Frost question

Nobody advocates it. A few of us have commented that it's done and provided pireps. What's interesting is the opposition, almost certainly with lack of frost experience, quotes the FAA with holy roller exhuberance. But wait a few days and they'll find some FAA letter to complain about and will bash the FAA saying they're not happy until you're unhappy. Ironic. Yep, pilots are odd.
 
I would never advocate for flying with frost on your wings, I'm not sure I am buying the FAA statement of 30% higher stall speed. I have had some airplanes with paint jobs that were rougher than any frost I've seen that still flew book numbers. That said, I would still remove any containment as the time isn't worth the risk.
Unless you’re looking at something else, the quote posted earlier said
can reduce wing lift by as much as 30% and increase drag by 40%.
Stall speed isn’t addressed.

It also says “up to”...the effect will vary tremendously from one aircraft type to another. Like you, I’ve flown airplanes where I’m sure the effect of frost would be quite minimal, and certainly wouldn’t pose a problem at light weights...but like you, I’m going to remove contaminants.
 
I guess the same way that the ground radiates heat and becomes colder than the air above it?

Just last week frost formed on the upper surfaces of my plane (and all the cars in the parking lot) and the AWOS was reporting a temperature of 4°C. This was only an hour after sunset.

Still haven't seen anything that convinces me frost forms if air temp isn't 32 or below. One thing to consider is that temp sensors are typically about 5 feet above the surface and below can be colder, awos is probably higher. But the theory that "heat radiates or convects" from a wing surface so that it gets colder than the ambient air doesn't happen, that would make air conditioning very inexpensive and efficient. Again, it could be a case where the wing was colder inside a hanger, then is pulled into warmer, moist air. The wing is still below freezing and frost forms. But a wing, sitting outside all night in 33 degree air isn't going to spontaneously form frost due to radiation.
 
Nobody advocates it. A few of us have commented that it's done and provided pireps. What's interesting is the opposition, almost certainly with lack of frost experience, quotes the FAA with holy roller exhuberance. But wait a few days and they'll find some FAA letter to complain about and will bash the FAA saying they're not happy until you're unhappy. Ironic. Yep, pilots are odd.

I have plenty of frost experience, believe me, I just make sure it's removed from my airplane before I'll fly it. The potential penalty is too great to not heed the don't fly a frost airplane for me. YMMV, I hope it never bites you in the butt.
 
But the theory that "heat radiates or convects" from a wing surface so that it gets colder than the ambient air doesn't happen

Um no, think about that for a second. Why does the ground get colder at night? The ground gets colder first. It's not cooled by the air. The FAA even has a written test question about it causing a surface-based temperature inversion. Inversion meaning air is warmer than the ground. How does that happen? Radiation on clear calm nights. Same thing with a wing.

One thing to consider is that temp sensors are typically about 5 feet above the surface and below can be colder, awos is probably higher.

Why is it colder at the surface than 5 feet up?
 
Still haven't seen anything that convinces me frost forms if air temp isn't 32 or below. One thing to consider is that temp sensors are typically about 5 feet above the surface and below can be colder, awos is probably higher. But the theory that "heat radiates or convects" from a wing surface so that it gets colder than the ambient air doesn't happen, that would make air conditioning very inexpensive and efficient. Again, it could be a case where the wing was colder inside a hanger, then is pulled into warmer, moist air. The wing is still below freezing and frost forms. But a wing, sitting outside all night in 33 degree air isn't going to spontaneously form frost due to radiation.

What you believe or do not believe does not change the facts. There IS such a thing as radiative cooling that can drop a surface's temperature below ambient, and it's what causes frost. All we need is a clear sky and a small temp/dewpoint spread near freezing. It's the ONLY thing that can explain frost forming at temps slightly above freezing and it's the only thing that explains why the wing doesn't accumulate frost in flight in exactly the same environmental conditions that exist on the ground: a moving wing absorbs heat from the surrounding air due to conduction, while a wing parked in still air can form a thin boundary layer of cooler air above the metal as it radiates its heat into space, and frost can form. It won't form if the wind on the ground is strong enough. And it forms only on top because the top is what is exposed to the clear sky and space beyond; the lower surfaces are not, and any heat they radiate is reflected back by the ground. And you often see frost-free lines along rivet lines where the internal structure is keeping those areas warm enough to prevent frosting.

