The middle class has virtually disappeared in this country. People live in nice homes, but they don't really own them because they're heavily mortgaged, and they're one paycheck away from being threatened with foreclosure.

In my experience the main reason people don't like to fly GA is fear. Several of the women in the MI hiking group I used to lead preferred not to fly at all, or medicated themselves with Xanax every time they flew commercial. Even if they realized intellectually that it's an irrational fear, it still controlled their decisions. The same is true for some of my (mostly male) faculty colleagues here. Prospective pilots won't be drawn from that group, but from the (probably) quite small subset of the population that isn't ruled by fear... AND can afford it. :(
 
I don't think the middle class has disappeared inasmuch as their spending habits have made it seem to disappear. "We need a 5 bedroom starter house." "I can't drive a *used car." "I can't be seen eating bagged cereal." I look at the spending habits and shake my head - and that's a vast vast vast majority of the country. Me? Sure, I can afford a house that's probably 5 times the size I've got now and impress people - but I don't give a crap about showing off my house. Even when I bought it I qualified for one 3 times more expensive, but instead I bought only what I needed (plus just a little bit more) and made triple and quadruple payments and paid it off in 5 years or something like that. Then I had all that money as disposable income. Everyone wants everything now, and they want it new, and they want it to be as good or better than someone they know. And as long as that keeps happening, GA is going to continue to die.
 
After some very brief Google research, it looks like there is precedence of allowing a CFI to provide/charge for services in an Experimental. However, this does not apply to primary training. I haven't been able to track down what exactly the FAA considers to be "primary training". I would imagine endorsements would be allowed under the exception to instruct in an Experimental. However, it's unclear if an instrument rating would be considered primary training.

Two scenarios to consider:

1) How much demand would there be from private pilots for a facility that provided "non-primary"/recurrent training in Experimentals?

2) If it were possible to allow all levels of instruction to be provided in Experimentals, how much impact would that have in both cost of entry and attractiveness?

In both scenarios, the assumption is a fleet with no plane older than 20 years, options for glass or steam gauges, complex and non-complex, tailwheel and trikes. Assumption is also that rental rates would be lower than traditional trainer (about $150 wet for a G1000 C172 and $120 wet for a 6-pack C172). Is this assumption valid due to less requirements for "certified" equipment?
 
hindsight2020 said:
This was addressed and proposed. It was called primary non-commercial category
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hockeyrcks9901 said:
I hadn't heard of this before and is something that I would love to voice my support for, however little that would help.
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First I heard of this too, although I'm new enough around here that it's not surprising I missed it. Anyone know how long ago this was proposed?
 
EdFred said:
I don't think the middle class has disappeared inasmuch as their spending habits have made it seem to disappear. "We need a 5 bedroom starter house." "I can't drive a *used car." "I can't be seen eating bagged cereal." I look at the spending habits and shake my head - and that's a vast vast vast majority of the country. Me? Sure, I can afford a house that's probably 5 times the size I've got now and impress people - but I don't give a crap about showing off my house. Even when I bought it I qualified for one 3 times more expensive, but instead I bought only what I needed (plus just a little bit more) and made triple and quadruple payments and paid it off in 5 years or something like that. Then I had all that money as disposable income. Everyone wants everything now, and they want it new, and they want it to be as good or better than someone they know. And as long as that keeps happening, GA is going to continue to die.
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That only proves the point that people decide to use the discretionary money they have on something other than flying. Which is their choice, even if some think it is a "bad" choice.
 
Everskyward said:
That only proves the point that people decide to use the discretionary money they have on something other than flying. Which is their choice, even if some think it is a "bad" choice.
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I consider discretionary income as that you have left over after you've paid for transportation (because you gotta get to work), housing, food, and clothes. The 'problem' is people overspend on all these these so they don't actually have (at least what I consider) discretionary income.
 
I'm sure the media has a lot to do with why more people don't want to learn how to fly. It seems the Media covers every airplane crash in the United States and very little enjoyment of flight and how cool it really is. If I could change something else it would be to increase the coverage of how cool flying really is and how fortunate we all are to get in a plane and just go as a passenger and a pilot.
 
