Fuel starved plane down in Lake Michigan

[Bill]

I use 10/hr for planning with my Archer, but actually see closer to 8 when leaned correctly (with fuel prices where they're at it's ALWAYS leaned properly), but there is no way I'm changing my planning figure. I like the cushion, and over the big lakes in the dark and cold? I ain't goin' without that funny smelling blue water at least touchin' the tabs!

I guess I'm more conservative. I plan our club's Archer III at 11/hr, so with 48 usable that is 4:21. I take another hour off that, and my butt is on the ground at 3:21.

 

[Razor]

I had no idea this (Lake reporting service) existed!

A lot of people don't, and I it's under-utilized as a result. I'm glad I was able to give you some new information. Those on their way to Oshkosh in July should take advantage. There's a corresponding service by the AFSS on the other side of the lake as well in order to get home.

This is one of those services I'm concerned will go away if the plan to privative Flight Service goes forward.

Carolyn

 

[Razor]

I guess I'm more conservative. I plan our club's Archer III at 11/hr, so with 48 usable that is 4:21. I take another hour off that, and my butt is on the ground at 3:21.

I like the way you plan. I suggest to everyone I fly with that they dismiss the FAA minimums and go with an hour of fuel reserve instead.

For myself, I can't last 3:21 in an airplane anyway... TBS ya know (Tiny Bladder Syndrome)? ;-)

Carolyn

 

[Tom-D]

It appears this company is a major supplier of life jackets to airlines. These are the small compact ones you find under your seat.

http://www.switlik.com/

If people are interested I am willing to see if they might be interested in offering a deal to POA users. I purchased four of these on ebay for $19 last year.

Do you know the purpose of a life vest in cold water?



It allows the body to be found so the widow won't be required to wait 7 years to prove you are dead.

 

[corjulo]

Do you know the purpose of a life vest in cold water?



It allows the body to be found so the widow won't be required to wait 7 years to prove you are dead.

So, that's a plus? Still better then nothing, and if it the summer then everybody's happy

 

[Ed Guthrie]

It appears this company is a major supplier of life jackets to airlines. These are the small compact ones you find under your seat.

http://www.switlik.com/

If people are interested I am willing to see if they might be interested in offering a deal to POA users. I purchased four of these on ebay for $19 last year.

If you find yourself purchasing bargain basement, aviation type life preservers be sure to ask for the inspection expiration date (or, for that matter, when purchasing any aviation type life preserver, be it bargain basement price or Sporty's rip-off price). The life preserver should come with an official notation as to when the current inspection expires. Lots of folks around who will happily unload on an unsuspecting buyer those vests that failed inspection and are not suitable for use.

 

[gismo]

Thanks for posting this gem Razor, I had no idea this (Lake reporting service) existed! As a (new) Michigan pilot, it is quite likely I'll have use for this eventually. Even a good freind of mine, whose been flying this area for 49 years doesn"t (I'll wager anyway) know of it. Just sent him the link. With his current airplane, he can go high (and fast) and at max VFR altitude only has a few minutes out of glide range. Still.....

Those few minutes of exposure probably aren't a big risk, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T RUN OUT OF FUEL.

WRT the Lake Reporting Service, I've tried it a few times (long ago) with mixed results as far as ATC's willingness to participate. I think it may be a controller thing. Also IIRC that "every ten minutes" isn't real, when I tried it you basically called them up to activate when you crossed the near shore, once in the middle and once on the far side to close. Personally for those with the option to go IFR, I like that better.

 

[Maverick]

I've flown over Lake Michgan several times. I would not be inclined to do it in a rented or otherwise unfamiliar airplane and never low on fuel. I also want to be working ATC when ever I do fly over the lake so I file IFR.

Jeannie

 

[T Bone]

Those few minutes of exposure probably aren't a big risk, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T RUN OUT OF FUEL.

WRT the Lake Reporting Service, I've tried it a few times (long ago) with mixed results as far as ATC's willingness to participate. I think it may be a controller thing. Also IIRC that "every ten minutes" isn't real, when I tried it you basically called them up to activate when you crossed the near shore, once in the middle and once on the far side to close. Personally for those with the option to go IFR, I like that better.

Yeah, my freind emailed me back Turns out he's used the service many times! Still, now I know about it, and will probably use it someday.

Before I go accross though, I'll have a few survival items in the plane with me... and LOTS of fuel in the tanks!

 

[azure]

Yeah, my freind emailed me back Turns out he's used the service many times! Still, now I know about it, and will probably use it someday.

Before I go accross though, I'll have a few survival items in the plane with me... and LOTS of fuel in the tanks!

Do you have the Michigan Airport Directory, put out by MDOT? They have a page on the LM Lake Reporting Service, with FSS frequencies, crossing routes, and minimum reception altitudes. They also have a web site but the URL is broken.

