FSS question from a student

[eetrojan]

I'm just beginning my cross country training.

I'm confused about Flight Service Stations. I have read that the FSS system was contracted to Lockheed-Martin in 2005. I'm in California. And, when I googled around, it looked like Lockheed doesn't have any of its FSS centers in California.

Here in SoCal, though, there's an FSS called Riverside that appears to be co-located with the Riverside VOR at Riverside airport (RAL). There are also a dozen or so ways to reach " Riverside Radio" via various navigation aids or remote communication outlets (RCO). For example, the Santa Ana RCO located at my home field, John Wayne airport (SNA), let's me reach Riverside Radio on 122.45 even though the FSS is many miles away and there's a 6,000 foot mountain range between us.

My question is - are there people at Riverside Radio, or is all communication further routed to one of the Lockheed-Martin flight service stations?

Or, something else?

 

[AdamZ]

Ah great question and one that several years ago when Lockheed took ove would prompt some passionate responses. Lockheed consolidated the Flight Service Stations and several that are no where neare the "name station" provide the Wx info.

For example I live outside Philadelphia and we would get a breifing, file and open flight plans with with the Williamsport FSS that several years ago had real people in a real buidling that sat infront of a computer screen and took your calls. You could even go in for an inperson breifing.

Now however there is no one in Williamsport and they are located I think somewhere in Virgina, but they will still respond to Williamsport Radio.

 

[John221us]

Rancho radio is actually in Rancho Cordova, CA (near Sacramento, I think at Mather) and I have heard they give tours (though I haven't done that, yet). A lot of people don't like LockMart, but they seem to do a good job, when I call for a briefing. I am not that familiar with SoCal FSS, but have called for a departure briefing a few times, when I have flown down there (just on my cell phone).

 

[weilke]

Most of the briefers and radio-operators you are talking to are either in Ashburn,VA or Fort Worth,TX. One radio operator covers the area formerly assigned to a number of flight service stations. It has been my experience that they sometimes reply with the wrong station identifier, e.g. 'Plymouth radio' instead of the 'Huron Radio' that I had called.

In Alaska, FSS is still operated by the FAA.

 

[alfadog]

I was in the Miami FSS last week. First time I actually walked in for a briefing. The guys there said there are only five(?) six FSS facilities in the whole country and that any of them can do any briefing although they tend to stick with the region they are in.

 

[eetrojan]

Thanks all.

So, to confirm, if I was in the airspace below and contacted Riverside Radio, I will reach somebody in Prescott, AZ, regardless of whether I communicate directly via 122.2, or via the Paradise VOR on 112.2, or via the Homeland VOR on 122.1 while listening on 113.4?

Basically, Riverside Radio is a virtual collection point that relates to the history of the system?

Also, why does the "main" Riverside Radio communication box also have "Riverside" below the communication box? Is this actually an RCO and there's another main Riverside FSS that I'm missing?

 

[alfadog]

Thanks all.

So, to confirm, if I was in the airspace below and contacted Riverside Radio, I will reach somebody in Prescott, AZ, regardless of whether I communicate directly via 122.2, or via the Paradise VOR on 112.2, or via the Homeland VOR on 122.1 while listening on 113.4?

Basically, Riverside Radio is a virtual collection point that relates to the history of the system?

Also, why does the "main" Riverside Radio communication box also have "Riverside" below the communication box? Is this actually an RCO and there's another main Riverside FSS that I'm missing?

That is my understanding, that most of the actual FSS facilities have been closed. And the box refers to the VOR which is named "Riverside" also.

 

[weilke]

Basically, Riverside Radio is a virtual collection point that relates to the history of the system?

Correct.

The person at the other end may sit in Ashburn, VA, Fort Worth,TX Prescott,AZ or a few other locations. No relation to the name of the station you call up. Supposedly, each of them is a 'specialist' for the former FSS district he is answering for, but given that some briefer in a Texas drawl gave me the weather for the UP of michigan when I inquired about South Dakota, I am not so certain about that.

 

[poadeleted20]

You make the call to "Riverside Radio" so the person hearing the call knows which button to push to respond and has a rough idea where you are.

 

[Doggtyred]

My have times changed. When I first started coming to airports, most decent sized fields, towered or not, had an FSS on site... this was before automated weather observation really took off, so all the FSS's in addition to providing an in-person brief, also were the certified weather observer.

 

[dukeblue219]

Also, why does the "main" Riverside Radio communication box also have "Riverside" below the communication box? Is this actually an RCO and there's another main Riverside FSS that I'm missing?

I think the confusion here is because the VOR you're looking at is also called Riverside. There's no "main" Riverside Radio communication box that I'm aware of on your map. Do you know that there's apparently a VOR co-located with Riverside airport, indicated by the small white dot on the airport runway? That's the box you've pointed at. It's telling you the freq and identifier of the Riverside VOR (just northeast of the Paradise VOR, but no compass rose is drawn), and ALSO telling you that the nearest FSS is Riverside Radio, which you can reach using the frequencies shown.

