Frozen Battery

Huckster79

Huckster79

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Huckster79
So I had the mechanics shop do an oil change Tuesday, as its just too cold to want to do it myself right now. They said they would do it and take it back to my hanger at the end of their day as they like keeping the hanger door closed with as cold as it is. I stopped by today to plug it in as it looks like tomorow may be nice.

The master switch was on! Dead as King Tut. I took battery out and brought it home to warm up. I texted mechanic, havent' heard back. Is it most assuredly junk now? Once it warms and I charge it how would I know if its junk or not, if its not assured?

Really frustrated, first flyable day in a couple weeks and now I'm likely grounded! uggh. I think I will change my own oil in the cold from here on out!!!

Oh its a Concord RG-35A if that changes anything good or bad.
 
Stewartb said:
Get an AGM (Odyssey). Problems solved.
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That’s the plan if this ones toast... 15 lbs is signifact in a c140!

I understand many/some mechanics view it as minor however the shop that froze mine doesn’t... so if I can get them to buy me a battery I’ll have to find someone to put it in.

Does 337 approval take a long time? As I think he would do it that route...
 
If it appears to take a charge tonight would an autozone test show if I lucked out?
 
Huckster79 said:
If it appears to take a charge tonight would an autozone test show if I lucked out?
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Your mechanics should be able to test it. While you watch!
 
Huckster79 said:
Does 337 approval take a long time? As I think he would do it that route...
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As I understand most batteries that are different from the standard issued on the aircraft, have the STC in the box with the new battery.
When this is the case, it is simply a matter of the A&P to get on a computer and print the 337 take it to the IA for a return to service signature.
this might be the hold up or not.
 
Tom-D said:
As I understand most batteries that are different from the standard issued on the aircraft, have the STC in the box with the new battery.
When this is the case, it is simply a matter of the A&P to get on a computer and print the 337 take it to the IA for a return to service signature.
this might be the hold up or not.
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That would be true of batteries such as the Concorde. It sounds to me like the OP is wanting to use the Odyssey battery that is approved for the PA-18, but as far as I know, there is no approval for the Cessna 140. Hence the need for a field approval...

How long the field approval takes may be affected by a future government shutdown.
 
If the case was noticeably swollen it may well be toast, or have a very short remaining life. How cold was it? (Geeze that's a loaded question)
 
Huckster79 said:
That’s the plan if this ones toast... 15 lbs is signifact in a c140!

I understand many/some mechanics view it as minor however the shop that froze mine doesn’t... so if I can get them to buy me a battery I’ll have to find someone to put it in.

Does 337 approval take a long time? As I think he would do it that route...
Click to expand...

You don't need an approval for a battery even if the mechanic believes it's a major. Tell him to read the opening paragraph of 43.13-2B!
 
Stewartb said:
You don't need an approval for a battery even if the mechanic believes it's a major. Tell him to read the opening paragraph of 43.13-2B!
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But I need his signature correct? If he doesn’t agree I need to find someone who sees it different correct?

A mechanic is no likelier to back down on an interpretation anymore than a pilot, politician or cleric...So I don’t think I’ll change his mind. I wish I could! I just don’t see it happening.

He says if there’s an stc for that on another plane doesn’t that imply it is a major?

So is my best option shopping for one that sees it as minor? As I’m sold on the Odyssy...
 
I’m not being unreasonable asking him to buy the battery?

Though that could help change his mind as the Odyssy looks less than a concord... lol
 
Get a odyssey PC680... They are cheap and really good. Put it in yourself.
If you want to go fly hand prop that bad boy and go!
 
pigpenracing said:
Get a odyssey PC680... They are cheap and really good. Put it in yourself.
If you want to go fly hand prop that bad boy and go!
Click to expand...

Just put it in and put in log with my number and go?
 
Huckster79 said:
If it appears to take a charge tonight would an autozone test show if I lucked out?
Click to expand...
No. Different test. Have them perform a capacity check per the Concorde ICA/MM. That test will tell you the status of the battery. If your mechanic doesn't have the right test equip most aviation part house that sell Concordes have a cap tester and will let you use it or rent it.

Huckster79 said:
He says if there’s an stc for that on another plane doesn’t that imply it is a major?
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Not necessarily. But don't ruin this thread as this topic as been beat to death elsewhere. If you're replacing an existing battery in same place without structural alteration then probably not. If altering structure or relocating battery then it will depend on alterations. There's FAA guidance out there plus AC23-27 if applicable:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_23-27.pdf
 
Huckster79 said:
So I had the mechanics shop do an oil change Tuesday, as its just too cold to want to do it myself right now. They said they would do it and take it back to my hanger at the end of their day as they like keeping the hanger door closed with as cold as it is. I stopped by today to plug it in as it looks like tomorow may be nice.