Everskyward said:
That only proves the point that people decide to use the discretionary money they have on something other than flying. Which is their choice, even if some think it is a "bad" choice.
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You mean spouses. Not trying to be incendiary, but ime females drive much of that narrative. I could go on a tangent about hypergamy in our society, but I won't derail the thread. Bottom line, yes much of these expenditure behaviors are influenced by externalities not related to the absolute cost of the hobby, but by social and marital pressures. That's a dynamic I acknowledge as real, but officially reject and criticize. It's abhorrent to me.

Ultimately, men make their own beds. Marry a hypergamous individual, reap what you sow.
 
thebruce said:
First I heard of this too, although I'm new enough around here that it's not surprising I missed it. Anyone know how long ago this was proposed?
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Here ya go brother. Passed in 2013, signed in 2014, implemented two years LATE by the FAA early this year.

I've given up on that dream. My intent is to run out my arrow and sell it for scraps when the engine grenades and requires bottom overhaul, since at that point the engine expense will exceed the initial insured value. At that point I'll take my residual value and go exAB or go buy another bottom end spam can to rinse and repeat until my mission can downgrade to [2-seater] exAB. That's about the only way I'll keep a foothold on this avocation. No Meridian money in this middle class household I'm afraid.
 
EdFred said:
I consider discretionary income as that you have left over after you've paid for transportation (because you gotta get to work), housing, food, and clothes. The 'problem' is people overspend on all these these so they don't actually have (at least what I consider) discretionary income.
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I don't necessarily see it that way. If you have chosen to buy a bigger, nicer, car or house than you need, then that part is discretionary too.
 
Everskyward said:
LOL. Do you realize I'm female. ;)
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Yes, I was indeed aware of that when I replied. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you could handle my generalized statement to not mean all women, to include those who do live their lives without hypergamy in their hearts.

Everskyward said:
I don't necessarily see it that way. If you have chosen to buy a bigger, nicer, car or house than you need, then that part is discretionary too.
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Agreed. And if a man is punked or financially threatened by his spousal unit into that expenditure as a pre-condition of her company, then as disgusting a dynamic as I consider it, you're absolutely right, in this Country that is still considered a discretion. We lay in the beds of our own making.
 
MetalCloud said:
I think the reason young folks aren't into it: it's a matter of kids looking down at screens, not up in the clouds. Maybe. I don't know.

Cost is definitely a concern, but like others said, people spend money on what's important to them. Yes, $240/hour for a 182T hurts a little, but damn is it worth it. Granted, it's probably cheaper in other parts of the country, but everything is adjusted for cost of living.

But I think we somehow need to promote the passion and the cool factor and all the good things about aviation. Most people just hop on southwest flights or read about GA crashes in the news. I will say... The neighborhood grade school takes kids to the local aviation museum at SQL... So cool!!! I think things like that are crucial.
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It's not that younger folks are looking down at their screens so much as that private aviation is not of their generation.

I was born in 1957, my father was born in 1929. When he got out of the Air Force, he bought a half share of an Ercoupe, which interestingly enough was based at Chicago's Orchard Field, which we now call O'Hare International Airport. At that time, being a pilot was akin to what being an astronaut was when I was a child. Naturally, when I was old enough, I wanted to get involved as well. There were a couple of other guys at my high school who were also planning on getting lessons when they could, but not as many, percentage wise, as would have been in my father's time. Aviation had become more commonplace. Jump forward to today, and a smaller percent of the population is aviation minded.

It's not just flying that has seen this change. When I was a kid, it seemed like all the girls were horse crazy. Girls of my daughters' generation, not so much. Mine have gone for three trail rides in their lifetimes and they aren't clamoring for any more. Both of mine are dancers, but some of their friends are gymnasts, volleyball, soccer, and lacrosse players, and a couple are heavily into rowing. Girls of my sister's generation didn't play soccer or lacrosse at all. Times change, and things go in and out of fashion.

It's always been true that the vast majority of the population will not be interested in learning to fly. The only thing that has changed is that the percent that is not interested in flying has grown slightly larger. There were still something like 16,000 new private tickets earned last year, and just short of 50,000 student certificates as well, most of which went to people under age 30. Yes, I realize that some of these pilots are hoping to fly for a living, but there were 27,000 student pilots and 26,000 private pilots who were in their 30's last year, and I'm pretty sure most of these folks aren't planning to make careers of flying.

If you're really wanting to do something to make GA more popular, rather than trying to interest people who've shown no interest, you might want to figure out why only a third of those who earned their student tickets go on to get their private licenses.
 
Just playing off all the comments that say we need newer planes, and those that comment that this is not a big deal.

