G5 mount location...

[arkvet]

My Saratoga with standard vacuum 6 pack went into the shop today to have the G5 installed. I have a century 41 AP that uses the existing vacuum AI as it's position source. It's in good working order. The G5 was simply to give a solid backup for IFR flight.

However, rather than install the G5 in the backup location I wanted to move my vacuum AI down to the backup role (just to left of where TC is in the standard 6 pack). Then simply install the G5 in the primary AI hole. No changes in what drives the AP, just a jockeying of position in the scan.

Just got an email from the shop that said they needed to leave the vacuum AI in it's current position and recommended putting the G5 where the TC currently resides and move the TC to the left.

I don't understand why it would be an issue to move the vacuum AI to the backup role and not disrupt it's role for the AP.

Anyone out there know if the shop is correct or if they're getting bad information?

Who / where could I find an answer to this question. I'd really rather have that G5 front and center rather than in the TC spot... but I'm a relatively new IFR guy so maybe its not that big of a deal.

Would Garmin be able to answer this question and if so how do I contact the right place?

 

[bradg33]

I'm guessing it's a plumbing/wiring issues; they don't want to re-build the harness or vacuum lines to the current AI to permit moving it. The other issue may be a physical fit problem. I'm not familiar with the back of the panel on a PA32, but it's possible there is something that would interfere with the AI being placed where you want it (cross member, support, vent lines, etc.).

 

[bnt83]

Then call and ask

 

[arkvet]

thanks so much! That explains it pretty clearly. I don't believe my vacuum AI is a "Flight Director" therefor could be moved to replace the TC and TC moved out of the 6 pack. I need to verify it's not a Flight Director but it physically looks like it is not.

 

[bnt83]

thanks so much! That explains it pretty clearly. I don't believe my vacuum AI is a "Flight Director" therefor could be moved to replace the TC and TC moved out of the 6 pack. I need to verify it's not a Flight Director but it physically looks like it is not.

It looks like Century 41 could be either way, with or without a flight director. possibly even swap the FD for the standard one without the FD.

 

[James331]

Without a doubt, I'd mount the G5 as primary and relocate the vac one anywhere it's not cluttering your panel, up to and including ebay.

You need to keep the turn coordinator

And you'd know if you had a flight director.

 

[arkvet]

Here's a picture of my panel (a little dated pic). The old inop stormscope is gone and a JPI 830 resides there now. My vacuum AI does not look like a Flight Director AI but if looks don't tell please someone correct me. Should be able to move it to TC spot and move TC over left to where that inop RC allen electric AI is shown.

I just really want that G5 in the primary AI spot even if it adds a little labor to move the vacuum AI.

James, if I put my vacuum AI on ebay my Century 41 AP would not work too well. Plan to keep the existing TC just move it left out of 6 pack.

 

[bnt83]

Call and find out what the deal is and let us know.

 

[James331]

Here's a picture of my panel (a little dated pic). The old inop stormscope is gone and a JPI 830 resides there now. My vacuum AI does not look like a Flight Director AI but if looks don't tell please someone correct me. Should be able to move it to TC spot and move TC over left to where that inop RC allen electric AI is shown.

I just really want that G5 in the primary AI spot even if it adds a little labor to move the vacuum AI.

James, if I put my vacuum AI on ebay my Century 41 AP would not work too well. Plan to keep the existing TC just move it left out of 6 pack.

View attachment 51282

Roger that.

Maybe ditch the other AI you already have, out the AP needed AI in the old backup AIs place (which doesn't look to be a flight director one, and install the G5 primary.

This would keep a standard six pack layout, which I think would be ideal to keep, unless you have a good reason to go non standard.


I can not think of a single reason to do what your avoinics shop is talking about, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't know the G5 can be primary. I'd also shop around for another avionics shop, as having that crappy vac instrument in the primary hole vs a FAR superior digital AI with a flight director and airspeed/altitude/ball (even though only "reference only") just shows a lack of understanding of what a instrument pilot would want in the soup.

 

[James331]

Flight director

I don't see any command bars on yours

 

[bnt83]

WAG, the autopilot gyro won't fit in the proposed location due to inference behind the panel. If that's it, I'd put it somewhere else. Might turn into musical chairs...

 

[arkvet]

Roger that.

Maybe ditch the other AI you already have, out the AP needed AI in the old backup AIs place (which doesn't look to be a flight director one, and install the G5 primary.

