Full flaps or partial flaps on final approach?

There are very few situations where I don't use full flaps in the Baron (and the same when I flew a Bonanza). I've never found partial flaps to be any real benefit in a crosswind on any plane I've flown enough to tell the difference.
 
Nav8tor said:
Chris, I assume element landings have to do with formation flying, given your signature. Why no flaps? Whats different about formation landings?
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Not sure why Chris does it differently, but I suspect it's personal, not standard. There's nothing written in the T-34 FFM (the bible of formation flying) about using less than full flaps in element landings, we use full flaps on all landings (element or singles) in the FFI-certified Grumman formation community, and I know the FAST-certified T-34's and T-28's do the same. We used full flaps for element landings in F-4's, too, but that's probably not very germane to the matter.
 
I would like to have a choice in my little cub. But for me it is alway no flaps. That is the way it came.
John
 
If I'm in visual conditions, I'll use full flaps whether I'm in the King Air, the Hawker or the Mooney. If IMC, I'll use whatever I have selected at the FAF all the way to touchdown and adjust my approach ref accordingly. I routinely practice no flap ops in all the airplanes I fly.
 
Nav8tor said:
Chris, I assume element landings have to do with formation flying, given your signature. Why no flaps? Whats different about formation landings?
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This will also answer Ron's comment as well. When flying in mixed formations and with different vintages of aircraft, not all have the same flap settings. For example, my Bo does not have preset settings. (10 degrees, 20 degrees, full; or approach/full settings). It would require you to watch the indicator, instead of lead, for your flaps to come to a specific setting. You could land full flaps instead, but we wont land as an element on any short/narrow runway. So we normally skip the flaps.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure why Chris does it differently, but I suspect it's personal, not standard. There's nothing written in the T-34 FFM (the bible of formation flying) about using less than full flaps in element landings, we use full flaps on all landings (element or singles) in the FFI-certified Grumman formation community, and I know the FAST-certified T-34's and T-28's do the same. We used full flaps for element landings in F-4's, too, but that's probably not very germane to the matter.
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Same in the CJ-6.
 
Cap'n Ron's post #37 sums up this discussion nicely for me. Ron, I miss your wisdom, where have you been?
 
AirBaker said:
This will also answer Ron's comment as well. When flying in mixed formations and with different vintages of aircraft, not all have the same flap settings. For example, my Bo does not have preset settings. (10 degrees, 20 degrees, full; or approach/full settings). It would require you to watch the indicator, instead of lead, for your flaps to come to a specific setting. You could land full flaps instead, but we wont land as an element on any short/narrow runway. So we normally skip the flaps.
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Do I understand you do dissimilar element landings? If so, you've got more guts than I do -- we in the Grumman world don't do element takeoffs or landings other than with same types in the element. But even with similar types, why not just use full flaps the way FAST, FFI, and everyone else I know teach it?
 
I dont think thats what he's saying Ron. They are flying Bonanzas. But differences in models have different flap settings. some have 10,20,30 degrees (or something similar), others just have approach and full settings.

It would be like flying a couple 150's formation. One is old and has the flap switch you must hold down and then watch the indicator on the left post. The other has the switch with detents that you set at 10/20/30/40.

Chris is like the guy with the indicator. If his flight lead has the 10/20/30 detents and calls for "flaps 20" then chris has to take his eyes of the flight lead and put them on the flap indicator. Not a very good idea when you are only a few feet off his wingtip. Sounds to me like the safe thing to do in his situation is to leave the flaps up, like they are doing.
 
tonycondon said:
Chris is like the guy with the indicator. If his flight lead has the 10/20/30 detents and calls for "flaps 20" then chris has to take his eyes of the flight lead and put them on the flap indicator. Not a very good idea when you are only a few feet off his wingtip. Sounds to me like the safe thing to do in his situation is to leave the flaps up, like they are doing.
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That's supposed to be handled by a) using only full flaps up/down and nothing in between, and/or b) properly briefing before flight. If folks aren't doing that, they aren't playing by the T-34 FFM which is the bible for both FFI and FAST.
 
sounds to me like their preflight briefing includes that they wont be using flaps during landing, in order to maximize flight safety.
 
tonycondon said:
Chris is like the guy with the indicator. If his flight lead has the 10/20/30 detents and calls for "flaps 20" then chris has to take his eyes of the flight lead and put them on the flap indicator. Not a very good idea when you are only a few feet off his wingtip. Sounds to me like the safe thing to do in his situation is to leave the flaps up, like they are doing.
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I could just see it in a group of old Travel Airs... "Let's go three rivets of flaps..." They don't have any indicator whatsoever, you just look at the wing. I used to just set the trim and adjust the flaps for attitude.
 
Henning said:
I could just see it in a group of old Travel Airs... "Let's go three rivets of flaps..." They don't have any indicator whatsoever, you just look at the wing. I used to just set the trim and adjust the flaps for attitude.
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Flap position indicator in my old Bonanza is the old reliable "one-mississippi, two-mississippi, three-mississippi ..." :D

-- Pilawt
 
Pretty much what Tony said. :) I've got an indicator, but its either counting mississippis or eyes off lead.

We definitely could use full flaps, and do on occasion. Either way, it is briefed prior. But the aircraft fly just fine flaps up.

Also, there can be several elements on the runway in a 'high speed' taxi to the end, similar to a B2OSH arrival. If the first element raises the gear instead of flaps, this could really screw up the remaining elements that are on the ground behind them. I don't doubt there are some differences here, but we do try to follow the T-34 manual as best as possible. ;)

I fly with both FFI and FAST folks. I'm pretty sure that for the FFI check ride (not sure about FAST yet) doesn't require full flap landings.
 
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