Does that clear it up a bit? There are three VORs on the image you provided.

 

[N801BH]

I was in the Miami FSS last week. First time I actually walked in for a briefing. The guys there said there are only five(?) six FSS facilities in the whole country and that any of them can do any briefing although they tend to stick with the region they are in.

Is the MIA FSS still at Tamiami and in the same old building?..

I used to walk in there for briefings 30+ years ago..... Wow, does time fly..

 

[alfadog]

Is the MIA FSS still at Tamiami and in the same old building?..

I used to walk in there for briefings 30+ years ago..... Wow, does time fly..

Well, 30 years ago TMB was at a different location about 10 miles to the northeast but, yes, the FSS is on the "new" TMB grounds.

Here is a treat for you - old Tamiami airport

 

[N801BH]

Well, 30 years ago TMB was at a different location about 10 miles to the northeast but, yes, the FSS is on the "new" TMB grounds.

Hmmmm... I lived at 13900 SW152 St back in 1976 and Tamiami airport was clearly on 137 avenue..... About a mile or so from my home...

This was back when Mary Gaffney was giving instructions and before Kermit Weeks opened his operation...

In fact my next door neighber was a FSS specialist and I drove him to work several times..

 

[alfadog]

Hmmmm... I lived at 13900 SW152 St back in 1976 and Tamiami airport was clearly on 137 avenue..... About a mile or so from my home...

This was back when Mary Gaffney was giving instructions and before Kermit Weeks opened his operation...

No, you are right. I thought KTMB was a bit newer but they moved in 1967.

 

[alfadog]

Hmmmm... I lived at 13900 SW152 St back in 1976 and Tamiami airport was clearly on 137 avenue..... About a mile or so from my home...

This was back when Mary Gaffney was giving instructions and before Kermit Weeks opened his operation...

In fact my next door neighber was a FSS specialist and I drove him to work several times..

Gaffaney's abandoned gliderport is still a popular landmark for students and instructors as it lies at the near corner of the south Miami practice area so folks routinely make radio calls over it.

http://goo.gl/maps/D0Kfl

History:

http://www.miamigliders.com/history.html

 

[chartbundle]

Actually Rancho Radio was over at Rancho Murieta(RIU) 10 miles to the east of Rancho Cordova. It was actually off the field a block or so as I recall. The facility in Rancho Cordova a half mile east of Mather Field is actually Northern California Tracon(NCT). I believe they do give tours.

 

[N801BH]

Well, 30 years ago TMB was at a different location about 10 miles to the northeast but, yes, the FSS is on the "new" TMB grounds.

Here is a treat for you - old Tamiami airport

QUOTE]

At 3:45 into that movie/video the guys landing on 9R sure looks like the new Tamiami airport in its early life......... Still.. great find.. it is nice to relive old moments...
Ps... I lived in the Miami area from 1955 -1980... I remember the Goodyear blimp, the heli's and Chalks seaplane base on Watson Island that is on Mc Arthur causeway..

Don't even get me started on the (serious partying) out at the old blimp base on 152 st.........

 

[alfadog]

At 3:45 into that movie/video the guys landing on 9R sure looks like the new Tamiami airport in its early life......... Still.. great find.. it is nice to relive old moments...
Ps... I lived in the Miami area from 1955 -1980... I remember the Goodyear blimp, the heli's and Chalks seaplane base on Watson Island that is on Mc Arthur causeway..

Don't even get me started on the (serious partying) out at the old blimp base on 152 st.........

You are right again, sir.

I think that is a compilation of footage from a number of old films. The description reads:

Skeet shooting Flying Luscombe Old Tamiami New Tamiami Homestead Airport

As you probably know, the blimp base is now home to the local railroad museum.

http://gcrm.org/

 

[jasc15]

So, given all this, does it really matter whether I call:

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting on 122.1, recieving on Stillwater VOR",

or

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting and recieving on 122.35"

or

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting and recieving on 122.2"?

Won't the last option work in all cases, since 122.2 works everywhere, and just specify Milleville Radio?

 

[JHW]

So, given all this, does it really matter whether I call:

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting on 122.1, recieving on Stillwater VOR",

or

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting and recieving on 122.35"

or

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting and recieving on 122.2"?

Won't the last option work in all cases, since 122.2 works everywhere, and just specify Milleville Radio?

give them a nearby VOR so they know where you are, they may have multiple transmitters on the same frequency

 

[bobmrg]

So, given all this, does it really matter whether I call:

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting on 122.1, recieving on Stillwater VOR",

or

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting and recieving on 122.35"

or

"Millville Radio, N1234A transmitting and recieving on 122.2"?