The science is nothing new or hard to understand. It's well-understood and I'm sure plenty of researchers have installed temp sensors in appropriate places to measure it--like on the surface of the metal and in the air a foot or two above it and found that difference.

Read this thing again: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwip-9Df3pjfAhXB24MKHQHFADgQFjABegQIBxAC&url=http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/External%20Meetings/Specialist%20Subject/Intl%20Winter%20Ops%20Conference%20J%20Horrigan%20presenation%20Oct%202011.pdf&usg=AOvVaw23cLpJ3MmsPxhTyoJQUdUW
 
What you believe or do not believe does not change the facts. There IS such a thing as radiative cooling that can drop a surface's temperature below ambient, and it's what causes frost. All we need is a clear sky and a small temp/dewpoint spread near freezing. It's the ONLY thing that can explain frost forming at temps slightly above freezing and it's the only thing that explains why the wing doesn't accumulate frost in flight in exactly the same environmental conditions that exist on the ground: a moving wing absorbs heat from the surrounding air due to conduction, while a wing parked in still air can form a thin boundary layer of cooler air above the metal as it radiates its heat into space, and frost can form. It won't form if the wind on the ground is strong enough. And it forms only on top because the top is what is exposed to the clear sky and space beyond; the lower surfaces are not, and any heat they radiate is reflected back by the ground. And you often see frost-free lines along rivet lines where the internal structure is keeping those areas warm enough to prevent frosting.

The science is nothing new or hard to understand. It's well-understood and I'm sure plenty of researchers have installed temp sensors in appropriate places to measure it--like on the surface of the metal and in the air a foot or two above it and found that difference.

Read this thing again: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwip-9Df3pjfAhXB24MKHQHFADgQFjABegQIBxAC&url=http://www.ukfsc.co.uk/files/External%20Meetings/Specialist%20Subject/Intl%20Winter%20Ops%20Conference%20J%20Horrigan%20presenation%20Oct%202011.pdf&usg=AOvVaw23cLpJ3MmsPxhTyoJQUdUW

And I put that right back to you, "What you believe or do not believe does not change the facts." . I read your link and it is as clear as mud, I don't think they are saying what you think they are saying, but would prefer you to point where you think they are saying that surface will cool to temp lower than the ambient air. You're convinced, I'm not, convince me. I do have a little background in this, heat transfer, but it's been a long time.
 
And I put that right back to you, "What you believe or do not believe does not change the facts." . I read your link and it is as clear as mud, I don't think they are saying what you think they are saying, but would prefer you to point where you think they are saying that surface will cool to temp lower than the ambient air. You're convinced, I'm not, convince me. I do have a little background in this, heat transfer, but it's been a long time.
Sigh. Try this, then: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frost-result-radiational-cooling-arjen-piest
 
I read your link and it is as clear as mud, I don't think they are saying what you think they are saying, but would prefer you to point where you think they are saying that surface will cool to temp lower than the ambient air.

You said yourself it might be warmer at 5 feet than right near the ground. Why?
 
You said yourself it might be warmer at 5 feet than right near the ground. Why?
I think the question is, why would this additional cooling apply to airplanes as well as the ground? Someone said it’s due to evaporation, but refuses to say what’s evaporating off the airplane.
 
I think the question is, why would this additional cooling apply to airplanes as well as the ground? Someone said it’s due to evaporation, but refuses to say what’s evaporating off the airplane.
It does not involve evaporative cooling. Read the links I posted.
 
