Forward pressure during take-off?

[alexgeo]

Low time PP here. Just got checked out in a Tecnam P2002 light sport the other day. Beautiful airplane with a great avionics set up--also handles like an absolute dream!

One problem I forgot to address with my instructor was the nose wheel transmitting motion to the rudder pedals during the rollout. I can feel the rudder pedals vibrating as the nose wheel bobs up and down. Not too big of an issue, but it's definitely distracting when you're trying to maintain the centerline on a crosswind takeoff.

So this brings me to my question: should I apply a small amount of forward pressure during the takeoff rollout? Would this mitigate the excessive nose wheel motion?

 

[woodchucker]

It's advocated here, especially for gusting or xwind take-offs.

 

[frfly172]

With gusting winds a small amount of forward pressure can work to keep you from going airborne prematurely.

 

[Unit74]

I have no idea about that airframe, but on mine what you are describing would be ia trim issue. As in, you didn't rest your trim from the last landing.

 

[dtuuri]

I can feel the rudder pedals vibrating as the nose wheel bobs up and down. ...

So this brings me to my question: should I apply a small amount of forward pressure during the takeoff rollout?

Disclaimer: I have not flown a Tecnam.

If the nose is "bobbing" as in "floating" up and down like a cork on the the water, hold it off and run on the mains--problem solved.

If the nosewheel is shimmying, like a Cessna, hold it off and run on the mains--problem solved.

dtuuri

 

[James331]

Disclaimer: I have not flown a Tecnam.

If the nose is "bobbing" as in "floating" up and down like a cork on the the water, hold it off and run on the mains--problem solved.

If the nosewheel is shimmying, like a Cessna, hold it off and run on the mains--problem solved.

dtuuri

That.

The nose weel on every trike I've seen is by far the weakest part of the landing gear, treat it as such.

 

[MAKG1]

I haven't flown a Tecnam, but the usual way to deal with a Cessna nose gear shimmy is exactly the opposite -- get it off the ground. You can steer by rudder only at pretty low speeds.

This is quite different from gusty winds. Those will blow the airplane around rather than the nose gear.

 

[Stewartb]

Come fly on a 15' wide strip with tall trees on the side in a crosswind and you'll learn to keep the plane pinned to the ground until you have solid flying speed. Minimizing angle of attack is the key and forward yoke is how to do it. Doesn't matter if it's a nose dragger or tail dragger. In a Cessna at about 60mph the plane will fly off no matter how hard you push the nose down. That's okay because that speed offers good control and allows building more speed in low ground effect for dealing with the winds and turbulence. The only time you'd avoid nose down pressure is on a rough or soft field.

 

[d5by5]

I have no idea about that airframe, but on mine what you are describing would be ia trim issue. As in, you didn't rest your trim from the last landing.

Agreed. Make sure elevator trim is set to neutral before takeoff.

Also, make sure the flaps are set according to the POH for calm wind takeoffs. If you have max flaps set you are basically asking the plane to do a short field takeoff.

 

[woodchucker]

With everything said above, for a xwind take-off I would probably apply that slight forward pressure until airspeed hits the bottom of the white arc, then lift the nose wheel. By then you should have plenty of control surface authority.

*note that I've never had to do that, nor have I flown in that type of plane.

 

[alexgeo]

The airplane has an electronic trim with a digital gauge. A bit tricky to find neutral trim because the gauge has a very coarse scale.

The 2002 has a tendency to lift off when a small amount of back pressure is applied. I'd like to keep it on the ground until I get an appropriate amount of speed built up. I'll try adding a bit more forward pressure next time, or I'll add a bit more nose trim. Thanks for the advice!!

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Maybe I am the outlier, but I get pressure off the nosewheel any time I am able.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Maybe I am the outlier, but I get pressure off the nosewheel any time I am able.

Nah, I do as well. In the Cirrus, I'm adding backpressure and raising the nose as soon as the ASI is coming into 50+ kts. I find it much easier to control an airplane in the air than on the ground.

 

[woodchucker]

I do that as well in the 172. Bottom of the white arc. But what about gusting conditions? Or xwind? Seems like a gust of wind could easily pull the plane into the air and plant you back on the ground once it dies away. Especially with a lighter airframe. The topic of discussion is a light sport aircraft, not a Cirrus.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Seems like a gust of wind could easily pull the plane into the air and plant you back on the ground once it dies away. Especially with a lighter airframe.

An aircraft should be able to accelerate to flying speed (whether in ground effect or not) in the time it takes for the gust to "die away." Especially a lighter airframe.

I think you're trying to make a big deal out of something not so big. When the airplane is ready to fly, she will fly. If she isn't ready just yet, you coax her along until she is ready, regardless of the flight condition or transition. A private pilot should be able to clearly understand the difference between the two.

Trying to apply some black magic in the roll to make a minuscule difference is superfluous and detracts from the overall objective, in my opinion.

It's impossible to make flying buttery smooth all of the time. There comes a point when safety is the absolute paramount. If the passengers compain, well, they can go crash smoothly on some other flight, but it sure as hell won't be mine.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

In reference to the OP's situation, I feel the same thing at or near flying speed in both the M20E and PA-32 that I fly for work. Forward pressure COULD make a minuscule difference in what I feel along the roll, but is the extra work worth the effort in terms of the overall experience? No.

