Full scale biplane takes out giant scale R/C at event

Wow, what an unsafe situation. Planes trying to taxi and takeoff afterwards with people all over. Feel bad for both pilots, luckily they are safe.
 
Wow, RC and real planes just don't go well together in the same airspace , Poor planning and poor communication.
 
That's a huge mess - they were just assuming the other airplane would be stopped. Clearly the full-scale airplane had no intention of landing and was doing a highspeed low-pass with smoke.

They have no idea how to operate any of that safely - people walking everywhere - a guy flying a freaking RC airplane on teh runway with someone else landing on the runway? Figured he'd get stopped in time or something? Didn't figure someone might do a low-pass.

Amazing they didn't kill anyone.
 
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** Report created 8/19/2010 Record 2 **
********************************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 28KT Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- SA750
Date: 08/14/2010 Time: 1800

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: Y Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: BRIGHTON State: CO Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT WHILE MAKING OVER FLIGHT OF RUNWAY STRUCK RADIO-CONTROLLED
AIRCRAFT; BRIGHTON, CO

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Other Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: DENVER, CO (NM03) Entry date: 08/19/2010
 
ScottM said:
Interesting opinions on the RC board about about this accident. The pilot of the RC model is the thread OP, Hoverlover2. You will get to read his first hand account.
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That whole crowd control, or lack of it, doesn't look good.

A couple of people dropped the ball on this one.

edit: I just watched it again, with the volume up higher. Sounds like the guy with the radio was telling the Pitts "I didn't know you were going around, I'm sorry." Appears like he might have cleared the Pitts to land, knowing there were people on and around the rwy.
 
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ScottM said:
Interesting opinions on the RC board about about this accident. The pilot of the RC model is the thread OP, Hoverlover2. You will get to read his first hand account.

Ok Slick bro's ya ready for this ****. Bad news. The Slick is dead !! She was hit by a full size Pitts Special, Iv got pics & video I will be uploading real soon, Cory, and me went to do a demo for a childrens charity event at a real airport, and I was hovering on the deck and down comes a full size Pitts , dude and his wife were flying in it, and he procedes to do a high speed on the deck pass without clearing with the flight boss and wham !! He made an emergency landing, leadingedge of his bottom wing has a 1'X1' foot dent, and is not flyable. Dumbass could have killed himself and his wife pulling crap like that, No clearance with control whatso ever, and all I got was im sorry. Now im out $8000.00, but I got an apology which is worth nothing, ya wont believe the video !! Coming soon !!! Damm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't know what he means by "no clearance with control", CO12 is an untowered private airport in Class G airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
I don't know what he means by "no clearance with control", CO12 is an untowered private airport in Class G airspace.
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Probably referring to the guy on the handheld radio standing near him in parts of the video. I've flown RC at a number of contests in the Lehigh Valley area (at RC club fields, not airports) and they have a field boss who controls pit area traffic and the flight line.

This was just a bad situation all around.
 
I skimmed the thread over there. The RC guys seem to think that a guy with a handheld has atc authority. And I guess that is true on their club run fields. Doesn't make a bit of difference in the real world though...
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Probably referring to the guy on the handheld radio standing near him in parts of the video. I've flown RC at a number of contests in the Lehigh Valley area (at RC club fields, not airports) and they have a field boss who controls pit area traffic and the flight line.
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I assume that control is limited to the RC activities.
 
ScottM said:
Interesting opinions on the RC board about about this accident.
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Yeah, interesting as in mostly outrageously ignorant and grossly uninformed beratement of the Acroduster pilot.

Fault is all around, but primarily with the fly-in organizers who allowed and managed the RC display.
 
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whifferdill said:
Yeah, interesting as in mostly outrageously ignorant and grossly uninformed beratement of the Acroduster pilot.

Fault is all around, but primarily with the fly-in organizers who allowed and managed the RC display.
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Well, what did they do? If they put out a NOTAM closing the field and a couple of Xs on the runway ends I'd say fault is primarily with the Acroduster pilot.
 
