Free CFI

[James331]

Unwritten rule, yes.

And you get what you pay for, 5 bucks and a beer say that dude was probably a crap CFI anyway.

If I needed to build time quick, I could get just as many hours being a professional (see paid) CFI, infact probably more as most folks with enough money to get their PPL didn't get that money from being stupid, and knowing that you get what you pay for goes a long ways, plus the big expense is the aircraft rental and having a crap CFI, even for free, ends up being more expensive than paying $50hr for a quality instructor.

 

[exncsurfer]

Unwritten rule, yes.

And you get what you pay for, 5 bucks and a beer say that dude was probably a crap CFI anyway.

If I needed to build time quick, I could get just as many hours being a professional (see paid) CFI, infact probably more as most folks with enough money to get their PPL didn't get that money from being stupid, and knowing that you get what you pay for goes a long ways, plus the big expense is the aircraft rental and having a crap CFI, even for free, ends up being more expensive than paying $50hr for a quality instructor.

Well, sometimes you don't get what you pay for, you can get a crap CFI for $50/hour too. I don't think the rate charged is proportional to the quality of the CFI.

 

[mscard88]

Sorry guys never meant to undercut or disrespect the current CFI's who work hard every day. I knew I would be running the risk of people taking this thread the wrong way but It seem like a good idea at the time. I graduated from a part 141 school in the US using my GiBill since I was active duty Airforce C-17 loadmaster. I have very low time as a PIC because i graduated with pretty much the minimums for each of my ratings. After school I instructed at a part 141 school for only about 40 hours when I got invited to fly in Mexico. In Mexico like many other countries you can fly an RJ with only a commercial license, (it used to be like that here in the states). Now I have over 1300 tt but only 190 PIC, I am not going to get any PIC time until I upgrade to captain here, which could happen within a few months the problem is that I would have to sign a 2 year contract for the training and I don't want to stay here that long. Since I have some time off in November it seemed like a good idea to try, I only have 2 weeks off and It would be extremely hard to find a job for only 2 weeks.

Any ways disregard my offer, I will figure something else.

Man the regionals in the states are desperate for fresh meat in the seat. Some have quick upgrades to Capt too (have heard like 6 months to a year), and a couple have flow programs to their major partner. Check out airline pilot forums for info. http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/

 

[James331]

Well, sometimes you don't get what you pay for, you can get a crap CFI for $50/hour too. I don't think the rate charged is proportional to the quality of the CFI.

Perhaps, however I've never seen a CFI worth two chits who didn't charge.

There's also free food in the dumpster, some of it may be good, but you won't see me or mine eating out of the trash.

 

[mscard88]

There's also free food in the dumpster, some of it may be good, but you won't see me or mine eating out of the trash.

Yeah you can get arrested for dumpster diving too. That's how they caught this guy. Even hundreds of FBI agents couldn't find him for years I think.

 

[Cooter]

Perhaps, however I've never seen a CFI worth two chits who didn't charge.

There's also free food in the dumpster, some of it may be good, but you won't see me or mine eating out of the trash.

Pharmaceutical salespeople often cater lunch to doctors and offices. AND, they often offer free samples of their product. Would you classify that as dumpster diving? I personally wouldn't want to have to sell myself or my product that way, but that's the way they do it and I wouldn't classify them as low-lifes. You are ignoring the obvious big picture and stretching analogies to make your point. Ok, so there are some dirt bag CFIs out there that give others a bad name. That happens in every profession and it's just the way the world is. You are oversimplifying it by only looking at the rate charged as if somehow that is the sole indicator of value. Frankly it is just a simple minded argument and wont stand up to scrutiny. The OP didn't say he couldn't find work so therefore he was going to offer up his services for free and hope someone was cheap enough to take him up on it. He saw it as an opportunity to improve his job situation and was willing to accept a trade-off because of a greater gain in mind. Everyone has there own way of looking at circumstances, but yours comes across as arbitrary and ungrounded and you seem to have an eagerness to impose it on others. Tell me a little more about this unwritten obligation, I obviously am not familiar with it?

