FRC from uncontrolled airport

[Jmcmanna]

Question from ATC to pilots. Scenario is you have filed IFR off an uncontrolled airport and it is VFR at the airport, so you plan on getting your clearance in the air. As you're leaving the FBO the receptionist tells you that ABC Approach called and wants you to call them back before you take off.

You call, and find that ATC has a lengthy reroute for you with a bunch of RNAV fixes. They wanted you to get the route on the ground so the frequency isn't tied up spelling out fix names, etc....

Do you think this was a good thing or bad thing? I have called FBOs and hunted down flight crews because the center put in a long reroute. Some have called back and we're grateful for the call and some have sounded inconvenienced that I asked them to call back. One was relieved because he thought he was in trouble.

I put the effort in because it helps ATC when the a/c already knows the route when picking up a clearance in the air, and I thought it would help the flight crew in the same regard....but maybe the effort isn't justified.

 

[FORANE]

Question from ATC to pilots. Scenario is you have filed IFR off an uncontrolled airport and it is VFR at the airport, so you plan on getting your clearance in the air. As you're leaving the FBO the receptionist tells you that ABC Approach called and wants you to call them back before you take off.

You call, and find that ATC has a lengthy reroute for you with a bunch of RNAV fixes. They wanted you to get the route on the ground so the frequency isn't tied up spelling out fix names, etc....

Do you think this was a good thing or bad thing? I have called FBOs and hunted down flight crews because the center put in a long reroute. Some have called back and we're grateful for the call and some have sounded inconvenienced that I asked them to call back. One was relieved because he thought he was in trouble.

I put the effort in because it helps ATC when the a/c already knows the route when picking up a clearance in the air, and I thought it would help the flight crew in the same regard....but maybe the effort isn't justified.

I would be grateful.

 

[poadeleted20]

Wow! That's service above and beyond the call of duty. I, too, would be very grateful for that, because trying to program a completely different route once airborne is a real test of your SPIFR skills, especially if you don't have an autopilot.

BTW, this scenario is one reason why I shy away from taking off VFR to pick up an IFR clearance airborne.

 

[austinglasair]

Jmcmanna,

I'd highly appreciate this. I was once told to expect my clearance after departing the field VFR and to check in during the climb. I told this person on the phone I would have perhaps 10 minutes of VMC and would rather pick up my clearance right then and there with him on the ground. He gave me a "be right back, let me check something." He comes back and replies with, "we're unable to give you your clearance now, give me a call on 118.xxx and we'll be expecting you." After exiting the pattern and immediately checked in for my clearance and was given "stand by." A minute went by and I wasn't a happy camper based off of the conversation I had moments ago with this guy telling me he'd have my clearance for me after departing Homestead (X51). Miami Approach is something else..... A minute passes, "Miami approach, I'm standing by for my IFR to XFL" and they reply with, "Roger, stand by." Meanwhile I'm about to enter IMC and about to turn the aircraft around to avoid it. Minutes pass and they give me my clearance which included points, airways, and a route that I was unfamiliar with. I quickly input everything and was legally on my way. I began to critique the route clearance and noted I was given a point that was nearly 30 NM out of the way of the enroute structure and queried the controller and he confirmed that the clearance I read back was accurate. So I replied with, "IF ABLE, I'd like to go direct." The controller replied with a stand by. "Roger, you're cleared direct XFL"

At least the lunch at Flagler was awesome.

Long story short, if the route clearance is long, complex, or requires an amendment, I'd prefer it on the ground when I can put my aircraft in the corner of the run up area to write down the amendment and reconfigure the GPS. Single pilot resource management.

 

[Brad Z]

I'd appreciate it, although I'd probably be caught off guard by the call. Also, you wouldn't have much luck finding me at the FBO, as I am often straight from hangar to plane. Of course you have my number listed from the flight plan right?

I will say that I often check flightaware and use Foreflight so the route gets sent to me ahead of time. There's a good chance I already know the route, and if it's good VFR all the waY, I might just accept VFR with flight following rather than a circuitous IFR route.

 

[John Collins]

I would rather get the expected route on ForeFlight.

 

[dans2992]

Are you talking about changes AFTER the initial clearance is issued, or if the initial clearance is something substantially different than filed?

 

[Brad Z]

Also, how do you know the crews are going to ask for the clearance airborne? Or do you do this for "regular customers" that you know will all in the air if given the chance?

 

[frfly172]

Sounds like they are going above and beyond, nothing worse than getting a complicated route change just after take off in IMC I would appreciate it.