I don't know if there are LRS available for any of the other Great Lakes. I haven't crossed LM alone, but I have gone over Erie from PHN direct to Cleveland which is about as long a crossing as LDM-MTW. Since that is through Canadian airspace you have to be on a VFR (edited to add: or IFR) flight plan, squawking and talking. In a familiar, well-maintained airplane I am not too uncomfortable with doing that, not too often of course, and as long as the weather will let me get up high enough to keep my exposure time down to 10-15 minutes at the most.

Liz

 

[Rudy]

That said, from being a CFI I know that judgement is difficult to teach and I think more needs to be done in that area. I agree with Lance. Age doesn't always determine ones judgement skills....but I think one's CFI can have an impact in the student learning good judgement if the student is willing to listen....hopefully they will learn too.

I completely agree, one of the best things I was taught was to always look for a field. Being new to it, i think it is a major thing to know that if you take chances(fuel quantity, bad weather, etc.) you can and probably eventually will get yourself in a pickel.
My Cherokee can fly between 4:30 and 5 hours with gas to the tabs. However i get ancy and uncomfortable if i got 3 or more. Maybe too conservative, but who is to say what's too conservative.
I know i won't ever run out of gas if i follow that, and to me thats all that matters!!

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I don't know if there are LRS available for any of the other Great Lakes.

Lake Reporting Service is available over western Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, and also available over the Everglades (FL). See AIM 4-1-20(e) for details.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

WRT the Lake Reporting Service, I've tried it a few times (long ago) with mixed results as far as ATC's willingness to participate. I think it may be a controller thing.

Tongue in cheek humor here: It might be a pilot thing.

LRS is provided by various participating AFSS facilities, not by ATC. Asking ATC to provide lake reporting is within the same relm as asking ATC to open/close a VFR flight plan--it isn't their domaine. Pilots wishing to participate must file separate LRS flight plans and make LRS reports through various participating AFSS facilities. See AIM 4-1-20(e) for details.

 

[azure]

I completely agree, one of the best things I was taught was to always look for a field. Being new to it, i think it is a major thing to know that if you take chances(fuel quantity, bad weather, etc.) you can and probably eventually will get yourself in a pickel.
My Cherokee can fly between 4:30 and 5 hours with gas to the tabs. However i get ancy and uncomfortable if i got 3 or more. Maybe too conservative, but who is to say what's too conservative.
I know i won't ever run out of gas if i follow that, and to me thats all that matters!!

IMO conservative is a good thing when it comes to fuel risk. On my student solo XCs I flew a 172N with a fuel burn rate that averaged out to about 6 hours endurance when flying XC at 5-6K. My long solo XC was a grand tour of lower MI: Marine City to Alpena to Traverse City to Muskegon and back. My one planned fuel stop was TVC. When I learned at APN that I would not be able to land to TVC because of an airshow, I changed my plans to fuel up at both APN *and* MKG, because I was comfortable neither with going all the way from 76G to APN to MKG (passing close, but not *too* close, to TVC) nor with trying to make it home all the way from APN without refueling. Either of those "legs" would be about 4 hours and my personal reserve is 1 hour of fuel, but planning to get down to within an hour of my reserves makes me antsy even today, in case of unexpected headwinds. I always try to plan so that even worst case, I'll be on the ground with more than 1h of fuel remaining.

Liz

 

[T Bone]

Do you have the Michigan Airport Directory, put out by MDOT? They have a page on the LM Lake Reporting Service, with FSS frequencies, crossing routes, and minimum reception altitudes. They also have a web site but the URL is broken.

I don't know if there are LRS available for any of the other Great Lakes. I haven't crossed LM alone, but I have gone over Erie from PHN direct to Cleveland which is about as long a crossing as LDM-MTW. Since that is through Canadian airspace you have to be on a VFR (edited to add: or IFR) flight plan, squawking and talking. In a familiar, well-maintained airplane I am not too uncomfortable with doing that, not too often of course, and as long as the weather will let me get up high enough to keep my exposure time down to 10-15 minutes at the most.

Liz

Not yet, but I'll pick one up! Planning to go to the R&R Hall of Fame in Cleveland later this year (walking distance from the field sounds cool). But I doubt I'll fly one of Kitze's rentals beyond glide range of the shore. Plus there's Clevelands Bravo to deal with, I think I'll duck under it near the shore. Still will need flotation devices, the 406 mhz PLB (ELT would go down with the plane, something many I've discussed this with failed to realize) and a signal mirror at least. More stuff= better, as long as it's accessable.

 

[woodstock]

no no news on this kid? they had his picture in the paper...

 

[azure]

Not yet, but I'll pick one up! Planning to go to the R&R Hall of Fame in Cleveland later this year (walking distance from the field sounds cool). But I doubt I'll fly one of Kitze's rentals beyond glide range of the shore. Plus there's Clevelands Bravo to deal with, I think I'll duck under it near the shore. Still will need flotation devices, the 406 mhz PLB (ELT would go down with the plane, something many I've discussed this with failed to realize) and a signal mirror at least. More stuff= better, as long as it's accessable.