My opinion is that it is not necessarily the older planes that are the issue themselves, it is that they feel old. Patched panels, dusty steam gauges with worn knobs, faded and frayed seat covers, etc. I have seen many trainers that feel like an 76' Buick that has been sitting in the sun since purchase. Based on only a couple of conversations with people that decided not the train all that stuff was mentioned. It was not the deciding factor, but they felt strongly enough to mention how the plane looked and felt. The deciding factor both times was stated as the cost. Very small sample size so no real conclusions can be made, but it still seems significant to me. I remember on my discovery flight last year that I was surprised that airplane tech was so far behind the times, but I was not there for the tech as much as for the feeling that dreaming to fly had always given me.

And as a defense of myself: I am learning in an early Archer III with steam gauges that could really use a refresh of exterior and interior. I could care less. I am still in the very early process of looking at planes for sale, and outside Archer just because I am familiar with it, I have been attracted mostly to Stinsons, Vikings, and some other older designs.

GA needs to be able to get the new engine tech and instruments as at least options without 5 year approval processes and massive capital investment.
 
The now generation demands instant gratification. They want it now, and want it given to them.
 
Zeldman said:
The now generation demands instant gratification. They want it now, and want it given to them.
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This may be anecdotally true but it is not fact.

Here are a couple of links to educate yourself:
https://hbr.org/2016/04/what-do-mil...ign=HBR&utm_source=linkedin&utm_medium=social
http://www.yoh.com/blog/declaration-to-a-generation-the-truth-about-millennials
https://www.mapi.net/blog/2016/05/truth-about-millennials
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/...g-truth-about-millennials/Content?oid=5923912

I especially like this quote from the last article:
"Old folks fretting over the younger generation is nothing new, nor is a younger generation making earnest statements about how they are fundamentally different from their parents' and grandparents' generation."

If you can't understand that the world changes and that today's generations are far more connected as a result of growing up in an internet connected world than feel free to be just like parents of Boomers hating Rock and Roll and hippies saying the world is going to end because the younger generation does it differently.
 
Well I started pursuing it when I was about 29 and here's how I got into it.

The only decent job I could get in my field right out of college was an 8 hour drive away from my family and friends, a 6 hour drive from my wife's extended family, and 12 hours from where her parents had just moved to. Commercial air travel wasn't really a great option because of the long drive times from where I lived to the nearest commercial airport. Almost 2 hours by the time we drove to the airport, parked, and got from the parking lot to the terminal. Then the security lines.... then depending on where we were headed add up to 3 more hours do drive a rental car to our final destination. Cost factored in, it really wasn't worth it.

When I was flown up to interview for the job it was on the company's king air and I flew GA for the first time and entered the first FBO I'd ever been in. While waiting I thumbed through what was probably a trade-a-plane circular and was surprised to see there were airplanes to be had in the $20-40k range or so. I couldn't afford that but I thought my dad might be interested so I took it with me to show him. He had flown a Cessna 180 before I was born, I'd never seen it just heard about it. He had just sold the farm and moved to a house right next to an airport. We talked about him maybe getting a new plane and flying us down more of a "what if" than a practical discussion but it was a fun thought.

A few years later my dad had become ill. We had to move him in with us and I had to use most of my vacation time to accomplish that. Holidays and family events usually meant me leaving friday after work, driving until midnight, being up the next morning for the event, then driving back the next day. I was tired all the time, work was getting stressful, home life was getting stressful, and I was just generally an unhappy sleepy person. Sometime around then we'd managed to get my dad's old house sold, all debts covered, and the decision was made to start moving some of my dad's assets into my name, mainly for tax purposes but effectively he was just handing me money. Things I'd never considered being able to afford suddenly were in reach. I started thinking about those cheap airplanes again. Still couldn't afford one but it suddenly looked a little outlandish than it did only a few years back.

The following summer a close friend of my wife's had a destination wedding in Jamaica... which I probably wouldn't have wanted to do but we were asked to be part of it and my wife really wanted it so we ended up going. I hate commercial airports but I forgot how much I liked being on an airplane. Some time after our return I started reading more on both large and little screens that people of my generation and younger are so hated for using and ended up on this board among other places trying to find out what it would take. I finally called the local FBO and the ball started rolling, the training took about 4x longer than I expected/wanted and in the meantime my dad passed away and I ended up taking over the farm my dad had rented out which lead to me quitting and moving back home. I only actually used my plane once to get my wife to her family for the holidays.