I think the question is, why would this additional cooling apply to airplanes as well as the ground? Someone said it’s due to evaporation, but refuses to say what’s evaporating off the airplane.

Why wouldn't it?
 
I did...they don’t say anything about airplanes.
From that last link https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frost-result-radiational-cooling-arjen-piest

...we read:

The process described above is also effecting any objects out in the open. Especially objects with less ability to hold heat (heat capacity), e.g. your car windows/roof, bridges or aircraft wings. This radiational cooling process is strongest during the wintertime and when skies are clear, winds are below 7 knots and the air is dry. When these objects send back their radiation they lose heat and eventually will cool down to the frost point (if the energy balance is negative long/strong enough). The frost point is the point where moisture will deposit as (hoar)frost to the object. The frost point is always equal or above the dew point temperature. This can occur with air temperature well above 0º Celsius (or 32º F) due to the fact that low mass objects cool down (much) faster than the air surrounding it....

...Those of you working in winter operations will know that a 3º difference between e.g. aircraft wing and outside air temperature (OAT) is common during clear nights. During research however the data gave new insights on the differences between wing and OAT. On several occasions a difference up to 8º(!) was measured between the wing and OAT. Another case showed a 3º Celsius drop in merely 20 minutes(!) after the skies cleared after a passing cold front.
 
Aside from the pizzing match and the other thread around carb ice and crash, decision made, I am sticking to my personal minimums of no flight when the spread is lass than 5 until I have a better understanding of this
 
From that last link https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frost-result-radiational-cooling-arjen-piest

...we read:

The process described above is also effecting any objects out in the open. Especially objects with less ability to hold heat (heat capacity), e.g. your car windows/roof, bridges or aircraft wings. This radiational cooling process is strongest during the wintertime and when skies are clear, winds are below 7 knots and the air is dry. When these objects send back their radiation they lose heat and eventually will cool down to the frost point (if the energy balance is negative long/strong enough). The frost point is the point where moisture will deposit as (hoar)frost to the object. The frost point is always equal or above the dew point temperature. This can occur with air temperature well above 0º Celsius (or 32º F) due to the fact that low mass objects cool down (much) faster than the air surrounding it....

...Those of you working in winter operations will know that a 3º difference between e.g. aircraft wing and outside air temperature (OAT) is common during clear nights. During research however the data gave new insights on the differences between wing and OAT. On several occasions a difference up to 8º(!) was measured between the wing and OAT. Another case showed a 3º Celsius drop in merely 20 minutes(!) after the skies cleared after a passing cold front.
Cool read! I now finally understand why we got 2 inches of hoar frost on the RJ in central Mexico in the winter even though it was 34 degrees out. That stuff grew while looking at it, even with the sun bearing down on it. Just for a few minutes. Then it was a waterfall by the time we fired up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
Went flying this Sunday. Beautiful day but there was frost. As usual the FBO cleared off the wings and rudder and control surfaces but missed the front of the tail. I had the guy come back and clear it off but I was just wondering if this was actually required or was I being overly cautious? Obviously frost on a control surface or wings is a no go but the front of the tail had me confused. My concern was the frost may disrupt the air flow over the tail which could lead to less rudder authority but I’m honestly not sure.

This is flying in a 172.
This thread has veered a bit....

But, in most transport category aircraft there is a diagram showing what needs to be deiced, anticed, and an explanation of what needs to be Frost free.

I don’t think that’s available for most light GA aircraft, as they are not Fiki and have not gone through the flight testing.
IMO, that means your AC must be 100% clean from snow, ice, and frost.
 
Aside from the pizzing match and the other thread around carb ice and crash, decision made, I am sticking to my personal minimums of no flight when the spread is lass than 5 until I have a better understanding of this

Personal minimums are just that— up to you— but this is really a crazy one to have. You mean to tell me you’d cancel a flight on a clear sky and a million mile visibility day if you saw the metar had temp 5 dewpoint 2??? This happens all the time around me( Northeast) and I’ve flown without incident and so have millions of other planes.