 

[Jmcmanna]

There are a few airports in my airspace without the capability of talking to approach on the ground...the majority of pilots (including jets) depart VFR on nice days. If they have a long clearance, it can be tough to get it delivered and make sure everything is correct before the airplane is leaving my airspace (and sometimes it's busy around Chicago, and I have other aircraft to which I am talking).

It's more of an issue when the flight plan is to somewhere farther away than the adjacent approach control...if it's close, I can always coordinate with the next controller. Today, for example, I had an airplane departing DKB for CAK and Chicago Center sent down a reroute requiring the airplane be issued a full route clearance. I called the number we had for the "airport authority" and got someone's personal voicemail. It doesn't always work the way I hope, but it's easier for me to make a phone call than the controller working the sector to deal with a complicated pop-up clearance. I have had a lot of success at LOT in getting a hold of a pilot in advance, but they are certainly a different operation than DKB.

With regard to Foreflight, it's nice to know what is probably going to be the clearance, but I can put in an amendment in a few seconds if there's a route that may work out better because of an airport configuration, weather, etc...that won't show up in Foreflight.

 

[Brad Z]

With regard to Foreflight, it's nice to know what is probably going to be the clearance, but I can put in an amendment in a few seconds if there's a route that may work out better because of an airport configuration, weather, etc...that won't show up in Foreflight.

That's good to know. Occasionally it's a little different from what I've been given.

I take it you don't have the telephone number we file on the flight plan?

 

[Jmcmanna]

ATC doesn't have any information on you except your aircraft type and equipment code....your name, phone number, airplane color, etc...goes into a database for search and rescue (to which ATC doesn't have convenient access). But, anything you put in the remarks section shows up on the flight strip...so if you put your phone number there, ATC will have it.

 

[stevenclin]

Question from ATC to pilots. Scenario is you have filed IFR off an uncontrolled airport and it is VFR at the airport, so you plan on getting your clearance in the air. As you're leaving the FBO the receptionist tells you that ABC Approach called and wants you to call them back before you take off.

...

Do you think this was a good thing or bad thing?

I'm going to be a bit contrary to the other posters here and say that I personally would not find this to be very useful. I certainly appreciate the effort jmcmanna is going through to attempt to track down the pilots to issue the clearance. But if I think about what I am doing before departure, it is usually:

- Driving to the airport. Not easy/safe to be copying a clearance while driving.

- In the FBO for a few minutes to pay for fuel & parking if I'm away from home. At home, I won't even be at the FBO and they wouldn't have any idea I am even going to go flying on any given day.

- Loading up the wife and kids in the plane, making sure they've gone to the bathroom, etc.

- Preflighting the plane, pulling it out of the hangar (if at home), etc.

At none of those times will I have charts in front of me, let alone a piece of paper, nor even my original filed route to glance at while getting the clearance. If I was somehow tracked down by the FBO and given the phone (possibly interrupting my preflight, which in itself is not safe), it is very doubtful I'd have a pencil and paper, so I'd have to scrounge around looking for a scrap of paper to write the clearance on, then no way to verify I've got it right (i.e. find the route on the charts) since I don't have the charts. If I want to do it right, I might have had to walk from the plane to the FBO to receive the call, then walk back to the plane to grab my charts and pad of paper, walk back to the FBO to copy the clearance, then bring all this stuff back to the plane again. With you (ATC) on hold waiting for me to do most of this.

Whenever I take off VFR to pick up an IFR clearance, I am fully aware that ATC not be able to issue it right away, and I am prepared to fly VFR (including avoiding class B, etc.) for an indeterminate amount of time. If I'm not able to do that because the weather is relatively low (even if "legal" VFR), then I pick up a clearance on the ground, through Flight Service if there are no better options.

So, personally, it would just disrupt my normal flow, and I'd find it inconvenient to be called back into the FBO to copy a clearance. I'd much prefer just being told in the air that it'll be several minutes before you can issue the clearance, or even tell me I can't get the clearance until I'm talking to the next sector.

But, clearly others here would find it useful, so I wouldn't necessarily stop doing it, but just keep in mind that not everyone would find it helpful...

 

[Bill]

I put the effort in because it helps ATC when the a/c already knows the route when picking up a clearance in the air, and I thought it would help the flight crew in the same regard....but maybe the effort isn't justified.

A complex route amendment is much easier handled on the ground before departure. Yes, I would be appreciative.