So now I fly for fun... but I tell you now without incredible good fortune financially and the dumb luck of having the need and randomly running across the GA solution it never would have happened.
 
hindsight2020 said:
You mean spouses. Not trying to be incendiary, but ime females drive much of that narrative.
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For a male dominated area it can seem that females drive that narrative but in reality what the truth is that when it comes around to discretionary spending on something like GA, you need your family's buy in. It's not a male/female thing: It is simply as a part of a family you cannot just decide how you're going to spend your fun bucks on something that only YOU are interested in. Certainly not the majority of the fun bucks. Only a selfish person would pursue that.

In my case, I wanted to fly from when I was a kid but at the same time knew I didn't want to do it as a career. So it had to go on the pile of "stuff I want to do in the future" until I got to the point where I was able to afford it without compromising the family finances. In my case this was after I turned 40. Sure I would have loved to get into flying sooner than this but it just was not financially feasible for me.
 
Except in the cases where I asked my friends to go flying where it would cost them $0, and their wife said absolutely not. That certainly has nothing to do with discretionary spending.
 
EdFred said:
Except in the cases where I asked my friends to go flying where it would cost them $0, and their wife said absolutely not. That certainly has nothing to do with discretionary spending.
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Well that is nothing to do with flying. If they had asked to go bowling she would have said no too. And in this case they have other issues that are not aviation related.
 
FormerHangie said:
I haven't seen any evidence that supports your statement, and I've seen a good bit that contradicts it.
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It's not the generation, it's the whole country. Finance everything! Everything is based on "how much can I spend a month and get by?" Not, "Oh, if I save for 18 months, I will have no payments." It's not the millenials, it's everyone.

NO payments until 2018!
Only $99 down, $99/month!
etc...

The only time I 'finance' is when I get a 0% for six months or so. I have the money in the bank to pay for it now, but if they are going to let me use it for 6 months at no charge, why not?
 
KFD said:
Well that is nothing to do with flying. If they had asked to go bowling she would have said no too. And in this case they have other issues that are not aviation related.
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No they are fine with it if we do something else - even if it costs them $.
 
EdFred said:
It's not the generation, it's the whole country. Finance everything! Everything is based on "how much can I spend a month and get by?" Not, "Oh, if I save for 18 months, I will have no payments." It's not the millenials, it's everyone.

NO payments until 2018!
Only $99 down, $99/month!
etc...

The only time I 'finance' is when I get a 0% for six months or so. I have the money in the bank to pay for it now, but if they are going to let me use it for 6 months at no charge, why not?
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Maybe the finance everything mentality is a result of the fact that everything costs more than it did back in the day, even after adjusting for inflation while real household income has stagnated since the 1970s.... again, adjusted for inflation.

I mean, I guess everyone COULD just not have the same stuff our older generation had... but the older generation are the ones who set the standard of what everyone should strive for... then criticize everyone for trying to maintain that ideal without the same opportunities they had... or criticize everyone for NOT doing better. ;)
 
KFD said:
Seriously, if that happened to me I'd say "well I'm going to spend the afternoon doing something fun. Hookers and blow or flying... What do you think I should do?"
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:D:D:D:D
 
ircphoenix said:
Maybe the finance everything mentality is a result of the fact that everything costs more than it did back in the day, even after adjusting for inflation while real household income has stagnated since the 1970s.... again, adjusted for inflation.

I mean, I guess everyone COULD just not have the same stuff our older generation had... but the older generation are the ones who set the standard of what everyone should strive for... then criticize everyone for trying to maintain that ideal without the same opportunities they had... or criticize everyone for NOT doing better. ;)
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There's a solution to all of this but it's pretty political and have the population will throw a **** fit without actually listening to what is being said.

But a start would be to decrease the demand for things by not being such materialistic bastards and watch the prices drop. You know what else our parents (or at least mine) didn't have every month? $100 cell phone bills, $150 cable/internet bills. Hey, I just found you an extra $3k a year right there. Let's see, WiFi refrigerators when a standard one will suffice - there's a couple grand. The "I can't live in an 75,000 house even though it's my very first one, so I will buy a $225,000 house" (adjusted for where one lives those numbers vary) mentality.