I’m not advocating for not being cautious but I really think you are practically never going to fly if you have such personal minimums.
 
Instead of paying attention to the spread, pay attention to the trend.
 
Personal minimums are just that— up to you— but this is really a crazy one to have. You mean to tell me you’d cancel a flight on a clear sky and a million mile visibility day if you saw the metar had temp 5 dewpoint 2??? This happens all the time around me( Northeast) and I’ve flown without incident and so have millions of other planes.

I’m not advocating for not being cautious but I really think you are practically never going to fly if you have such personal minimums.

I haven’t seen a spread of 2 or 3 and clear and a million visibility yet. If it’s cold and dry, I fly, but when the temp is hovering around freezing with a low spread, I think I am staying on the ground . As a low time VFR pilot may be I am overthinking this, but I just don’t know weather enough to interpret when it’s gonna take a dump on me. Now if it’s sunny, like right around sunrise I know its going to warm up and the spread will increase, same conditions under a cloud cover, I am not so sure
 
As I type this from central TX the temp and dewpoint are exactly the same and RH is reported as 100%. It's clear and lovely outside. Looking outside is my favorite weather tool.
 
I haven’t seen a spread of 2 or 3 and clear and a million visibility yet. If it’s cold and dry, I fly, but when the temp is hovering around freezing with a low spread, I think I am staying on the ground . As a low time VFR pilot may be I am overthinking this, but I just don’t know weather enough to interpret when it’s gonna take a dump on me. Now if it’s sunny, like right around sunrise I know its going to warm up and the spread will increase, same conditions under a cloud cover, I am not so sure
Just look at your airplane before you fly it. If there is frost on it, remove it, then fly. If there is no frost, fly. Situations where the frost flashes on your airplane are rare and usually involve situations where there has been a drastic (quick) weather change from very cold air to warmer, moist air. The airplane is cold soaked in a hanger, or on the ramp and when the warm air hits it frost forms. Because the air is warm, the frost usually doesn't last that long, if it ever happens while you are taxiing, stop and remove it before you take off, but I doubt you will ever run into that. Besides, if the spread is real low, many times the ceiling will be the deciding factor for a vfr pilot. There are enough real things to be concerned about without worrying about this.
 
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As I type this from central TX the temp and dewpoint are exactly the same and RH is reported as 100%. It's clear and lovely outside. Looking outside is my favorite weather tool.

What’s the temp? I really need to understand this better. From what I know, with a low spread the chances of water particles in the air freezing is higher especially with near freezing temp
 
Hmm. If I fly into my cabin it isn't unusual to be in warm temps aloft and see very cold temps on the ground. Sometimes I can watch frost form on the plane right after I land.

Another interesting condition is ground fog. That's common where cold air settles into low creek bottoms and lakes. Especially common when temps are well below zero. It makes for some interesting landings since it's usually over a white background and is hard to detect until you're in it.
 
Hmm. If I fly into my cabin it isn't unusual to be in warm temps aloft and see very cold temps on the ground. Sometimes I can watch frost form on the plane right after I land.

Another interesting condition is ground fog. That's common where cold air settles into low creek bottoms and lakes. Especially common when temps are well below zero. It makes for some interesting landings since it's usually over a white background and is hard to detect until you're in it.

That's another good point, the flow of air over your airplane will usually sublimate frost faster than it can form while flying.
 
I would never advocate for flying with frost on your wings, I'm not sure I am buying the FAA statement of 30% higher stall speed. I have had some airplanes with paint jobs that were rougher than any frost I've seen that still flew book numbers. That said, I would still remove any containment as the time isn't worth the risk.
"Research results have shown that fine particles of frost or ice, the size of a grain of table salt and distributed as sparsely as one per square centimeter over an airplane wing's upper surface can destroy enough lift to prevent that airplane from taking off."
 