That's the plan with one small exception. According to the fine print that Brian was so awesome to post it looks like the vacuum AI can NOT be moved completely out of the 6 pack if it runs the AP (and mine does). Since mine is not a flight director it can be moved to the TC hole and the TC either moved left as backup or just removed all together.

I've sent a reply to the shop and will post a follow up... and of course finish with pics of the this "poor man's glass panel" when all finished

An Aspen would have been really nice but I have to remind myself occasionally that I'm not a real doctor.

 

[arkvet]

WAG, the autopilot gyro won't fit in the proposed location due to inference behind the panel.

That's a possibility but my PA32 has generous room, especially if only moving the AI to where the TC resides. The inop RC Allen electric backup AI that is in the pic was pulled many months ago and it's literally sitting on the desk next to where I'm typing. It's full size at least 6+ inches depth. Now moving the "plumbing" would be another thing to look at. Of course moving it 1 down and 1 over isn't too far of a move by staying within the 6 pack.

 

[James331]

That's the plan with one small exception. According to the fine print that Brian was so awesome to post it looks like the vacuum AI can NOT be moved completely out of the 6 pack if it runs the AP (and mine does). Since mine is not a flight director it can be moved to the TC hole and the TC either moved left as backup or just removed all together.

I've sent a reply to the shop and will post a follow up... and of course finish with pics of the this "poor man's glass panel" when all finished

An Aspen would have been really nice but I have to remind myself occasionally that I'm not a real doctor.

I noticed that shortly after I hit submit, and edited my last post

Yeah, move the required for autopilot vac AI to the standby position, G5 to primary, if the vac AI won't fit just put it copilot side or something, not having that G5 primary position really makes it a waste, if your shop can't carry they out, find another shop


Side note, personally I prefer my AI and my DG/HSI to be two separate boxes, just the belt and suspenders instrument guy in me

 

[arkvet]

I'm holding out hope that the shop simply overlooked the fact that my AI was not a Flight Director. If it was then their proposal of putting the G5 in the TC location would have been the best, although not ideal, option for me.

I like the shop a lot. They do good work and I know quite a few folks that have used them for major panel OH's. Overall very good reputation.

 

[James331]

Even if it had a FD, which the G5 also has, having a vac instrument as your primary AI vs a solid state AI like the G5, it's a bad call, and makes me wonder if the shop just installs the stuff or knows how people in the air use it.

 

[arkvet]

If the vacuum AI had a FD (which is doesn't) the shop couldn't move it per the STC. It would have to stay in primary location.

I got a quick reply from the shop. G5 going in primary AI position and vacuum AI going to TC position. TC moving left, although legally I could just remove it altogether having two AI's.

Thanks all for the help. The guidance from here helped me quickly get my shop on the right track.

 

[Ryan F.]

Shop might be a little unmotivated to do the work to move the existing vacuum ADI. However, barring fit issues I would certainly insist the G5 be placed top and center. It is a mini-PFD and it would be best utilized (and enjoyed) top and center in the six-pack. No better place for it to go.

Unless you need to TC for your AP, recommend ditching that and moving you vacuum ADI bottom left.

 

[arkvet]

Shop might be a little unmotivated to do the work to move the existing vacuum ADI. However, barring fit issues I would certainly insist the G5 be placed top and center. It is a mini-PFD and it would be best utilized (and enjoyed) top and center in the six-pack. No better place for it to go.

Unless you need to TC for your AP, recommend ditching that and moving you vacuum ADI bottom left.

I don't need the TC for the AP and honestly thought about ditching it... Anyone have a reason I should leave it in the panel or with the A/H and the G5 would I be better off to ditch it? In the event of multiple instrument failures I figured an extra "wings level" indicator would never hurt. I've already got it and as of right now that position would otherwise be empty. Weight is not much of a consideration to me either.

 

[Ryan F.]

I don't need the TC for the AP and honestly thought about ditching it... Anyone have a reason I should leave it in the panel or with the A/H and the G5 would I be better off to ditch it? In the event of multiple instrument failures I figured an extra "wings level" indicator would never hurt. I've already got it and as of right now that position would otherwise be empty. Weight is not much of a consideration to me either.

Ditch it. I had the same consideration, needed my existing ADI for my Altimatic III (a Century variant) so the G5 went top and center, and the legacy ADI headed to the bottom left.

The G5 has a rate of turn indicator built into it. Not quite the same thing as a TC of course, but it's the same information. Has an inclinometer too. There's no need for a turn coordinator back up anymore, it's far better to simply have two full attitude gyros.