 

[James331]

Pharmaceutical salespeople often cater lunch to doctors and offices. AND, they often offer free samples of their product. Would you classify that as dumpster diving? I personally wouldn't want to have to sell myself or my product that way, but that's the way they do it and I wouldn't classify them as low-lifes. You are ignoring the obvious big picture and stretching analogies to make your point. Ok, so there are some dirt bag CFIs out there that give others a bad name. That happens in every profession and it's just the way the world is. You are oversimplifying it by only looking at the rate charged as if somehow that is the sole indicator of value. Frankly it is just a simple minded argument and wont stand up to scrutiny. The OP didn't say he couldn't find work so therefore he was going to offer up his services for free and hope someone was cheap enough to take him up on it. He saw it as an opportunity to improve his job situation and was willing to accept a trade-off because of a greater gain in mind. Everyone has there own way of looking at circumstances, but yours comes across as arbitrary and ungrounded and you seem to have an eagerness to impose it on others. Tell me a little more about this unwritten obligation, I obviously am not familiar with it?

I'm not selling drugs. Closest to that I get is a 20min $99 intro flight.

Do you make your living as a CFI or private sector pilot?

 

[Cooter]

I am a CFI and instruct part time. The money is not significant to me and I choose to charge a lower rate than some other CFIs in the area. I am also very selective in who I take on as a student and turn many away. The students I currently have chose me over others in the area because of my experience, not because of my rate. I want people to have the opportunity to fly and money is often the deciding factor on whether they are able to or not, I want to make it as affordable as possible. That has no impact of the quality of instruction that I give, I teach because I enjoy it. I scraped by little by little to get my ratings and always appreciated opportunities to save money. It made a big difference at the time and I like to offer that to others of my choosing. I would like to know what you think I owe other CFIs?

Basic instructing to me, is much like other entry level jobs. If I could provide the quality of life that I want for my family I would, at least for a time, just instruct. I enjoy it. I also enjoy lots of other things that don't pay well and I have chosen to pass them up and work instead to provide for my family not just my own satisfaction. I haven't voiced any judgments on what I think of pilot pay or CFI pay as a whole. You and I would probably agree on that. I am simply challenging your standing in imposing your opinions on others.

 

[ifly4fun]

I'm not selling drugs. Closest to that I get is a 20min $99 intro flight.

Do you make your living as a CFI or private sector pilot?

And we're not looking for surgeons. So why keep drawing vague analogies to poorly attempt to a make a point?

 

[old cfi]

Throw me into the "cheap CFI" bag, too. When my instrument students would pass their practical they had a standing offer from me that at any time they felt they needed a refresher or safety pilot to remain PROFICIENT call me and I would fly with them for free. A lot of people helped me along my trail -- just paying it forward.
I'm not patting myself on the back by doing this. They share the same airspace I do and I'd rather have a competent pilot up there than, well you know! And I totally agree -- the amount a CFI charges has absolutely nothing to do with their skill level or teaching ability.

 

[Dave Theisen]

And I hope you guys are charging those Young Eagles, no way should those kids be getting a free ride!

 

[stapler101]

Wow! Why are some of you deciding that because the poster has limited hours that he must be no good? Did you "seasoned CFI's" start out with hundreds of hours or did you too start out with no hours?
As for as instructing for free, does one plumber who charges $10 for a job that another charges $50 lower the professional status of plumbers?

 

[James331]

Wow! Why are some of you deciding that because the poster has limited hours that he must be no good? Did you "seasoned CFI's" start out with hundreds of hours or did you too start out with no hours?
As for as instructing for free, does one plumber who charges $10 for a job that another charges $50 lower the professional status of plumbers?

Yes


And if I called a few plumbers, got quotes and one said he'd do the job for free, I'd pass, don't know why he considers his work worthless and I don't really want to take the risk to find out.

 

[mscard88]

one said he'd do the job for free, I'd pass

Rightttttttttt!

 

[James331]

Rightttttttttt!

Saving $80 on a plumber, later paying $2,000 to fix my walls and wood floors 2 months down the line.


Cheap tends to get very expensive.

 

[LDJones]

Unwritten rule, yes.

And you get what you pay for, 5 bucks and a beer say that dude was probably a crap CFI anyway.

Some of the best instruction I've ever received came from guys that offered it to me for free. They didn't need the money. They just wanted to share their decades of expertise with a young, avid aviator. So your blanket statement isn't always true.