"The field" meaning BKL no doubt? Hrrmmmm... beware of the FBO there (Million Air) and a wee bit of highway robbery. They slap you with a $35 so-called "landing fee" and a $3 "security fee". Sound exorbitant for a SE plane? It gets better. When you look at the receipt, it's not a landing fee at all but "ramp and parking fees". Then a month later an invoice arrives in the mail from the Department of Port Control at CLE, that's for the REAL landing fee - another $5. So it's $43 to park a single engine aircraft on the ramp at BKL for a few hours! If I went there again, I would call ahead to find out if there's any place to park away from the FBO entirely.

Sorry for the thread drift, just wanted to post a warning about that!

ObOnTopic: I couldn't find anything in the Mich Airport Directory about the Lake Erie LRS. And as Ed points out, it's a FSS provided service so you would need permission, I believe, for a freq change from ATC (if you go through Canadian airspace you must be on an assigned squawk). From 1D2 it might be easier to just cut south along the shore.

Liz

edited to add: I misread your post first time, it sounds like you will be in a rental and so planned from the start to take the shoreline route. Would probably do the same... though I've taken a newer Marine City rental to both MCD and 3W2.

 

[wsuffa]

Hmmm...

Last time I went to BKL I stayed for the weekend and bought fuel. No ramp or parking fees (w/fillup). I don't recall an invoice from the city, but it was a while ago.

Millionaire treated me fine.

 

[azure]

Hmmm...

Last time I went to BKL I stayed for the weekend and bought fuel. No ramp or parking fees (w/fillup). I don't recall an invoice from the city, but it was a while ago.

Millionaire treated me fine.

I didn't buy any fuel, maybe the fee is waived with fuel purchase. Also, the rep at the Port Authority I spoke with said that she would "call the airport and let them know that the FBO there is 'at it again'" - so it sounds like they had stopped doing something until recently. Not sure, though, if she was referring to the ridiculous fee, or the lying about what it was for.

Liz

 

[wsuffa]

I didn't buy any fuel, maybe the fee is waived with fuel purchase. Also, the rep at the Port Authority I spoke with said that she would "call the airport and let them know that the FBO there is 'at it again'" - so it sounds like they had stopped doing something until recently. Not sure, though, if she was referring to the ridiculous fee, or the lying about what it was for.

Liz

Dunno, Liz, all I know is that I got great service out of Millionair, they schlepped me to the hotel & picked me up (for which I probably would have paid $20 in cab fare), and they took care of the plane.

Sounds like you got a "$ignature" experience.....

 

[mikea]

A diver has reported spotting the plane with the cell phone next to it on the bottom of Lake Michigan.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050429planefound,1,2950345.story?coll=chi-news-hed

 

[Razor]

"The field" meaning BKL no doubt? Hrrmmmm... beware of the FBO there (Million Air) and a wee bit of highway robbery. They slap you with a $35 so-called "landing fee" and a $3 "security fee". Sound exorbitant for a SE plane? It gets better. When you look at the receipt, it's not a landing fee at all but "ramp and parking fees". Then a month later an invoice arrives in the mail from the Department of Port Control at CLE, that's for the REAL landing fee - another $5. So it's $43 to park a single engine aircraft on the ramp at BKL for a few hours! If I went there again, I would call ahead to find out if there's any place to park away from the FBO entirely.

Wow, last time I was at Burke I parked in front of the terminal and got charged a $4 landing fee (I guess it's $5 now). That was it. Didn't part at an FBO or anything, just in front of the terminal. Don't know if they've changed their policy since I was last in there, but try that.

Oh, and if you ever decide to go to Lorain County (LPN I believe), they now have a mandatory $10 landing fee for anything less than 10,000 pounds (it goes up from there), AND if you plan to spend the night, there's a $31 ramp fee. You'd be better off using Elyria airport rather than Lorain. They're both out in the middle of nowhere with at least a 25 minute drive to downtown, so I'd have to go with cheap over longer runways.

I'll have to watch my back next time I land at BKL though...

Carolyn

 

[sere]

what a sad story. Poor Kid.

how would you "ditch" it? would you do just as if you were landing, and presumably it would land but sink really fast? how could you control it - if you did nothing, wouldn't you likely just slice into the water?

What we used to teach aircrews in the air force was to ditch parallel to the waves. Keep gear up and open doors or canopy. And get out fast. Also orient yourself to exit as it is easy to get confused if a/c gets flipped around and sinks fast. It is also best to wear co2 inflation type life vest and carry a Heet Air Bottle. In the scuba diving industry you can replace the Heet with an item called a Spare Air. Has 2.7 Cu Ft of Air and is always on so all you have to do is put into your mouth and breath.

 

[Henning]

So don't cross and/or bring a raft.

Whenever I cross large bodies of cold water, I have my survival suit at least with me, if not in it to the waist. For small planes, especially rentals, rafts aren't very practical. My Gumby suit will keep me floating and reasonably warm in any conditions.