FYI, LAX Mini Route is Closed (2/10/15 to Est. 3/21/15)

[eetrojan]

FYI, in case anybody was thinking about flying the Mini Route like me, the ATIS at Hawthorne (KHHR, 310.675.7945) and Santa Monica (KSMO, 310.450.4620) are saying that the Mini Route is currently closed.

Evidently the Santa Monica VOR went down yesterday. The SMO VOR defines the radial used to fly the Mini Route.

If I'm reading this correctly, the NOTAM says it's estimated to be down until 3/21:

SMO VOR/DME OUT OF SERVICE. 1502101603-1503211603EST

 

[flhrci]

FYI, in case anybody was thinking about flying the Mini Route like me, the ATIS at Hawthorne (KHHR, 310.675.7945) and Santa Monica (KSMO, 310.450.4620) are saying that the Mini Route is currently closed.

Evidently the Santa Monica VOR went down yesterday. The SMO VOR defines the radial used to fly the Mini Route.

If I'm reading this correctly, the NOTAM says it's estimated to be down until 3/21:

SMO VOR/DME OUT OF SERVICE. 1502101603-1503211603EST

That is a long time to be out of service.

David

 

[Henning]

That is a long time to be out of service.

David

Yeah it is, but considering KSMO is going to go away...

 

[Brad Z]

Strange...closed even for aircraft with a GPS that knows where the SMO VOR is?

 

[Henning]

Strange...closed even for aircraft with a GPS that knows where the SMO VOR is?

Yep, because the procedure is defined by the VOR radial. They may issue you an identical GPS based procedure/clearance if requested, but the specified procedure will not be available.

 

[eetrojan]

Yep, because the procedure is defined by the VOR radial. They may issue you an identical GPS based procedure/clearance if requested, but the specified procedure will not be available.

Yeah, the TAC's Mini Route inset even mentions GPS:

• Mini Route Northbound: (GPS routing: VPLSR direct SMO)
• Mini Route Southbound: (GPS routing: SMO direct VPLSR)

But, the ATIS recordings at the two gatekeeper airports simply say "the Mini Route is closed."

 

[StinkBug]

What about the SFRA? That uses the SMO VOR as well.

 

[Shawn]

What about the SFRA? That uses the SMO VOR as well.

SMO Notam FDC 5/1510 LAX AIRSPACE LOS ANGELES VFR SPECIAL FLIGHT RULES AREA NOT AVBL EXCEPT FOR AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH SUITABLE RNAV SYSTEM. SMO VOR/DME OUT OF SERVICE. 1502101600-1503142359

Why they would allow /G to fly the SFRA and not the Mini Route is a bit puzzling. Guess it is just easier for the SMO and HHR towers to not have to argue with pilots on who can use it and who can not!

 

[comanchepilot]

Routing GPS is simple: SMO HERMO essentially.

 

[MAKG1]

Routing GPS is simple: SMO HERMO essentially.

Mini is VPLSR SMO.

 

[Henning]

SMO Notam FDC 5/1510 LAX AIRSPACE LOS ANGELES VFR SPECIAL FLIGHT RULES AREA NOT AVBL EXCEPT FOR AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH SUITABLE RNAV SYSTEM. SMO VOR/DME OUT OF SERVICE. 1502101600-1503142359

Why they would allow /G to fly the SFRA and not the Mini Route is a bit puzzling. Guess it is just easier for the SMO and HHR towers to not have to argue with pilots on who can use it and who can not!

SFRA is VFR, mini route is IFR.

 

[MAKG1]

SFRA is VFR, mini route is IFR.

Then why does the TAC say "VFR only?"

 

[Jeff Oslick]

There is a NOTAM that the SFRA is not available either without "suitable RNAV", due to the SMO VOR outage.

 

[Shawn]

SFRA is VFR, mini route is IFR.

Are you saying normally or just currently during the SMO outage?

The Mini route is a published VFR transition route across the LAX Bravo airspace....normally...as is the Coastal Route, Hollywood Route and Colosseum route. There are 5 published VFR Bravo transitions including the SFRA.

 

[Henning]

Are you saying normally or just currently during the SMO outage?

The Mini route is a published VFR transition route across the LAX Bravo airspace....normally...as is the Coastal Route, Hollywood Route and Colosseum route. There are 5 published VFR Bravo transitions including the SFRA.

I've had this discussion with LAX and SoCal controllers. "How can I be VFR in Class B airspace? I can be VMC, but by nature of my clearance, the rules I follow are IFR." They pretty much concede that yeah, it's not really "VFR" route, but we need to have VMC to use it.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I normally transition the area VFR through the SFRA as described on the TAC. How would one go about this now that the SMO VOR is out (in a plane without GPS).

 

[StinkBug]

Legally you wouldn't.

 

[Henning]

I normally transition the area VFR through the SFRA as described on the TAC. How would one go about this now that the SMO VOR is out (in a plane without GPS).

The SFRA "VFR Corridor" is defined visually as far as I recall, I did it hundreds of times without dailing in a radio.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Legally you wouldn't.