Incidentally I've had two vacuum ADIs for a very long time in my airplane. Many moons ago, back when electric (not electronic!) ADIs were a few grand with a MTBF of about 100 hours, I wanted a backup to my single vacuum ADI. It didn't need to be electric because I had two vacuum pumps -- it's a twin. And those electric jobs were expensive and you had to fix them all the time. So I got field approval to install two vacuum ADIs. It's been a nice setup. My primary did roll over and die one day, although in VFR conditions fortunately. The second vacuum ADI is on the right side of the panel. When the time came to install the G5 I figured -- why mess with a good thing? So I have the G5 and two vacuum powered ADIs, which are powered by two vacuum pumps. If I ever lose all attitude indications in that airplane God is just choosing that day to call me home...

 

[arkvet]

Update:

Just got word from the shop that moving the existing vacuum A/H to the TC slot is going to be no easy task. Here is the message.

The A/H will not easily fit in the T/C slot. There's breakplugs, cabling, etc. that henders the installation of the A/H in that slot. I don't think it's a sound decision to start extending cables, etc. to accomplish the install. I like to accommodate the desires of the customer; however, I suggest we install the G-5 in the T/C slot. Don't think it's appropriate to present you a labor invoice for $3000.00 estimated without your approval. Please advise.

Now I'm somewhat torn. I trust the shop. I was budgeting / planning for $3,000 for the final bill (including the G5). Although I'd prefer the G5 top center if I put it in the T/C slot it's still within the primary 6 pack scan. I am having a tough time justifying that much extra labor to get it up there. As a guy still in IFR training I would think it would be easy to adjust my scan to accommodate it in the T/C slot.

I have no intention of stopping the install and picking up the plane. They have always treated me fairly and they do good work. I'm sure the obstacles in moving the existing instruments are legit.

Suggestions?

 

[bnt83]

Sometimes things just aren't easy to do. They must really not want to do it with adding that much labor.

 

[BGF_Yankee]

I would go see first hand what they are telling you. Typically, if wiring is not long enough (and someone can correct me please), you don't just splice in a bunch of extensions. The entire bundle for the autopilot might require a re-wire (?). I dunno man...I mean, if that's really where you want it, that's what I would tell them. Perhaps there is something they are seeing that they just aren't explaining very well. I know when I just did the wiring for my CGR-30P in the Lance that it was a bird's nest back there with all the wiring, plumbing, chains, etc. Can't really think of a reason that it wouldn't fit physically where you are proposing it, unless the panel itself had to be cut up a little bit.

 

[bnt83]

I wouldn't splice but an extension harness seems reasonable. That means buying appropriate connectors to mate with the existing ones to make an extension cord.

Some older equipment use connectors that have long been out of production, so that could be a hurdle.

 

[Ryan F.]

Update:

Just got word from the shop that moving the existing vacuum A/H to the TC slot is going to be no easy task. Here is the message.

(SNIPPED)

I have no intention of stopping the install and picking up the plane. They have always treated me fairly and they do good work. I'm sure the obstacles in moving the existing instruments are legit.

Suggestions?

Since I'm not familiar with your specific aircraft and equipment I can't definitively counter what your shop is telling you, but I'm skeptical. Is there another slot into which your legacy ADI can be moved?

Your options at this point seem to be a) get another opinion, b) proceed as the shop suggests, or c) accept an outrageous service charge for moving the ADI. Most shops charge around $100/hr. for labor so on the high side that's 30 hours to move your pre-existing ADI and install the G5? ... That seems very high to me.

It's your airplane and you'll have to decide what will make you satisfied. You are new to instrument flying now but after some time, I think there's a chance you'll find a lower left placement to be annoying. This instrument is, for all intents and purposes, a PFD. It's designed to be the centerpiece of your scan. I wouldn't be satisfied with anything less than placing it at 12 o'clock.

If it were me I'd make a few calls and get another opinion.

 

[bradg33]

IMHO, it's a waste of money to put in a G5 if it's not going in the primary slot. If your panel permits it, why not just move the vacuum AI to the other side of the panel (co-pilot)? You only need it there to drive the autopilot, it's not required by the G5 STC. Keep the regular turn coordinator where it is and treat the vacuum AI like a co-pilot instrument. There should only be a small harness (3, 4 or 5 wires) connecting the AI to the autopilot "brain." I can't imagine the labor to re-build that particular portion of the harness would be more than a couple hundred dollars. If you're already in for $3k, I'd rather spend $3500 or 4000 to get the G5 where I want it, otherwise I'd end up feeling like I wasted $3k to put it in a non-primary spot.