The master switch was on! Dead as King Tut. I took battery out and brought it home to warm up. I texted mechanic, havent' heard back. Is it most assuredly junk now? Once it warms and I charge it how would I know if its junk or not, if its not assured?

Really frustrated, first flyable day in a couple weeks and now I'm likely grounded! uggh. I think I will change my own oil in the cold from here on out!!!

Oh its a Concord RG-35A if that changes anything good or bad.
Click to expand...

So what is the mechanic doing to pay for the ruined battery. If they say they didn’t leave it on, ask if the do oil changes and return planes to service without a leak check.
 
Stewartb said:
You don't need an approval for a battery even if the mechanic believes it's a major. Tell him to read the opening paragraph of 43.13-2B!
Click to expand...

Bingo! Approved data already exists. Just follow the guidance.
 
Huckster79 said:
Just put it in and put in log with my number and go?
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You’re now an aircraft owner. Read this link. At the very least read the opening paragraph and then chapter 10. IF your IA believes the battery work is a major, this document provides approved data that he can use. There is no field approval required when he uses approved data and notes it properly. He will need to use a form 337 to document the work. In this case the 337 does not require field approval since the data is approved. That’s a common misunderstanding among owners. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 43.13-2B.pdf

STCs are a market tool. If you want to sell an airplane part you need to get an approval to install that part on a specific airplane model. If you want to sell the part and STC for others to install you need a PMA, too. Because one battery box mod is STC’d does not mean you can’t do the same mod to your plane using the AC I linked. You can’t make additional boxes and sell them as airplane parts, though, unless you get an STC and PMA. Somebody will nit pick that analogy but that’s the gist of it.
 
The FAA's requirements for paper on a battery. Goes some thing like this, a lead acid battery is a lead acid battery, pretty much minor maintenance. Brand name's don't mean anything when the battery is the same type.
Any battery that changes the type design of the aircraft (the type not called for, in size, weight, or amperage capacity ) should have approval by some means.

But remember you can't change type design with out approval.
 
Thaw it out and see if it holds a charge.

Years ago I had a '47 Chevy 5 window pickup. I found it in a field and brought it home. It had sat in that field for at least 10 years. I converted it to a 12 volt and got it running. That winter I went to crank it up. Nothing. Lights dead, gauges dead, nothing worked. I went to jump start it and discovered that the battery was a solid chunk of ice. Swollen, sides bulging, totally frozen solid. A few days later I pulled it out thinking it was toast. I connected a battery charger and the next day it still showed 12 volts. I put it back in the truck and ran it for another 3 years.

It's worth a try.
 
I tried... needle on charger will go to charged and a few minutes later jump back to charging state. Mechanic text me that he knows it’s likely junk and will get me a new one. I’ll take some of the info everyone’s shared to see if he will install an Odyssy. If he still won’t ill just ask him for the battery itself s d deal with funding installer... I believe I have a line on someone who does see it as a minor alteration
 
a) it would be reasonable to pay you back for a pro-rated battery. It's a Concorde; how many years old? He should pay for the remaining life or the 'life lost' imo. So how long do most Concorde batteries last? 7 years? If so and yours is 3.5 yrs old, he can make you whole again by paying for 1/2 the cost of new (and installing it, then leaving the master off, lol).

b) If you are going to opt for a more expensy battery, it is not fair to ask for the full price of the change in battery model. Only the pro-rated value of the Concorde.

c) Sure, put in any battery you want; what harm can come of it? lol! Well, just don't go too cheap.
 
I do want to say thank you to everyone, ownership sure brings a whole different set of challenges and required knowledge base, one I don't have yet. I feel "behind the plane" in terms of knowing what I'm doing. I really appreciate you guys always willing to answer questions, and probably ones you have had to many times before. I will say learning to own seems as much to learn as learning to fly itself!

