Future of R-22 refrigerant? Same as R-12 in cars?

[docmirror]

I have to replace a condenser in my AC unit in a rental. I'm leaning toward changing the evap out too and going with a 15 SEER R-410a unit. The cost over just replacing the R-22 condensing unit is significant.

The house is in Houston, it gets hot and humid a lot there, and I will not be paying the util bills. I'm a bit concerned about the availability of R-22 due to the EPA regs on reducing greenhouse gas emissions. But - in the end I'm betting it'll be like the R-12 of automotive industry. There's plenty of R-12 avail, it just costs a bit more than it used to back in the day.

So, in the end, I'm faced with two basic options. Pay more up front, and get 15 SEER with a new evap, or just toss a simple Goodman SEER 13 condenser in and let the tenants deal with the utility bills. Right now I'm leaning toward the low-cost SEER 13 option. The other option more than doubles the cost of replacing the condenser.

What say you? R-22 readily available for the next 15 years?

 

[docmirror]

OBTW, I don't need or want to hear about some SEER 18-22 unit unless the cap-ex is very close to the SEER 15 unit. I'm not going to dump a bunch of money into this house if it's gonna be rented for the next 15-20 years.

 

[ChemGuy]

It will be around. It cannot be MADE, or maybe even imported, but it can be recycled and used. The current stock is material that is used and cleaned from people replacing stuff like you. It gets more expensive every year, but when this unit takes a crap in 5-10 years then you can decide to go to a more green friendly, and crappier cooling version.

Dan

 

[Henning]

I have to replace a condenser in my AC unit in a rental. I'm leaning toward changing the evap out too and going with a 15 SEER R-410a unit. The cost over just replacing the R-22 condensing unit is significant.

The house is in Houston, it gets hot and humid a lot there, and I will not be paying the util bills. I'm a bit concerned about the availability of R-22 due to the EPA regs on reducing greenhouse gas emissions. But - in the end I'm betting it'll be like the R-12 of automotive industry. There's plenty of R-12 avail, it just costs a bit more than it used to back in the day.

So, in the end, I'm faced with two basic options. Pay more up front, and get 15 SEER with a new evap, or just toss a simple Goodman SEER 13 condenser in and let the tenants deal with the utility bills. Right now I'm leaning toward the low-cost SEER 13 option. The other option more than doubles the cost of replacing the condenser.

What say you? R-22 readily available for the next 15 years?

Well, just because you're not paying the electric bill doesn't mean you're not wasting energy, but I imagine you'll be able to service the R-22 system for some more years to come. I don't know a car that still uses R-12 though since the conversion is cheaper than servicing with R-12.

 

[FORANE]

R-22 can be manufactured through Jan 2020. After that date only reclaimed R-22 will be available. So, the price will increase.

One option would be to just buy some R-22 in 30 lb tanks now so you have it when you need it. A 30 lb tank may be purchased for $200-250 on craigslist today. In order for you to buy it though you need to have EPA 608 certification. EPA 608 certification has a few different types and even a type 1 certification holder may legally buy R-22. A type 1 certification may be obtained quickly and easily online in a few hours even for a novice with a little study from numerous sites for less than $100.

 

[docmirror]

I think the smart play is for me to just buy a 30Lb jug now and put it in the attic. Couple hundred bucks insurance. My other houses are R22 anyway.

 

[ChemGuy]

R-22 can be manufactured through Jan 2020. After that date only reclaimed R-22 will be available. So, the price will increase.

My mistake. Its banned but can be brought in to service existing systems till 2020. Next year the reduction in usage % goes way up and maybe the price as well. But after 2020 its only the recycled stuff left here.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/22phaseout.html

 

[docmirror]

Well, just because you're not paying the electric bill doesn't mean you're not wasting energy, but I imagine you'll be able to service the R-22 system for some more years to come. I don't know a car that still uses R-12 though since the conversion is cheaper than servicing with R-12.

Well, first off "wasting" energy is a matter of opinion. Since I'm replacing a worn out, crappy SEER 9/10 unit with a 13 I'm actually benefiting the world at large.

You are sorely mistaken about the cost of converting R-12 in some cars. I have 4 R-12 cars now that I can service with my gauges easily. Converting and getting the same cooling capacity would require a ton of money, because I need to change the condenser, and the evap to larger units to retain the same BTU exchange properties.

 

[Henning]

Meh, I've converted a several cars and with a dryer, some orings and 134a juice for under $200 and even in Florida it works fine unless you want a meat locker in your car.

 

[docmirror]

Meh, I've converted a several cars and with a dryer, some orings and 134a juice for under $200 and even in Florida it works fine unless you want a meat locker in your car.