 

[arkvet]

thanks all.

This is turning into much more of a headache than I anticipated. The original quote was for G5 ($2175) plus labor and misc materials = $3,000. So originally $825 for labor (minus materials which can't be much?)

New quote is labor only @ $3,000... Therefor an extra $2,175 to move my vacuum A/H to TC slot.

I'm inclined to pay for the G5 and go pick the plane up. I won't yet say I don't trust what I'm hearing I just can't figure out how it could cost $2175 to move the A/H 4 inches.

Brad, per to STC since my vacuum A/H is necessary for the AP it can ONLY be mounted in two possible locations. Primary A/H site (where it currently resides) or it can be moved to replace the T/C. This is per the Garmin documentation in the 3rd post.

I am in northeast Arkansas. Any recommendations of shops within reasonable distance where I could call and discuss my issue and see just how legitimate the hurdles likely are.

Heck, I guess one option is to have them install it in the T/C location and then sometime later find a shop that will swap the two instruments. I'm assuming most of the G5 labor is the wiring / 530W integration anyway.

 

[bradg33]

thanks all.

This is turning into much more of a headache than I anticipated. The original quote was for G5 ($2175) plus labor and misc materials = $3,000. So originally $825 for labor (minus materials which can't be much?)

New quote is labor only @ $3,000... Therefor an extra $2,175 to move my vacuum A/H to TC slot.

I'm inclined to pay for the G5 and go pick the plane up. I won't yet say I don't trust what I'm hearing I just can't figure out how it could cost $2175 to move the A/H 4 inches.

Brad, per to STC since my vacuum A/H is necessary for the AP it can ONLY be mounted in two possible locations. Primary A/H site (where it currently resides) or it can be moved to replace the T/C. This is per the Garmin documentation in the 3rd post.

I am in northeast Arkansas. Any recommendations of shops within reasonable distance where I could call and discuss my issue and see just how legitimate the hurdles likely are.

Heck, I guess one option is to have them install it in the T/C location and then sometime later find a shop that will swap the two instruments. I'm assuming most of the G5 labor is the wiring / 530W integration anyway.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the Garmin documents. It says the AI "can" be moved the T/C spot, it doesn't say it "must" be moved there. That situation presumes you are removing the T/C, in which case I'd agree that it has to be moved there. If you keep the TC, I see no reason you cannot move the AI elsewhere. Might be worth a direct discussion with Garmin's Field Service Team (talk to Trek Lawler) and perhaps a more accommodating shop.

 

[Ryan F.]

This is turning into much more of a headache than I anticipated. The original quote was for G5 ($2175) plus labor and misc materials = $3,000. So originally $825 for labor (minus materials which can't be much?)

New quote is labor only @ $3,000... Therefor an extra $2,175 to move my vacuum A/H to TC slot.

Yeah, that just doesn't add up. Sorry, but this new charge sounds like a "we don't want to do this work and we will create a fee which is such a nuisance the customer will accept our terms."

Some unsolicited advice. I have owned my aircraft for 16 years and have dealt with more shops than I can remember. I have had good relationships with most but I never forget it's a business relationship and that I am the customer. It's your right to be demanding. They need to accommodate you, not the other way around. Being a nice guy doesn't really pay as a customer. That doesn't mean you can be rude and unnecessarily pushy. But you can and should politely and firmly insist on what you want within the bounds of legality and practicality.

I strongly recommend against installing it in the T/C position for now as that is now what you want and the installation cost of doing it twice is simply impractical, not to mention you'll need yet another pitot-static check afterward. Just get this done, and done right. I'd make one final polite but assertive call to the shop asking them to justify their new quote and to show you, in person, the installation challenges they face. If they stand their ground I'd pick the G5 up in its box, and fly the plane to a new shop which provides a more reasonable quote. Again, I don't know your specific equipment but I'm just having a very hard time understanding why this is so challenging for your shop. I just don't buy it.

 

[Ryan F.]

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of the Garmin documents. It says the AI "can" be moved the T/C spot, it doesn't say it "must" be moved there. That situation presumes you are removing the T/C, in which case I'd agree that it has to be moved there. If you keep the TC, I see no reason you cannot move the AI elsewhere. Might be worth a direct discussion with Garmin's Field Service Team (talk to Trek Lawler) and perhaps a more accommodating shop.