And I put that right back to you, "What you believe or do not believe does not change the facts." . I read your link and it is as clear as mud, I don't think they are saying what you think they are saying, but would prefer you to point where you think they are saying that surface will cool to temp lower than the ambient air. You're convinced, I'm not, convince me. I do have a little background in this, heat transfer, but it's been a long time.
So you are saying that a body receiving radiation (say, your car hood) cannot get above ambient air temperature? Both situations (body greater than or lower than ambient air temperature) are the norm. Radiation works both ways.
 
So you are saying that a body receiving radiation (say, your car hood) cannot get above ambient air temperature? Both situations (body greater than or lower than ambient air temperature) are the norm. Radiation works both ways.

The sun is a potent energy source so the question is a little pointless, we are talking about passive cooling. I've read the links supplied and am still not convinced. The articles talk about general radiational cooling which refers to conditions that happen on a cloudless, windless night with out that big potent heat source, the sun, in the sky. They correctly talk about radiational cooling, and one, I believe it was written by a business major selling deicing services, talks, correctly, about low mass items cooling faster than higher mass items. He then calls a wing a "low mass" item, which I disagree with. A wing, with it's structure and 30, 40 or 50 gallons of fuel in it has a pretty significant mass to it, especially compared to a blade of grass, or a leaf, which truly have low mass. But here is the issue, low mass items will be very responsive to temp differences. In other words, if a low mass item is radiating heat to the air around it, it will continue until the low mass items trends colder than the air around it, at this point the low mass will conduct heat from the air to reach equilibrium with the air. As the air cools, the low mass item will cool, but that goes against the theory that ambient air is warmer than the mass when frost forms. The other issues I have with the theory that "frost can form when the ambient air is a couple degrees above freezing" is when you consider the latent heat of the water forming the frost. The energy exchange required to form ice is pretty substantial.

That's where I stand on this, but I'm still open to having my mind changed. And Kenny, this last comment is not directed at you, but if someone wants to respond by telling me I need to have faith in and understand science about something that is well understood, I will ignore your comment. If it is well understood then you should be able to easily explain it in format that will convince me, or we can have a meaningful discussion as to why I disagree. Just posting a link and telling me to read it is...…… never mind.
 
The sun is a potent energy source so the question is a little pointless, we are talking about passive cooling. I've read the links supplied and am still not convinced. The articles talk about general radiational cooling which refers to conditions that happen on a cloudless, windless night with out that big potent heat source, the sun, in the sky. They correctly talk about radiational cooling, and one, I believe it was written by a business major selling deicing services, talks, correctly, about low mass items cooling faster than higher mass items. He then calls a wing a "low mass" item, which I disagree with. A wing, with it's structure and 30, 40 or 50 gallons of fuel in it has a pretty significant mass to it, especially compared to a blade of grass, or a leaf, which truly have low mass. But here is the issue, low mass items will be very responsive to temp differences. In other words, if a low mass item is radiating heat to the air around it, it will continue until the low mass items trends colder than the air around it, at this point the low mass will conduct heat from the air to reach equilibrium with the air. As the air cools, the low mass item will cool, but that goes against the theory that ambient air is warmer than the mass when frost forms. The other issues I have with the theory that "frost can form when the ambient air is a couple degrees above freezing" is when you consider the latent heat of the water forming the frost. The energy exchange required to form ice is pretty substantial.

That's where I stand on this, but I'm still open to having my mind changed. And Kenny, this last comment is not directed at you, but if someone wants to respond by telling me I need to have faith in and understand science about something that is well understood, I will ignore your comment. If it is well understood then you should be able to easily explain it in format that will convince me, or we can have a meaningful discussion as to why I disagree. Just posting a link and telling me to read it is...…… never mind.
At this point I realize that you are trolling.
 
Radiant heat transfer is something that is not well understood by Joe Sixpack much less by those of us who have taken Thermodynamics (pre-Sputnik here). Heat transfer by radiant effects was something that was in the back of the Thermo book back then and was talked about for only a hour or two in the course I took. But the numbers for it are impressive.