So coming out of Van Nuys and heading to Catalina VFR... just contact SoCal Appch and request flight following and they'll help with a transition through the Class B? How would I get from KVNY to Catalina VFR?

 

[Henning]

So coming out of Van Nuys and heading to Catalina VFR... just contact SoCal Appch and request flight following and they'll help with a transition through the Class B? How would I get from KVNY to Catalina VFR?

Down low offshore, fly around the base of the Bravo.

 

[eetrojan]

Down low offshore, fly around the base of the Bravo.

Well that raises a bunch of questions for me.

Have you done this? Like below? Or 13+ NM offshore, completely outside the surface area?

Is it routinely granted if requested?

Start with SoCal, or start with LAX Tower?

What altitude will LAX tower assign?

Wake turbulence?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The SFRA "VFR Corridor" is defined visually as far as I recall, I did it hundreds of times without dailing in a radio.

Legally, it is defined by the SMO 132 radial. However, there is also a text description that makes it clear the "corridor" is the full width between the 405 and the shoreline. Unfortunately, the NOTAM requires "suitable" RNAV equipment. I'll leave for other to define what is "suitable" area nav for a VFR route.

Most of us who've flown the route more than a couple times can track that radial within a dot just based on visual reference to the ground.

 

[Unbeliever]

"How can I be VFR in Class B airspace?

You're mixing up "VFR" with "Positive Control." You are still bound by all the VFR rules, even in Class B, even though they're a bit looser in B.

VFR in B is not given a clearance limit, is not bound by any of the IFR rules including, but not limited to filing of plans (even abbreviated over-the-air ones), lost comm and reporting requirements, and the like.

--Carlos V.

 

[Henning]

Have you done this? Is it routinely granted if requested? Start with SoCal, or start with LAX Tower? What altitude will LAX tower assign?

Requested? From whom? You fly west on the shoreline, stay below 2000, to Point Dume and then turn for AVX, when you're abeam Palos Verdes the base of the Bravo goes to 5000' IIRC.

You can also just ask for a midfield transition, I never found LAX difficult to work with.

 

[Henning]

Have you done this? Is it routinely granted if requested? Start with SoCal, or start with LAX Tower? What altitude will LAX tower assign?

Requested? From whom? You fly west on the shoreline, stay below 2000, to Point Dume and then turn for AVX, when you're abeam Palos Verdes the base of the Bravo goes to 5000' IIRC.

You can also just ask for a midfield transition, I never found LAX difficult to work with. They were even friendly about me doing CAT II in my Travelair.

 

[StinkBug]

The SFRA "VFR Corridor" is defined visually as far as I recall, I did it hundreds of times without dailing in a radio.

The SFRA VFR Corridor is defined by the SMO 132 radial as indicated on the TAC that you are required to have on board to legally transit. If you know the route (which I do) you may be able to fly that radial without actually dialing in your radio, but legally speaking you cant fly a radial without some sort of navigational instrument, VFR or not. The NOTAM specifically says you need "suitable RNAV equipment" to use it right now. FlyingMonkey doesn't have that, so he cant legally use the corridor.

 

[Unbeliever]

Down low offshore, fly around the base of the Bravo.

I know you usually fly twins, but do you really want to be in a single, at 1500-2000 feet, 12-14 miles off-shore? (that's how far the surface area goes past the shoreline).

--Carlos V.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Well that raises a bunch of questions for me.

Have you done this? Like below? Or 13+ NM offshore, completely outside the surface area?

Is it routinely granted if requested?

Start with SoCal, or start with LAX Tower?

What altitude will LAX tower assign?

Wake turbulence?

The old "shoreline route" doesn't exist any more. There is the "coastal route" but it is much higher than the old shoreline route.

Henning's method only works if you are comfortable flying a relatively low altitude over water that is cold enough to kill you in an hour or two if you are unprotected.

 

[eetrojan]

Requested? From whom? You fly west on the shoreline, stay below 2000, to Point Dume and then turn for AVX, when you're abeam Palos Verdes the base of the Bravo goes to 5000' IIRC.

You can also just ask for a midfield transition, I never found LAX difficult to work with. They were even friendly about me doing CAT II in my Travelair.

When you said "down low offshore," I thought you were talking about a low coastal transition, like you can routinely get from KSAN by flying at 500 feet between La Jolla and Point Loma, even though it's not published, but I guess you're talking about flying way offshore like below.

That's more open water time than I would prefer.

 

[StinkBug]

So coming out of Van Nuys and heading to Catalina VFR... just contact SoCal Appch and request flight following and they'll help with a transition through the Class B? How would I get from KVNY to Catalina VFR?

You'll wanna take a look at the TAC and decide on one of the other VFR routes, then read the instructions on how to follow them and who to call. The Coastal route would probably work best for you since you dont have to climb as high as the Colliseum or Hollywood Park Routes.

I will tell you that simply calling SoCal and asking them for guidance will not work. You have to know what route you wanna take, and it needs to be one of the charted ones unless you wanna fly all the way around. Last time I flew to SMO (a week ago) there was a guy around torrance asking for vectors and they repeatedly told him he needed to look at a chart and pick a published route, and that they only way they could vector him would be WAY out over the water.