I'm not sure what authority Reggie with a Radio has to control traffic at the uncontrolled field, my guess is none. Were pilots even aware that there were RC demos taking place? NOTAMS? Me thinks the RC hobbist is a bit indignant and playing a CYA game. My best guess would be the organizers are in some hot water. I mean why would anyone intermix RC Demos with real aircraft at a public use field. That is just asking for trouble.
 
roncachamp said:
Well, what did they do? If they put out a NOTAM closing the field and a couple of Xs on the runway ends I'd say fault is primarily with the Acroduster pilot.
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You think they did that? Judging from how haphazardly the guys on the ground dealt with the whole thing, I'd say this was not the case. There was a plane taxiing out for T/O just after the incident. Even if they had issued a NOTAM, mostly all that may do is possibly help cover their ass incase something happens. What percentage of pilots do you think either check notams or get a full brief before going to a local fly-in like this? A NOTAM for something like this is no way to ensure safety.

Mostly what I'm saying is that the RC display would have been at the invitation and request of the fly-in organizers. It was their main reponsbility to ensure the safety of the display and that proper procedures were in place. It was obviously very poorly planned, executed, and coordinated. I don't think it's wise to even do this at an uncontrolled field. I've seen this type of thing done safely at controlled fields.

It looked to me like the whole peanut gallery that surrounded the incident were watching the model and nobody had much thought about other air traffic. The Acroduster guy may not have known there was even RC flying going on and he definitely never saw the model. His sin was doing what always happens multiple times when planes flock together like this - doing a low pass. His primary responsibility was to see and avoid other air traffic. A small, practically stationary (hovering) model is not what we're typically looking for. Yes, the FAA will probably cite him in violation of the 500' rule, but I think this is incidental, and not where the root of the fault lies.
 
AdamZ said:
I'm not sure what authority Reggie with a Radio has to control traffic at the uncontrolled field, my guess is none. Were pilots even aware that there were RC demos taking place? NOTAMS? Me thinks the RC hobbist is a bit indignant and playing a CYA game. My best guess would be the organizers are in some hot water. I mean why would anyone intermix RC Demos with real aircraft at a public use field. That is just asking for trouble.
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The FAA addresses some of these issues in AC 91-57. I found this to be of particular interest:

d. Give right of way to, and avoid flying in the proximity of, full-scale aircraft. Use observers to help if possible.
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whifferdill said:
You think they did that?
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Just recognizing the possibility.

Judging from how haphazardly the guys on the ground dealt with the whole thing, I'd say this was not the case. There was a plane taxiing out for T/O just after the incident. Even if they had issued a NOTAM, mostly all that may do is possibly help cover their ass incase something happens.
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And how often are things done solely to cover an ass in case something happens?

What percentage of pilots do you think either check notams or get a full brief before going to a local fly-in like this? A NOTAM for something like this is no way to ensure safety.
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This was a fly-in? Looked like an RC meet to me. I'd expect the airport operator to make his tenants aware of it.
 
AdamZ said:
I'm not sure what authority Reggie with a Radio has to control traffic at the uncontrolled field, my guess is none. Were pilots even aware that there were RC demos taking place? NOTAMS? Me thinks the RC hobbist is a bit indignant and playing a CYA game. My best guess would be the organizers are in some hot water. I mean why would anyone intermix RC Demos with real aircraft at a public use field. That is just asking for trouble.
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From what I read it appears there was no NOTAM and no X's on the field. You can watch the video and see other full sized aircraft taxiing. Far too many people running all around the active runway IMHO. This is a safety CF.

IT was just plain foolish of the even organizers to have manned airplanes and RC airplanes mixing it up without some sort of NOTAM and spotters. The guy flying the RC was told he had permission to do be there per the event organizers. Seems they need to be taking some responsibility here. The rules that the manned aircraft were operating under make an assumption. That is anyone else using that runway is following the rules.

It is my understanding that an RC pilot should have had spotters. It does not look like this guy had spotters and was overly relying on the so called 'airboss' or as they call him in the RC thread, 'the dude with a radio'. That is his mistake and he needs to understand that as well. As for the Pitt pilot we need more info. Was he invited to be at this show and to do demos? Was this bad coordination? It appears that he was attempting to land and then advised to go around, even on the go around there is no minimum altitude that he had to follow. The smoke made him more visible. The comm should have been from the 'air boss' a lot more clear to the Pitt.

But still this all comes down to some pretty poor management by the fly-in operators.
 
roncachamp said:
And how often are things done solely to cover an ass in case something happens?
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Let me introduce you to modern society! :D Not that I think anyone would actually use a NOTAM just for this purpose.

roncachamp said:
This was a fly-in? Looked like an RC meet to me.
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It's at an airport, with many full-scale planes parked all around, including a plane taxiing on the runway, not to mention the Acroduster. A small group of RC planes, with the RC pilot being "led" out by the fly-in organizers. Obviously it was a full-scale fly-in that included an ill-conceived RC display. I've never heard of an RC meet at a real airport with this many full-scale planes coming in as a sideshow to the RC flying.
 