I've been on the fence with that, too. I was one of the first to get the STC'd G5 and my first installation request was to move my legacy ADI (which does drive my AP) to the right side of the airplane. The shop agreed to do that. Then after some time passed while I was waiting for the unit to ship I changed my mind and decided to get rid of my TC (bottom left of stack) and keep both of my vacuum ADIs. So even though I didn't go with that configuration the shop was agreeable to it initially.

 

[arkvet]

Again, thanks to everyone!!!

I'm constructing a reply to the shop regarding moving the A/H to the empty slot (vacated by the old electric A/H). The old RC Allen (in the picture I posted) is over 7" deep so there's no way the vacuum A/H should have any trouble moving to that spot (THANKS Brad for that clarification!)

As for the "brain" of my AP... well the annunciator and control panel for the Century 41 AP are both closer to the slot it would be moved to... so distance wise it would be closer (if that's where the brain is located?)...

I am tossing out the idea (in my next reply) of buying the G5 and taking it home in the box... if a reasonable install agreement can't be met. And I'll still maintain the difficultly in moving it to the T/C slot may be completely legit. Every panel is different and issues may be present.

 

[arkvet]

Another Update:

Had a good conversation with the shop owner over lunch. I think he was as frustrated as I am with the difficulty of moving the vacuum A/H to the T/C slot. He said the biggest issue was that one of the heater vents/hoses is in a very tight and bad place and would have to be completely re-built / re-routed. When I inquired about the empty slot vacated by the electric A/H he said it wouldn't fit there because the vacuum A/H has an additional 3 or 4 inches of needed length for the rigid pitot attachment that the far left slot does not have.

In the end I am going to go ahead and have the G5 installed in the T/C slot. His advice was that the majority (say 6 of 8 hours)of the labor to install the G5 was going to occur regardless of which slot we stuck it into and that moving it later on would not overlap much of the labor for the initial install.

Although it's not exactly what I wanted I am going to try to look at these positive points:

1- I get the G5 into my scan now and that immediately makes me happier as I'm currently in IFR training and don't have a panel mounted backup A/H otherwise... so actual IMC is something I've stayed away from for now.

2- If the heater ducts / hoses are the biggest obstacle with the changes then maybe that is an issue I can tackle myself with the help of my IA / A/P.

3- I maintain a good relationship with the shop that I do trust. Now granted when I get the plane back I'm going to take a hard look at backside of the panel and probably get some 2nd opinions and that opinion could change...

I appreciate all the advice... I know some of you may disagree with the final decision here but at least I was able to make it being very well informed by you all!

Thanks again!

 

[thomasdr72]

Great move! I'll tell you from personal experience, that rarely does the install go as smoothly as it should. There are always variables that are hard to see until you are "in the middle of it."

For example, when we picked up our Skyhawk 8 years ago, it had pretty much the original panel layout:

Shortly thereafter, I added an intercom, retired an ancient old GPS. Added my Airgizmos panel dock, and put in a panel mounted intercom.

Replaced the original boat anchor gyros with more modern ones, installed the autopilot, and rearranged the layout a bit. Although with the help of some extra Cessna hoses I was able to "make it work" it definitely wasn't ideal.

I'm fairly certain that the way the hoses were routed led to the early demise of many of the rubber shock mounts that I found broken every year. Eventually, the old transponder died and I rearranged the panel again to facilitate a newer unit. During this last 7 month of refurb, I decided that it was finally time to "make it right" so I pulled the entire floating panel out and re-manufactured the hoses.

I also switched to one of the small 1" suction gauges that was actually in the instrument scan, instead of on the other side of the cabin where it was.

The first attempt of fitting everything behind the panel didn't go according to plan, and it probably took 6 or 8 test fits before everything fit like I wanted it to, adjusting every single time...

Eventually, the final config looked something like this: (After probably 8 hours of fiddling with the bits!)

All of this to install a $140 gauge, and replace $50 worth of rubber hose...

Stick with it, you'll eventually get where you want to be!

V/r,

-Dana

You can follow the updates, on my This Old Airplane page:
www.facebook.com/aviationaddict/

 

[Ryan F.]

I appreciate all the advice... I know some of you may disagree with the final decision here but at least I was able to make it being very well informed by you all!

There's only one person who needs to be happy in this deal -- you. Enjoy the G5.