Won't the last option work in all cases, since 122.2 works everywhere, and just specify Milleville Radio?

With the exception of those rare instances when you transmit on 122.1 and receive on the VOR frequency (duplex), all FSS communications are simplex (transmit and receive on the same frequency). You do not have to say "Transmitting and receiving.....". Just give your location and the frequency you are using; read AIM 4-2-3 for details.

If you do not already have one, get a copy of the Airport/Facility Directory for your area and read the Communications section of the Legend pages.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE

 

[eetrojan]

I think the confusion here is because the VOR you're looking at is also called Riverside. There's no "main" Riverside Radio communication box that I'm aware of on your map. Do you know that there's apparently a VOR co-located with Riverside airport, indicated by the small white dot on the airport runway? That's the box you've pointed at. It's telling you the freq and identifier of the Riverside VOR (just northeast of the Paradise VOR, but no compass rose is drawn), and ALSO telling you that the nearest FSS is Riverside Radio, which you can reach using the frequencies shown.

Does that clear it up a bit? There are three VORs on the image you provided.

Hi Ted, Thanks for your thoughts. I understand about a VOR being co-located with an airport as shown by the little white circle. My question arose due to my instructor's strong implication that the "Riverside" FSS contained local staff who would talk to me when I came in to them via one of the nearby RCOs. I think (underline think) that this is because, at one point in time, the Riverside FSS was locally staffed, and was also co-located at the Riverside airport, along with the Riverside VOR.

I got curious and looked for the Los Angeles TAC from 1994 (the year my first son was born and my PPL run got put on hold). Here's a marked-up excerpt of the same area that shows the communication box for the Riverside VOR in heavy lines. And, on the associated legend, it says "Heavy line box indicates Flight Service Station."

However, in the modern 2013 TAC posted above, the communication box for the Riverside VOR is in thin lines (like all of the remotes), and there's a "[Riverside]" notation below the box. It seems sort of circular, but I assume it's there to inform me that it's important to tell whoever answers that I'm coming in via the Riverside FSS, because they're actually somewhere else.

I suspect that as of now the Paradise VOR and other similar locations are remoted to the Riverside FSS location which, in turn, is remoted to one of the Lockheed-Martin mega-stations.

Horse now beat to a pulp.

 

[dukeblue219]

I got curious and looked for the Los Angeles TAC from 1994 (the year my first son was born and my PPL run got put on hold). Here's a marked-up excerpt of the same area that shows the communication box for the Riverside VOR in heavy lines. And, on the associated legend, it says "Heavy line box indicates Flight Service Station."

That's pretty neat, thanks for posting. I only started in '09 and I've actually searched around for old charts online just to see what they looked like, but so far unsuccessfully. I was unaware of the heavy line feature on the chart that indicated a FSS at the location.

However, in the modern 2013 TAC posted above, the communication box for the Riverside VOR is in thin lines (like all of the remotes), and there's a "[Riverside]" notation below the box. It seems sort of circular, but I assume it's there to inform me that it's important to tell whoever answers that I'm coming in via the Riverside FSS, because they're actually somewhere else.

I'm not sure how it's circular. You have three VORs in the area, with a number of possible frequencies to contact them. In any case you'll call them all "Riverside Radio" and mention which frequency you're using. I assume that it was omitted on the 1994 chart because the FSS was on-site, but now it's just a regular old Riverside VOR, so like any VOR, it needs to specify the name of the nearest FSS, which in this case is coincidentally still named Riverside.

But yes, beating a dead horse and all, I think Bob did a good job of explaining the proper frequency and comm use here. I remember the training material and practice written tests seemed to heavily focus on which radio you're supposed to transmit on, and which you can receive on, and all the possible frequencies, which made it seem far more difficult to talk to FSS than it really is.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

read AIM 4-2-3 for details.

If you do not already have one, get a copy of the Airport/Facility Directory for your area and read the Communications section of the Legend pages.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE

Add Bob Gardner's book, "Say again, Please" to the list

 

[eetrojan]

I'm not sure how it's circular. You have three VORs in the area, with a number of possible frequencies to contact them. In any case you'll call them all "Riverside Radio" and mention which frequency you're using. I assume that it was omitted on the 1994 chart because the FSS was on-site, but now it's just a regular old Riverside VOR, so like any VOR, it needs to specify the name of the nearest FSS, which in this case is coincidentally still named Riverside.

Hi Ted, I'm thinking that it's sort of circular in that sense the FSS entry point associated with the Riverside VOR has a little box on the bottom that suggest to me that my radio call is being remoted to some other location also called Riverside.

As best as I can tell, the folks who actually pickup my call to "Riverside" actually sit in Arizona, or Miami, or wherever, but customize the information for me as if they were in Riverside.