Everything radiates to everything else until there is a balance. The radiant heat transfer goes as the fourth power of the absolute temperature. Space is very very cold - like only a few degrees absolute, and we rely on convection from our atmosphere to bring our skin temperatures back to reasonable values.
 
Radiant heat transfer is something that is not well understood by Joe Sixpack much less by those of us who have taken Thermodynamics (pre-Sputnik here). Heat transfer by radiant effects was something that was in the back of the Thermo book back then and was talked about for only a hour or two in the course I took. But the numbers for it are impressive.

Everything radiates to everything else until there is a balance. The radiant heat transfer goes as the fourth power of the absolute temperature. Space is very very cold - like only a few degrees absolute, and we rely on convection from our atmosphere to bring our skin temperatures back to reasonable values.

So that's pretty much where I am coming from, a gross delta in temperature between the wing and the surrounding air is pretty unlikely, I suppose it could happen, but the wing must be considered as part of a larger system, the wing does not exist in a vacuum, it has a lot of mass and it's temperature change is definitely damped by the air surrounding it, now if the air is cold, then it will give up its heat to the atmosphere at what its rate is until equilibrium is obtained, absent the sun. Add in things like latent heat considerations and phase transitions makes you realize that a wing must radiate a tremendous amount of energy into air to cause frost to form from air above 32 degrees, while it is in turn conducting heat from the warmer air.... it's a stretch in my mind. And really no one cares.

My concern here is when people take this stuff seriously and start worrying about flying because due to these theories frost will flash onto your wings during the take off roll because it's cold and the dew point close to the ambient temperature. It's very unlikely to happen. I'm more concerned about fog forming if that's the case and it's late in the day.
 
I haven’t seen a spread of 2 or 3 and clear and a million visibility yet. If it’s cold and dry, I fly, but when the temp is hovering around freezing with a low spread, I think I am staying on the ground . As a low time VFR pilot may be I am overthinking this, but I just don’t know weather enough to interpret when it’s gonna take a dump on me. Now if it’s sunny, like right around sunrise I know its going to warm up and the spread will increase, same conditions under a cloud cover, I am not so sure

I’m about a 400 hour private pilot so far from an expert. You are right to be cautious but being overly cautious and setting personal minimums can actually limit your progression. I was pretty weather shy when I first started myself. Gradually I expanded my limitations and learned a heck of a lot by doing so. Most of mine had to do with wind and visibility and cloud cover because that’s what will kill you. Saying you won’t fly because the tempautre and dew point are close together is just a textbook based reason not to fly— meaning, because you learned it in a text book you will blindly follow that. I’ll put it this way, next time you want to fly and the temp and dew point tell you not to( based on your minimums) go to the plane, take off and fly around locally. Slowly build up your comfort levels( sure don’t take a 400 mile cross country) and I would imagine you will see how the plane still flys the same and you got to experience flight that day!
 
What’s the temp? I really need to understand this better. From what I know, with a low spread the chances of water particles in the air freezing is higher especially with near freezing temp

I think you have some confusion. Close spreads mean the air is very saturated with moisture and you are likely to see cloud formation that may be close to the ground( since the spread is monitored and recorded by ground based systems)

With that said, flying through moist air is not entirely a recipe for “water particles” to freeze to the plane. Think of the amount of particles needed to actually make a difference?!!

Any time you go flying in cold weather you need to avoid liquid( water mostly) accumulating on the plane and then climbing to altitudes where the air is below freezing. That could/ will result in freezing to the airplane! My flight instructor once told me that a common issue with 172’s is pilots taxi through puddles on the ground, the water gets into the breaks and break pads and then, freezes when the plane is in cruise and may not melt before landing causing brake failure and or irregular breaking and possible ground flips! He said to try and avoid puddles( not snow) because the water freezes. Snow is not idle but again, because it is already frozen, it has less chance of sticking to the plane and needs to melt first before becoming liquid.