 

[Brad Z]

Last I heard, plumbers aren't trying to log plumbing hours in hopes of getting hired by a national firm and a substantial pay increase. Nevertheless, plumbers start as apprentices and build experience at a substantial discount. And chances are, if your daddy was an independent plumber, you grew up going to work with him on jobs as his helper and there was a good chance he wasn't paying you a dime.

Face it, flying is like Firefighting, EMS, etc., it's a job that many would do for free. And yes, there are plenty of good volunteer firefighters and EMTs/Paramedics, as well as plenty of crappy career folks. Salary has nothing to do with skill.

 

[sferguson524]

Saving $80 on a plumber, later paying $2,000 to fix my walls and wood floors 2 months down the line.


Cheap tends to get very expensive.

Learned this lesson the hard way.. Got a "free" 30' sailboat. Within 6 months, i had spent $5000 on new standing rigging and lifelines.

 

[James331]

Pilots have made much of their own problems, it's sad how most folks first 121 gig can often be the lowest paid gig on their career, how as an industry, for the level of education and responsibility, pilots are paid for crap now, it's like this because cheap whores like the OP, who deleted his first post for a reason, just keep lowering the bar for the rest of us.

Also you don't see many plumbers, nurses, engineers, etc who will work for free, now I'm not talking some type charity thing like young eagles or helping in some pizz poor country, etc, or helping a personal friend or family, obviously that's a different situation.

 

[James331]

There was also this recent post, some of the excellence found in "free CFIs"

Background: first flight with this CFI(he is retired and it is a volunteer thing), trying to get checked out(+ HP endorsement) on 182T. After a conclusion of a mostly uneventful flight, the CFI is entering info into my logbook and takes an issue with one of my entries

CFI: I see you have logged .5 hours PIC in this plane before[I flew in it a few months ago with another non-CFI person and he let me practice in it]. You can't log it as PIC.

Note: He brought it up before the flight when i said i have experience in this plane, but I mostly let it go at that time.

Me: Why can't I log it like that? It is how FAA wants to log the time. It is spelled out in FAR that if i am rated in the plane and sole manipulator of the controls, i can log it as PIC time. But that's ok. Log how you want it to log, it makes no difference for the purpose of today's flight.

Note: This went back and forth a couple of time.

CFI: Your opinion is wrong and you are making bad entries in your logbook. FAA says that you cannot log this time as PIC on this plane because you are not qualified to be pilot in command on it because you do not have the endorsement. I gave you a dual time for today's flight and struck out the space for PIC so that you cannot enter the time into it because you are not allowed to.

At this point, I'm getting annoyed, so i pull out my phone, google FAR and quote FAR 61.51 to him and tell him that FAA clarified this issue relatively recently.

He smiles, looks at this other person(we both know him) and does not answer me.....while this other person looks at me and says: "Well, you just lost your instructor".

Me: What? Really? Turning to CFI: Did i really lose my instructor?
CFI: We will talk later.

And this is how i lost my CFI ... and maybe the entire volunteer thing along with it

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/how-to-lose-your-cfi-in-5-minutes-on-the-ground.99137/page-1

 

[James331]

Some of the best instruction I've ever received came from guys that offered it to me for free. They didn't need the money. They just wanted to share their decades of expertise with a young, avid aviator. So your blanket statement isn't always true.

When I instruct now, it's not exactly for the hours or money, I enjoy it and kick the money into my weekend funds

That said, I don't consider myself a worthless instructor and charge a fair rate, if anything it's a matter of self respect and respect for the industry, especially those who are trying to break into it.

Something about be the change you want to see in the world and all

 

[mscard88]

Well we all have our opinions.

 

[James331]

Well we all have our opinions.

Actually it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of standards.

 

[Brad Z]

There was also this recent post, some of the excellence found in "free CFIs"


https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/how-to-lose-your-cfi-in-5-minutes-on-the-ground.99137/page-1

I thought we established that the CFI in that situation was volunteering his time, i.e. CAP or the like.

 

[Brad Z]

Also you don't see many plumbers, nurses, engineers, etc who will work for free, now I'm not talking some type charity thing like young eagles or helping in some pizz poor country, etc, or helping a personal friend or family, obviously that's a different situation.