Sorry, but that is utter BS. Thermal exchange of R-134a is about 72% of R-12. I'm in a lot of hot places, and right now, even with a good running R-12 system in my Porsche, it's still marginal on hottest days. With R-134a it would be 8-11 deg hotter. You're the kind of guy that accepts marginal systems when they are even more marginal. I'm not

 

[Henning]

I'm the kind of guy that likes to be warm lol. BTW, the best way I have found to increase efficiency and reduce home air conditioning cost is with a misting system hose around the condenser unit with a Magnavalve wired into the fan circuit to open. Gets down right cold, and it cut my landlady's electric bill nearly in half, but she has an ancient unit.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Just saw this today....

Gives you an idea on Wholesale costs....

SPLIT 13 SEER AIR CONDITIONING = OUTDOOR UNIT, INDOOR COIL, PAD, LINE SET, THERMOSTAT, WHIP, DISCONNECT,
2 YEAR LABOR WARRANTY, FREIGHT

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS =
OUTDOOR UNIT, INDOOR COIL, PAD, LINE SET, THERMOSTAT, WHIP, DISCONNECT,
2 YEAR LABOR WARRANTY, FREIGHT

13 SEER AC -- 2 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1392

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS 2 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1607

13 SEER AC -- 2 ½ TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1417

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS 2 ½ TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1689

13 SEER AC -- 3 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1486

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS 3 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1791

13 SEER AC -- 3 ½ TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1669

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS 3 ½ TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1985

13 SEER AC -- 4 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1753

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS 4 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $2074

13 SEER AC -- 5 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $1901

SPLIT 13 SEER HEAT PUMPS 5 TON COMPLETE SYSTEM $2339

 

[docmirror]

Yeah, I got a pretty good deal. $1200 for the 13 SEER condensing 3 ton unit installed at my place, vacuum down, pressure test, charge fill in late July. The guy knows his stuff. I got competing offers from $1600-2200

 

[MAKG1]

Meh, I've converted a several cars and with a dryer, some orings and 134a juice for under $200 and even in Florida it works fine unless you want a meat locker in your car.

I've done that, too, but adequacy varies. Not enough airflow in a Ford truck. The VW is frigid, even in the desert in summer. It's a POS car, but that converted AC is amazing.

Doing it "right" does involve more than a little ester, dryer, o-rings and R-134a. But an evap and condenser isn't all that expensive either. I ended up going that route in the Exploder when it ate its compressor, as it was a whole lot easier than a massive flush.

 

[docmirror]

I've done that, too, but adequacy varies. Not enough airflow in a Ford truck. The VW is frigid, even in the desert in summer.

Doing it "right" does involve more than a little ester, dryer, o-rings and R-134a. But an evap and condenser isn't all that expensive either. I ended up going that route in the Exploder when it ate its compressor, as it was a whole lot easier than a massive flush.

Converting the Ferrari was $3200-ish. Converting the Porsche to do it right would be over $1600. It is not trivial. The only major component retained is the compressor.

 

[MAKG1]

Converting the Ferrari was $3200-ish. Converting the Porsche to do it right would be over $1600. It is not trivial. The only major component retained is the compressor.

Changing the tires on those cars is outrageously expensive.

I spent $300 on parts for the Exploder when it ate its compressor. Including the compressor.

The VW will cost more if its compressor dies.

 

[Alexb2000]

Changing r12 to r134 kind of works depending. To make up for the difference in efficiency between the refrigerants manufacturers increased the volume output of the compressors and the efficiency of the condensers. R134 vehicles really need a large parallel flow condenser. So if you have a POS Harrison R4 and a single flow condenser, good luck. You're better off converting to a good compressor like a Seltec and a parallel flow condenser. In a 911 using dual parallel flow condensers is a good way to go, but an expensive retrofit.

Do it right or stay with R12 (you can still get it).

 

[jaybee]

Thermal exchange of R-134a is about 72% of R-12.

Source ?

The CO-P and cooling capacity of Rl34a proved to exceed that of R12 for the majority of test conditions.

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1154&context=iracc

I'm with Henning, 20 years of auto mechanic experience, I've converted 100's of AC systems to 134 in hot and humid Florida, it was very rare to have a performance issue and when I did there was usually something wrong with the system itself (partially clogged evaporator from years of dirt buildup). When the owner authorized the expense, and add on electric cooling fan to the condenser "fixed" nearly every problem system. <--- source is first hand experience.

If you had an issue with your retrofits it sounds like an installer issue from where I sit.