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whifferdill said:
It's at an airport, with many full-scale planes parked all around, including a plane taxiing on the runway, not to mention the Acroduster. A small group of RC planes, with the RC pilot being "led" out by the fly-in organizers. Obviously it was a full-scale fly-in that included an ill-conceived RC display. I've never heard of an RC meet at a real airport with this many full-scale planes coming in as a sideshow to the RC flying.
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Well, I didn't get that impression, so that's obviously not so obvious.
 
Has anyone chimed in over there? There's quite a bit of mis-information being thrown about.
 
EdFred said:
Has anyone chimed in over there? There's quite a bit of mis-information being thrown about.
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Go for it ! They seem like a friendly bunch who would welcome the opinion of 'real airplane' drivers!! :thumbsup::D

Show 'em your pilots license and instructor permit! ;)

That'll impress them!
 
ScottM said:
Go for it ! They seem like a friendly bunch who would welcome the opinion of 'real airplane' drivers!! :thumbsup::D

Show 'em your pilots license and instructor permit! ;)

That'll impress them!
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And airport manager - which might carry a big more weight, especially since I'm blaming the airboss. Last year at 6Y9 we had R/C, UL, helicopters, I believe a nordo, and of course the rest of us FLIBs. The R/C guy and I coordinated, and he had a partner that I talked with and let him know when he needed to shut down his ops and clear the runway.
 
whifferdill said:
Yep, I started a separate thread a few days ago in response to the amazingly ignorant drivel directed toward the Acroduster pilot.

http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56081
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Interesting.

Just an add in. There is an airport near where I live that has an RC field very close to it. I was coming in for a landing and saw, out of the corner of my eye, and RC plane below me, but very close. Before I could even think that it was an RC I was aborting based on the reflex that it was a full size plane and we were far too near. I don't think manned aircraft pilots are thinking small and RC when we are doing our see and avoid routine.
 
I fly out of CO12 (Van Aire Airpark). My folks still live there.

This was a full-scale fly-in to benefit a local kids hospital.

I know the guy who organized it (on the radio). There is no tower (though one house has something that looks like a control tower). CO12 is a private field that is not public use, you have to have permission to land there. Being invited to a fly-in would constitute permission.

Most of the people are standing on the taxiway, not the runway.
 
It'll be interesting to see what both sides have to say here.

I wonder if the Pitts truly did a go-around.

I don't check with anyone when I choose to go-around. I wonder if the Pitts driver was aware there was an RC bird in the air. If not he may have gone around upon seeing the RC.
 
The real sad part is the clown with the RC plane may actually recover if he sues. As an example, look at the Baron? with the gear trouble at Meigs. He was successfully sued by the family of those killed in a mid-air collision, because he monopolized the controller. The lawyers ignored 'see and avoid in VFR', and pinned the blame on this guy.

If it goes to trial, the pilot will state that he needed no clearance, and the RC guy will say 'but we were there first - you hit a stationary object - the runway was not clear'.

I think a similar case was the impetus for the GA revitalization act. Someone intentionally blocked the runway, and the taildragger (J3?) hit him. They sued Piper and won. (Poor design - pilot couldn't see the van blocking the runway).
 
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Troy; That pretty much sums up the video and all the 40 or so pages of BS that go along with it. $8,000 vs what $100,000 plus the two lives he almost killed.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
:rofl: :rofl:

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Too funny.

My money is on the FAA finding both pilots (Acroduster and R/C) violated regulations and are at fault.

The Acroduster pilot's claim that he was "going around" aint gonna hold water - not with the high speed, low altitude, smoke on, length of the runway, done hit something in front of a crowd, pass being on youtube - no way the FAA is going to let him get away with that.

And the R/C pilot apparently A: declined the use of a spotter, and B: was flying (and walking) on a not-closed runway for an extended time and never once looked around to see if there was any 1:1 scale traffic. And, given that there was a collision, no way he is going to get a pass from the FAA. His claim that he was "cleared" to fly there??? You gotta be kidding.

But, what can/will the FAA do to a R/C pilot? The Acroduster guy could end up with a suspension / check ride / etc. But what kind of penalties can the FAA apply to a R/C pilot?
 
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