Funny story as part of this that shows that ignorance I'm trying to shed. In taking the battery out I moved the base of the child's seat in back and the ELT was under it and the annual I got at purchase said the battery wasn't due for replacement for a while. Well on the ELT itself there it is staring at me "Exp 12/18" I was really upset after the battery deboggle I was just in a foul mood and got thinking "great what is this going to cost me and I've been flying around with an expired ELT and the annual must have been a pretty pencil whipped one to miss this! uggghh" Im thinking the batteries are likely exorbitantly expensive. So once home I checked and realized I can change it myself but still going to have to buy one of em which I was sure would be $100-$200 that I thought was good for several years... So I was really in a foul mood. I opened it up to see 6 Duracells! lol at myself. The markings on it were incorrect of 12/18, so I wiped those off and while apart will put new Duracells in just for good measure... :)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
a) it would be reasonable to pay you back for a pro-rated battery. It's a Concorde; how many years old? He should pay for the remaining life or the 'life lost' imo. So how long do most Concorde batteries last? 7 years? If so and yours is 3.5 yrs old, he can make you whole again by paying for 1/2 the cost of new (and installing it, then leaving the master off, lol).

b) If you are going to opt for a more expensy battery, it is not fair to ask for the full price of the change in battery model. Only the pro-rated value of the Concorde.

c) Sure, put in any battery you want; what harm can come of it? lol! Well, just don't go too cheap.
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The Odyssey is actually less expensive than the Concorde that is toast. But I don't disagree with what you say...proration would not be unfair... I'm not angry at them for it, I myself made a mistake once :) I'm just glad they are willing to replace it, and they volunteered it, I didn't have to ask...
 
Huckster79 said:
I'm just glad they are willing to replace it, and they volunteered it, I didn't have to ask...
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Hang on to that A+P.
Your good attitude about it will likely be repaid many times over, and his response towards you on this issue will likely see him being paid back by your continued patronage and the good things you say to others about him (I recommend skipping mention of the battery if you really want to give him a plug - instead say 'his is as honest as the day is long')
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Hang on to that A+P.
Your good attitude about it will likely be repaid many times over, and his response towards you on this issue will likely see him being paid back by your continued patronage and the good things you say to others about him (I recommend skipping mention of the battery if you really want to give him a plug - instead say 'his is as honest as the day is long')
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Thank You and I agree... I was a bit more miffed at first but got over it. Yea no sense mentioning it to prospective customers of his is specificity, like you say just that he is honest and takes care of his customers.

I missed before in reading the maintenance I can do that I can replace the batter, I was thinking I could only service it. With it on that list I think I will get the Odyssey and hook her up and fly off!
 
Also; check with EnerSys tech help regarding re-setting ship's charging voltage for your specific Odyssey battery, when I switched last year they wanted 14.5-15.0v on my pair of series-mounted PC680's.

Oh, and you need to set this voltage 'as seen by the battery'. (Most have a voltage difference between the panel or cig lighter plug and the battery terminals. Mine was a 0.7v difference so I look for 29.3v on my panel to know I am getting 30v on my Odysseys). This is a bit higher than Gill calls for and probably Concorde; and EnerSys says this 'bit' makes a large difference in their batterys' lives.
 
14.4 has worked for my plane for 22 years. I'm on my second PC625. The first one still works but I changed it after 13 just to stay ahead of things.
 
how does one adjust the voltage to the battery?
 
Huckster79 said:
how does one adjust the voltage to the battery?
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Depends on which VR you have. Mine is a BCSpecialities - has a tiny slot screw under a plastic cap. BCS gives you the number of turns per volt. I'm pretty sure Zef has something similar. And those old Delco's - I've only heard others talk about them... a setting for points spring tension?
 
A frozen battery should be OK after a warm room and a charge, if it was good before it was run flat. You can only do that once or twice, though...
 
Usually when you run an AGM battery flat they are toast. If the electrolyte was fully expended on discharge and the resulting water actually froze it has a high likelihood of its expansion upon freezing warping the plates and causing shorts. You can but try to thaw and recharge but don't get your hopes up. If you catch a discharged AGM within a day or two they can be mostly resuscitated, but may require a few charging tricks to get them to accept a charge properly. Only worked for me once.
 
Well I stopped to talk to him about getting an Odyssey, he already had a Concorde sitting out ready to put in it... I thought "You know for him being willing to replace it without me brining it up, and him not brining up prorating it, I'm going to thank him for being stand up guy, let him toss the Concorde in, and when I get around to it I'll do the Odyssey down the road"

He didn't even want to look at the old one, or give it a try or test, he said "In those temps (had been as low as 10 F) and dead its junk" They made a mistake, I could have made, he made it right... I want the Odyssey but can deal with that down the road... Means a lot to me he manned right up offering the replacement before I had to ask...
 
You can bring a totally dead AGM battery back if you have the right charger-booster. You may cook one or two learning how but it can be done.
 
Stewartb said:
You can bring a totally dead AGM battery back if you have the right charger-booster. You may cook one or two learning how but it can be done.
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Even froze? My guy figured played were cracked n such as it was dead for a few days as low as 10...

What type of booster? I mean nothing to lose on this one sitting on my kitchen floor right now...
 
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