You know why? Because those are shi**y jobs that people do because it earns them a paycheck. Not a lot of people enjoy crawling under crawl space in a house repairing a broken sewer line in 100° temperatures. Flying is fun, and something that people are willing to pay money for. Supply and demand, pure and simple.

 

[James331]

Brad, how long have you provided for that family of your solely as a working pilot??



Never seen a nurse under a house, or many other professions, also if a plumber screws up, well that's going to be the end of a nice floor or wall, CFI screws up, it's going to make the news. Not sure how much time you have as a full time CFI, but there is work involved, it's not just joy riding.

Point is, yeah, supply and demand, and the idiot who shows up on the flight line, "doesn't need the money", and doesn't charge, well he screws over all the young guns on the line trying to break into the industry while being able to feed themselves and pay the debt after getting out of flight school, now dumb dumb who doesn't change is indirectly changing what they other CFIs can charge, which over a bigger picture lowers what their next employer will pay, because they know they don't have to pay much because they CFI is used to crap pay, and so on it goes.

Point is, not only are you saying you're worthless as a CFI, you're also d1cking over a bunch of other people and the entire industry.

You would find it in bad forum if a guy did a runup and blew crap on your plane, but you're cool with blowing crap all over working pilots and the entire industry? Huh

I know for many here flying is all fun and games, but for the people who put food on the table with it, yeah it's still fun, but it's also serious and a lot harder to put food on the table with idiots doing the PTF schemes, CFIing for free and all that other nonsense.

 

[Everskyward]

You know why? Because those are shi**y jobs that people do because it earns them a paycheck. Not a lot of people enjoy crawling under crawl space in a house repairing a broken sewer line in 100° temperatures. Flying is fun, and something that people are willing to pay money for. Supply and demand, pure and simple.

Exactly. Anyone who is a working pilot should have known this before they started out on the career. If you pick vocation that others see as fun, well...

I have been guilty of this, twice. Before I was a pilot, I was a photographer. But I accept it and don't complain when others fly for free or cheap.

 

[ifly4fun]

When I instruct now, it's not exactly for the hours or money, I enjoy it and kick the money into my weekend funds

That said, I don't consider myself a worthless instructor and charge a fair rate, if anything it's a matter of self respect and respect for the industry, especially those who are trying to break into it.

Something about be the change you want to see in the world and all

What about someone volunteering with the local AP/IA to build hours before taking the test? Polluting the workforce too?

 

[Fearless Tower]

What about someone volunteering with the local AP/IA to build hours before taking the test? Polluting the workforce too?

I don't see too many qualified A&Ps finding a hard time finding work because a bunch of folks are undercutting them.

 

[James331]

What about someone volunteering with the local AP/IA to build hours before taking the test? Polluting the workforce too?

For one, they don't even hold a FAA cert yet
So they really arnt undercutting anyone, as they arnt qualified to compete.

For two, all the apprentices I've met were getting paid anyways.

 

[orange]

That said, I don't consider myself a worthless instructor and charge a fair rate, if anything it's a matter of self respect and respect for the industry, especially those who are trying to break into it.

There it is... you quantify your self-worth by what you charge. Most people don't value themselves in terms of what they can charge.

I'm sure everybody on this thread knows that you don't always get what you pay for. In other words, more expensive doesn't always mean better. Those who say otherwise are just butthurt.

This is almost like an anti-trust/fair competition laws discussion where somebody offering their services at a loss to get rid of their competition is violating law. But CFI's are not in direct competition. And one CFI offering to train for free won't lower the market price for the rest, nor cheapen the profession (again, equating high price with high quality is inherently faulty thinking from the start).

 

[James331]

There it is... you quantify your self-worth by what you charge. Most people don't value themselves in terms of what they can charge.

I'm sure everybody on this thread knows that you don't always get what you pay for. In other words, more expensive doesn't always mean better. Those who say otherwise are just butthurt.

This is almost like an anti-trust/fair competition laws discussion where somebody offering their services at a loss to get rid of their competition is violating law. But CFI's are not in direct competition. And one CFI offering to train for free won't lower the market price for the rest, nor cheapen the profession (again, equating high price with high quality is inherently faulty thinking from the start).

Lol, you're kidding right?

And it's not what one charges, it's what you get, and that depends on what the current market will bear.....