 

[Blackhawk]

I'm going to be a bit contrary to the other posters here and say that I personally would not find this to be very useful. I certainly appreciate the effort jmcmanna is going through to attempt to track down the pilots to issue the clearance. But if I think about what I am doing before departure, it is usually:

- Driving to the airport. Not easy/safe to be copying a clearance while driving.

- In the FBO for a few minutes to pay for fuel & parking if I'm away from home. At home, I won't even be at the FBO and they wouldn't have any idea I am even going to go flying on any given day.

- Loading up the wife and kids in the plane, making sure they've gone to the bathroom, etc.

- Preflighting the plane, pulling it out of the hangar (if at home), etc.

At none of those times will I have charts in front of me, let alone a piece of paper, nor even my original filed route to glance at while getting the clearance. If I was somehow tracked down by the FBO and given the phone (possibly interrupting my preflight, which in itself is not safe), it is very doubtful I'd have a pencil and paper, so I'd have to scrounge around looking for a scrap of paper to write the clearance on, then no way to verify I've got it right (i.e. find the route on the charts) since I don't have the charts. If I want to do it right, I might have had to walk from the plane to the FBO to receive the call, then walk back to the plane to grab my charts and pad of paper, walk back to the FBO to copy the clearance, then bring all this stuff back to the plane again. With you (ATC) on hold waiting for me to do most of this.

Whenever I take off VFR to pick up an IFR clearance, I am fully aware that ATC not be able to issue it right away, and I am prepared to fly VFR (including avoiding class B, etc.) for an indeterminate amount of time. If I'm not able to do that because the weather is relatively low (even if "legal" VFR), then I pick up a clearance on the ground, through Flight Service if there are no better options.

So, personally, it would just disrupt my normal flow, and I'd find it inconvenient to be called back into the FBO to copy a clearance. I'd much prefer just being told in the air that it'll be several minutes before you can issue the clearance, or even tell me I can't get the clearance until I'm talking to the next sector.

But, clearly others here would find it useful, so I wouldn't necessarily stop doing it, but just keep in mind that not everyone would find it helpful...

While this may work for lower volume airports sometimes instead of a reroute it may be a ground stop. The last thing I would want up in the air is to be told, "Hold at XYZ VOR, EFC in oh... about 2 hours."
Also I have had some reroutes that even in a two pilot crew have been complex- if I remember there was one coming out of White Plains to the west that went to a radial/distance off a VOR and trying to remember how to do that in the FMS was a pain. I would have preferred doing that on the ground.

 

[coma24]

I think it's above and beyond. Unless a pilot is highly confident of getting the route they filed, or is willing to receive a completely different FRC, they should make attempts to call the TRACON or the national clearance delivery number on the ground, get the clearance, then depart VFR and activate in the air. That's the best balance.

When I'm flying in the middle of nowhere, I don't do this because I pretty much get as filed...but in congested airspace, I don't cold call in the air for the clnc. I get it on the ground and depart VFR to avoid tying up the airspace with the release.

 

[DJTorrente]

Aren't many folks getting a txt message with their clearance via FlightAware or ForeFlight? Would an amended clearance not come through the same way?

 

[Brad Z]

Aren't many folks getting a txt message with their clearance via FlightAware or ForeFlight? Would an amended clearance not come through the same way?

Yes, but it appears the OP can make changes after that goes out that might throw off that routing:

With regard to Foreflight, it's nice to know what is probably going to be the clearance, but I can put in an amendment in a few seconds if there's a route that may work out better because of an airport configuration, weather, etc...that won't show up in Foreflight.

 

[Jmcmanna]

With regard to amending routes....the 'usual' route might be one thing, and that's what Foreflight will tell you, but maybe I know the controller working the neighboring approach control will approve a shortcut that will shave 20 miles off the usual clearance. I might not even bother putting it in the computer because I can coordinate it in less time over the phone. So your strip might say DPA OBK BAE MSN, I might clear you DPA JVL MSN....now this isn't a big deal for getting rerouted in the air, but it is an example of how Foreflight's expected route isn't always accurate.

 

[frfly172]

Flew today and picked up clearance while airborne . Called while I was on a heading that would keep me clear of a restricted area that was hot. Cleared direct ,no problem.

 

[GauzeGuy]

I put the effort in because it helps ATC when the a/c already knows the route when picking up a clearance in the air, and I thought it would help the flight crew in the same regard....but maybe the effort isn't justified.

While I never pick up a clearance in the air, the call certainly would be appreciated if there was an unexpected change. "This will be a full route clearance, advise ready to copy" is never an enjoyable thing. I'd agree with most everything else; the extra effort would be appreciated!