Some more info - http://www.griffiths.com/achelp/achelp3.html

 

[NavAir]

I have to agree with Henning on this one. Converted the AC on my '89 vette to r134a a few years back and it cools better than ever. I know all about the theoretical thermodynamics arguments, but in my N of one, it works! Of course, I was probably low on r12, and I did replace the orifice as well, but as others have said, it can work well. r12 costs a fortune. I should have bought a few cartons before they embargoed it...

 

[RV10flyer]

Yeah, I got a pretty good deal. $1200 for the 13 SEER condensing 3 ton unit installed at my place, vacuum down, pressure test, charge fill in late July. The guy knows his stuff. I got competing offers from $1600-2200

I hope you had him install the matching 13 SEER indoor coil too(the part that usually takes the longest to replace and most guys don't want to fool with it).

The dry ship nitrogen charged condensing unit, R-22 and markup alone would cost $1000 so I am guessing you have a mis-matched system or he works for nothing. The higher prices were to get it done correctly, the way we are taught in school and the way manufacturers/distributors expect us to do it.

 

[Doggtyred]

Get the new unit. You will be doing yourself a favor. The tenants will be paying cheaper utility bills with the newer unit. If they've been somewhere else with an old AC they will appreciate the cheaper utilities and they will be more likely to stay longer than one lease (while remaining renters)...

I didn't realize how significant a new unit was until I replaced a 30 year old unit... oh.. my.. gosh.... (and thats in League City, right up the road from you...).. Its a rent house now...

 

[RV10flyer]

Get the new unit. You will be doing yourself a favor. The tenants will be paying cheaper utility bills with the newer unit. If they've been somewhere else with an old AC they will appreciate the cheaper utilities and they will be more likely to stay longer than one lease (while remaining renters)...

I didn't realize how significant a new unit was until I replaced a 30 year old unit... oh.. my.. gosh.... (and thats in League City, right up the road from you...).. Its a rent house now...

I see the nice current drops going from 10 to 13 SEER on just a 10-15 yr old unit. A 30 yr old unit that has not been cleaned and capacitors checked can easily draw twice the current as a new 13 SEER.

I have to say though...the new ones are only assembled here and are of much lower quality and much higher priced.

 

[Doggtyred]

I see the nice current drops going from 10 to 13 SEER on just a 10-15 yr old unit. A 30 yr old unit that has not been cleaned and capacitors checked can easily draw twice the current as a new 13 SEER.

I have to say though...the new ones are only assembled here and are of much lower quality and much higher priced.

Well... I'm happy with the Goodman brand... assembled locally by the Goodman company here in Houston. Got an outer unit at my primary house and a inner and outer unit at my rent house...

Rocky at Cosmic AC has done good by me twice. He's in channel view but goes everywhere. Small business owner.

 

[RV10flyer]

Well... I'm happy with the Goodman brand... assembled locally by the Goodman company here in Houston. Got an outer unit at my primary house and a inner and outer unit at my rent house...

Rocky at Cosmic AC has done good by me twice. He's in channel view but goes everywhere. Small business owner.

I sell and like Goodman too. It is all assembled from parts made in China or Mexico. I always tell everyone to get a good installer that is going to be there down the road.

As long as you are replacing an older 13 SEER outdoor unit with a new 13 SEER unit, it will work fine. If you keep an old 10 SEER indoor unit with a new 13 SEER, you may have problems and it may void the warranty.

 

[docmirror]

It's all in and running fine. The air handler and evap were replaced about 4 years back when the roof was redone. Now the condenser is in and it works very well. The AC guy and I did all the work, now I don't know how to get rid of the old unit that's all crapped up. I don't think even an appliance guy would take it. Oh well, I'll scrap it out bit by bit.

 

[MAKG1]

I've never disposed of a fixed installation, but for mobile, I just haul it to the dump and recycle it for free. It's nearly all aluminum.

 

[SCCutler]

When I needed to recharge the AC on my Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser, replacing seals, etc., the AC guy converted to R414b ("Hot Shot"), rather than R134. Works great, has been for 7 years.

 

[Bill]

even with a good running R-12 system in my Porsche, it's still marginal on hottest days.

Depends on the car. I converted a 1978 Merc Grand Marquis using the method Henning alluded to and it cooled as well as any modern car. Of course, back in the day, that Merc on R-12 would absolutely freeze you out. Even on a 100F day, you could hang meat in that thing in 5 minutes flat. Huge capacity.

 

[Bill]

The VW is frigid, even in the desert in summer. It's a POS car, but that converted AC is amazing.

Same experience, I've owned two VWs, both had killer AC systems. To bad the rest of the cars are made of crap.