So if there are 4 CFIs to choose from, they all charge 50hr, you want instruction at that airport, you don't need a calculator to tell you you're paying a average of 50hr, and 50hr is going to be the going rate.

Now two of those three offer their services for free, the average market rate at that field is now 25hr, and as time goes on and people get used to these free CFIs, the professionals won't be able to get 50hr anymore, no matter how good they are, they are going to have to start lowering their rates, less income to put food on their plate and roofs over their heads, less QOL.

Again, it's a trend, for a non socialist, especially a working pilot/instructor this is obvious, I see in your sig you're a PPL, you've never put food on your table with your FAA certs, and aside from basic economics, I'm not surprised you could care less.

As far as your PROFESSIONAL self worth, yeah, what others think you're worth, be it in USD, gold, clam shells, trade, whatever, it does play into your professional self worth.

 

[Morgan3820]

So..if I have a friend who happens to be a CFII, do need to pay him when he sits in as safety pilot to make the activity worthwhile? I return the favor when he needs a safety pilot.

I know a guy, 30,000 hrs. Retired as chief pilot from the US State department. Flown all...all over the world. He offered to instrument instruct for $5hr. Just for something to do. The local flight school does not seem to be worried

I think that you are overwrought, but you have already make up your mind on the issue.

 

[James331]

So..if I have a friend who happens to be a CFII, do need to pay him when he sits in as safety pilot to make the activity worthwhile? I return the favor when he needs a safety pilot.

I covered that here

...now I'm not talking some type charity thing like young eagles or helping in some pizz poor country, etc, or helping a personal friend or family, obviously that's a different situation.

I know a guy, 30,000 hrs. Retired as chief pilot from the US State department. Flown all...all over the world. He offered to instrument instruct for $5hr. Just for something to do. The local flight school does not seem to be worried

The flight school doesn't give a chit about the pilot industry, QOL for working pilots ain't on their radar, plus they probably have a better profit margin on the guy, also being a lifelong goberment worker I could see where his foresight on the private sector and economics could be skewed.

I think that you are overwrought, but you have already make up your mind on the issue.

Care to back that up with some background on yourself and your experience breaking into the private sector aviation industry and putting food on your table with your FAA certs?

 

[Cooter]

I covered that here

The flight school doesn't give a chit about the pilot industry, QOL for working pilots ain't on their radar, plus they probably have a better profit margin on the guy, also being a lifelong goberment worker I could see where his foresight on the private sector and economics could be skewed.
Care to back that up with some background on yourself and your experience breaking into the private sector aviation industry and putting food on your table with your FAA certs?

In a Free Market, shouldn't these career minded CFIs be able to offer a superior service and not be influenced by the bottom dwellers that so frustrate you? If you are interested in increasing the standard, you are attacking the wrong end.

 

[Brad Z]

This reminds me of some of the union rhetoric that gets tossed around. Around here if your company hires non-union painters or electricians or whatever, the local will picket your office building (they hire homeless people to walk around holding signs and banging plastic pail drums).

i have earned a living flying in years past, but now work on the policy side of the aviation industry. I have dealt with long days, demanding bosses, working 7 days a week to accommodate my clients schedules. Nowadays most of my instruction is done for free. Why? I can do it on my own terms, I don't have to report income, and it leaves more money for those pilots to get up in the air and stay current. I'm not stealing much work from anyone; most of the people I fly with have been inactive and I've drawn them back into the game, or they're fellow aircraft owners who've helped me out and the past, or likely will in the future.

If charging $0 makes me a bad instructor, so be it...you don't have to fly with me.

 

[Cooter]

This reminds me of some of the union rhetoric that gets tossed around.

My thoughts as well. James has yet to provide a basis for this obligation he so readily imposes on others. Fortunately, he doesn't have the force of a union behind him.

 

[dmspilot]

"As stated in the Rules of Conduct, please do not comment on the value of the goods offered, unless specifically requested by the original poster."

 

[mscard88]

I've done some free instructing and ground training and not charged. Retired, don't really need the money, and feel like it's paying back for some of the breaks and opportunities that came my way.

Tried to talk to Mulligan about aviation stuff but all he wants to talk about are boobs (which is good) and Awwwbarn football, which ain't good, and how they're gonna take Bama down, the ****ing dreamer that he is.

 

[James331]

Written by two people who have never put food on a plate with their CFI ticket