 

[eetrojan]

FYI, these are the NOTAMS:

LAX 02/040 LAX AIRSPACE SEE FDC 5/1431 LAX VFR MINI ROUTE NOT AVBL 1502101600-150314235

LAX 02/041 LAX AIRSPACE SEE FDC 5/1510 LAX VFR SPECIAL FLIGHT RULES AREA 1502102017-1503142359

FDC 5/1431 (KLAX A0382/15) LAX CA..ROUTE LOS ANGELES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, LOS ANGELES, CA. LAX VFR MINI ROUTE LAX VFR MINI ROUTE NA DUE TO SMO VOR OUTAGE 1502101600-1503142359

FDC 5/1510 LAX AIRSPACE LOS ANGELES VFR SPECIAL FLIGHT RULES AREA NOT AVBL EXCEPT FOR AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH SUITABLE RNAV SYSTEM. SMO VOR/DME OUT OF SERVICE. 1502101600-1503142359

There don't appear to be any NOTAMS regarding the Coastal Route (5500/6500, uses LAX VOR), the Coliseum Route (8500/9500, uses VNY and SLI VORs), or the Hollywood Park Route (also 8500/9500, uses VNY VOR).

 

[Henning]

I know you usually fly twins, but do you really want to be in a single, at 1500-2000 feet, 12-14 miles off-shore? (that's how far the surface area goes past the shoreline).

--Carlos V.

Fish spotting was 11 hours at a time in a 172. Yeah, there's enough boat traffic in the area it's not major if you have a life jacket. You do have a point though, and overwater, mountains, and desert is why I chose a twin for my first plane. Plenty of people fly back and forth to Avalon single engine on a daily basis, and typically everybody stays under the marine layer getting there.

 

[James Darren]

The SFRA VFR Corridor is defined by the SMO 132 radial as indicated on the TAC that you are required to have on board to legally transit. If you know the route (which I do) you may be able to fly that radial without actually dialing in your radio, but legally speaking you cant fly a radial without some sort of navigational instrument, VFR or not. The NOTAM specifically says you need "suitable RNAV equipment" to use it right now. FlyingMonkey doesn't have that, so he cant legally use the corridor.

So if you can visibly see both SMO & LAX airports on the ground, can you still currently fly the SFRA now that the VOR is not working?

 

[Henning]

FYI, these are the NOTAMS:



There don't appear to be any NOTAMS regarding the Coastal Route (5500/6500, uses LAX VOR), the Coliseum Route (8500/9500, uses VNY and SLI VORs), or the Hollywood Park Route (also 8500/9500, uses VNY VOR).

A suitable RNAV for VFR = iPad.

 

[Henning]

So if you can visibly see both SMO & LAX airports on the ground, can you still currently fly the SFRA now that the VOR is not working?

Yep, if you have a GPS.

FDC 5/1510 LAX AIRSPACE LOS ANGELES VFR SPECIAL FLIGHT RULES AREA NOT AVBL EXCEPT FOR AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH SUITABLE RNAV SYSTEM. SMO VOR/DME OUT OF SERVICE. 1502101600-1503142359

 

[MAKG1]

I will tell you that simply calling SoCal and asking them for guidance will not work. You have to know what route you wanna take, and it needs to be one of the charted ones unless you wanna fly all the way around. Last time I flew to SMO (a week ago) there was a guy around torrance asking for vectors and they repeatedly told him he needed to look at a chart and pick a published route, and that they only way they could vector him would be WAY out over the water.

When I left Torrance and asked for the Hollywood Park route (as I needed to cross the San Gabriels and wanted the altitude anyway), SoCal "suggested" the Mini. Frankly, I should have stuck to my guns. The airspace is much simpler up high and I ended up getting the **** knocked out of me at 6500 over the mountains (not high enough).

I've also had SoCal approve an uncharted VFR descent south of LAX VOR on the Coastal route.

 

[StinkBug]

getting a non-standard clearance while on a published route is one thing, showing up and asking them to give you directions all the way through the Bravo is another.

 

[Shawn]

I have gotten non published vectors both into and out of the LAX Bravo while VFR, but it has ALWAYS started with a request and clearance for a published transition route. If you don't know the routes and don't have the request ready...they may keep ya out. I have heard that on frequency as well.

A lot of the biz jet and regional arrivals are routed north of LAX. I always get pretty strict altitude restrictions both IFR and VFR before they will let me make my climb out north of LAX. South of the field there is not much traffic and they are very accommodating for non published request.

 

[Scud_072]

So coming out of Van Nuys and heading to Catalina VFR... just contact SoCal Appch and request flight following and they'll help with a transition through the Class B? How would I get from KVNY to Catalina VFR?

Just flew to KAVX twice in the last two days using the Costal Route which works perfect for me to fly from Van Nuys to Catalina. From Van Nuys, 5500 feet on the 323 radial to the LAX VOR and the 123 radial from the LAX VOR toward San Pedro. I climb to 7500 for the transition over the channel giving me the option to always have glide distance back to either coast. 6500 feet on the way back. Easy peasy.