Quit blaming everyone else and the 'stagnated economy based on ******** the libs feed you excuses'. If the income:COL ratio is **** where you are - move! "But, I like it here!" Then quit complaining and passing blame when you have the opportunity to live somewhere that isn't in the crap tank.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't necessarily see it that way. If you have chosen to buy a bigger, nicer, car or house than you need, then that part is discretionary too.
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By that definition everything other than a "Van down by the river" is "discretionary".

Needs vs wants is way out of whack in our society, but what you need is very very little compared to even a modern "starter" home with a two car garage, four bathrooms, granite countertops, and a theatre in the basement.
 
denverpilot said:
By that definition everything other than a "Van down by the river" is "discretionary".
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Not really, if you are reasonable about it instead of thinking in absolute terms. Yes, you can live in a tent and walk everywhere, but that's not what I was talking about.

denverpilot said:
Needs vs wants is way out of whack in our society, but what you need is very very little compared to even a modern "starter" home with a two car garage, four bathrooms, granite countertops, and a theatre in the basement.
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True. I have much more house than I "need". But I can also afford it.
 
EdFred said:
There's a solution to all of this but it's pretty political and have the population will throw a **** fit without actually listening to what is being said.

But a start would be to decrease the demand for things by not being such materialistic bastards and watch the prices drop. You know what else our parents (or at least mine) didn't have every month? $100 cell phone bills, $150 cable/internet bills. Hey, I just found you an extra $3k a year right there. Let's see, WiFi refrigerators when a standard one will suffice - there's a couple grand. The "I can't live in an 75,000 house even though it's my very first one, so I will buy a $225,000 house" (adjusted for where one lives those numbers vary) mentality.

Quit blaming everyone else and the 'stagnated economy based on ******** the libs feed you excuses'. If the income:COL ratio is **** where you are - move! "But, I like it here!" Then quit complaining and passing blame when you have the opportunity to live somewhere that isn't in the crap tank.
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Well said.
 
But it's even easier to make excuses. I live in supposedly one of the worst states economy wise, yet I'm not the one clinging to statistics that help reinforce excuses.
 
I have Z E R O debt, house, cars, planes, all free and clear.

If you can't buy it outright (if needed) you don't need it.

Go watch "The Big Short" it's on net flix.
 
I do not know one person under 40 with a 5 bedroom house or a wifi refrigerator. Most of the very few I know of who spend money on luxuries like that are highly paid professionals in their 50s.

Also how the heck is someone supposed to afford a $300,000 airplane if a $225,000 house is extravagant?
 
James331 said:
I have Z E R O debt, house, cars, planes, all free and clear.

If you can't buy it outright (if needed) you don't need it.

Go watch "The Big Short" it's on net flix.
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Me too. Would not be flying otherwise.
 
cowman said:
I do not know one person under 40 with a 5 bedroom house or a wifi refrigerator. Most of the very few I know of who spend money on luxuries like that are highly paid professionals in their 50s.

Also how the heck is someone supposed to afford a $300,000 airplane if a $225,000 house is extravagant?
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That 225 number is going to vary based on where you live. Here its way overkill for a starter house. You can find starters all day long under 100 around here. I also know the 5 bedroom under 40 crowd and they are struggling, but they got their show-off house. I paid 45 for my plane, and put some more into it. But I've had it 7 years and am nowhere near 300 into it when you add up every penny spent on flying, maintaining, insuring, and hangaring it.

And your post is aperfect example. No one said go buy a 300 airplane, but that's the number you threw out as a starting point.
 
OkieFlyer said:
I guess I was just thinking that it's primarily the middle class Joe that has been nudged out of GA over the years.
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Everskyward said:
I'm not sure if that is true or just a perception. It also depends on who you are referring to as the "average Joe".
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When I was in high school (1970's) our shop teacher owned two airplanes. A teacher today couldn't afford one, much less two.
 
timwinters said:
When I was in high school (1970's) our shop teacher owned two airplanes. A teacher today couldn't afford one, much less two.
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Funny you mention that, Tim. I had just been thinking about the old fella and friend of mine that I bought my plane from. He has owned 3 different planes and a sailplane in his 30+ years of flying, on a teacher/coach salary for most of that time. Several of the silver haired pilots I know, had modest paying jobs when they got into aviation, mail carrier, mechanic, farmer, truck driver, teacher/coach, soldier, etc. I can't say that those types made up a significant portion of yesterday's pilots/airplane owners, but it seems plausible to think there were more then than there are now.
 
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