Close dew point and temp spreads, as far as I know, won’t cause a greater likelihood of something freezing to the plane but it may indicate that you will have a harder time avoiding clouds( which are moisture) and then therefore, if you fly into said clouds, the plane could get water on it and start to freeze up.

I’m hoping someone with more knowledge will tie up the lose ends here.
 
I think you have some confusion. Close spreads mean the air is very saturated with moisture and you are likely to see cloud formation that may be close to the ground( since the spread is monitored and recorded by ground based systems)

With that said, flying through moist air is not entirely a recipe for “water particles” to freeze to the plane. Think of the amount of particles needed to actually make a difference?!!

Any time you go flying in cold weather you need to avoid liquid( water mostly) accumulating on the plane and then climbing to altitudes where the air is below freezing. That could/ will result in freezing to the airplane! My flight instructor once told me that a common issue with 172’s is pilots taxi through puddles on the ground, the water gets into the breaks and break pads and then, freezes when the plane is in cruise and may not melt before landing causing brake failure and or irregular breaking and possible ground flips! He said to try and avoid puddles( not snow) because the water freezes. Snow is not idle but again, because it is already frozen, it has less chance of sticking to the plane and needs to melt first before becoming liquid.

Close dew point and temp spreads, as far as I know, won’t cause a greater likelihood of something freezing to the plane but it may indicate that you will have a harder time avoiding clouds( which are moisture) and then therefore, if you fly into said clouds, the plane could get water on it and start to freeze up.

I’m hoping someone with more knowledge will tie up the lose ends here.

Makes sense and thanks for the write up, you are right , I am the overcautious type and it’s been a limiting factor in my training and past PPL. last winter I flew quite a lot, it was bitter cold, but so cold that there is no cloud formation and larger spread, thins winter is wet as heck... like this week is near freezing temp and mist, or very low spreads. Some of these personal minimums were written down with my primary CFI right before check ride and I haven’t updated them in a while, it’s time to get out there and learn, but sure as heck, would love to know more. Snow is already crystallized and I have flown through light snow, apart from visibility getting down, it mostly doesn’t stick, again very light snow. Right now my biggest limitation is visibility and spread, and of course ceiling. Wind is a part of life here.
 
Makes sense and thanks for the write up, you are right , I am the overcautious type and it’s been a limiting factor in my training and past PPL. last winter I flew quite a lot, it was bitter cold, but so cold that there is no cloud formation and larger spread, thins winter is wet as heck... like this week is near freezing temp and mist, or very low spreads. Some of these personal minimums were written down with my primary CFI right before check ride and I haven’t updated them in a while, it’s time to get out there and learn, but sure as heck, would love to know more. Snow is already crystallized and I have flown through light snow, apart from visibility getting down, it mostly doesn’t stick, again very light snow. Right now my biggest limitation is visibility and spread, and of course ceiling. Wind is a part of life here.

Happy to help! Glad you are going to slowly expand your limitations. Don’t take risks but definitely expand!
 
When I was contemplating buying a Sky Arrow years ago, I came across a fatal accident out of Placerville CA. N14XL, augered in at the end of the runway due to frost on the aircraft. The pilot flew to work everyday and guess, no one will ever know, got complacent and didn’t do a good pre flight. It was one of the only serious fatal in the type.

So yeah, the OP was correct in having that frost removed. Fly Safe!
 
If you're not flying much over the winter, and need something to do, buy and study this book:

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I had one around here somewhere but can't find it. I'm sure it had a section on frost formation as well as airframe icing.

Interesting stuff. Temp and dewpoint spreads can predict the cloud base altitudes. The temperature drop with altitude is normally about 2°C per thousand feet, so if the spread is 6°C the cloud bases will be at 3000' AGL.

There is an awful lot of this sort of stuff that should be covered in Commercial ground school. There's lots that should be included in PPL groundschool too, but isn't. And carb ice is woefully lacking in emphasis in all groundschools.
 
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