OP, if you're absolutely sure you want to add forward pressure on the roll, don't do it with the stick. Just add more 'nose down' trim before you start the roll. Just be conscious of the fact that that the airplane will not naturally pitch for Vy once off the ground.

(It's my understanding that the neutral position on the trim is an approximate 'nose up' attitude for a Vy climb)

 

[Silvaire]

Come fly on a 15' wide strip with tall trees on the side in a crosswind and you'll learn to keep the plane pinned to the ground until you have solid flying speed. Minimizing angle of attack is the key and forward yoke is how to do it. Doesn't matter if it's a nose dragger or tail dragger. In a Cessna at about 60mph the plane will fly off no matter how hard you push the nose down. That's okay because that speed offers good control and allows building more speed in low ground effect for dealing with the winds and turbulence. The only time you'd avoid nose down pressure is on a rough or soft field.

Yes and this is another advantage of a conventional geared aircraft in that you can really shove that nose down and pin it without worrying about some fragile nosegear busting off and flipping you over.

 

[woodchucker]

A thought exercise. You are at 40 kts. A guest of 20 momentarily hits you headwind. That's enough to send a plane skyward. If that guest drops off... or circulates around to become a tailwind, what then? You end up back on the runway if you are lucky.

I've landed in gusting winds of that magnitude, but never taken off in those conditions. If landing in gusting winds ought to be at one-half the gust factor, shouldn't take-offs be the same? Then you need to add nose down trim or forward pressure.

 

[SkyDog58]

Yep. I was taught to add 1/2 gust factor for both takeoff and landing.

 

[Stewartb]

Yes and this is another advantage of a conventional geared aircraft in that you can really shove that nose down and pin it without worrying about some fragile nosegear busting off and flipping you over.

The technique is the same in my 180 as it was in the Hawk XP I had before it. If the winds are strong enough to get your attention the proper thing to do is use zero AOA and get as much speed as possible to maximize controls. Two weeks ago wife and I left my little cabin strip in 45-60* crossing winds blowing approx 25G40. It had my full attention as I kept the plane pinned to the ground for as long as I could. Once the wheels are off the hands and feet got really busy.

 

[dell30rb]

So this brings me to my question: should I apply a small amount of forward pressure during the takeoff rollout? Would this mitigate the excessive nose wheel motion?

Yes. On a crosswind takeoff, keep the nosewheel planted until the plane is ready to fly. Use a touch of forward pressure if you need to. Once you gain enough speed, deliberately pull the plane off of the runway. You want to make a quick transition from rolling to flying.

The normal takeoff, lifting the nosewheel and waiting for the plane to lift off will result in the plane getting light on the wheels before it is ready to fly. In a crosswind situation, being light on the wheels without having enough lift to fly sets you up to skid around and makes the airplane harder to keep straight. Also puts unnecessary wear/tear on the gear and tires.

 

[MAKG1]

Guys, the OP is reporting up and down motion in the nose gear. This is NOT a crosswind effect. So, stop giving gusty crosswind advice to correct it. It's exactly the wrong thing to do under the circumstances.

This is a rough field effect, and a soft field technique is the right way to handle it.

 

[Stewartb]

From the OP....

Not too big of an issue, but it's definitely distracting when you're trying to maintain the centerline on a crosswind takeoff.

The discussion is bigger than the original question but it's still applicable.

 

[RoscoeT]

The normal takeoff, lifting the nosewheel and waiting for the plane to lift off will result in the plane getting light on the wheels before it is ready to fly. In a crosswind situation, being light on the wheels without having enough lift to fly sets you up to skid around and makes the airplane harder to keep straight. Also puts unnecessary wear/tear on the gear and tires.

But plenty of airplanes have sufficient aileron authority to get up on one wheel (nosewheel off the ground!) on the take off roll before the airplane starts skidding around due to being light on its feet. This technique is not just for tailwheel airplanes. See lots of trike pilots drive it down the runway with the ailerons neutral during a x-wind T/O.

 

[DavidWhite]

A thought exercise. You are at 40 kts. A guest of 20 momentarily hits you headwind. That's enough to send a plane skyward. If that guest drops off... or circulates around to become a tailwind, what then? You end up back on the runway if you are lucky.

I've landed in gusting winds of that magnitude, but never taken off in those conditions. If landing in gusting winds ought to be at one-half the gust factor, shouldn't take-offs be the same? Then you need to add nose down trim or forward pressure.

I landed in gusting winds of that magnitude today - and took off, about 10 times. The secret is controlling the airspeed at which you will fly off at - with flaps. They are the secret to take offs and landings in gusty winds.

 

[woodchucker]

I landed in gusting winds of that magnitude today - and took off, about 10 times. The secret is controlling the airspeed at which you will fly off at - with flaps. They are the secret to take offs and landings in gusty winds.

Hey Dave, can you explain how you handle gusting winds on take-off? Flaps and yoke position.

 

[MAKG1]

With Johnson bar flaps, you can add in max permitted at rotation to get a positive lift off. Don't bother with a 182, as it will take longer than the takeoff roll to deploy to 20 deg.

 

[Bill Watson]

The technique is the same in my 180 as it was in the Hawk XP I had before it. If the winds are strong enough to get your attention the proper thing to do is use zero AOA and get as much speed as possible to maximize controls. Two weeks ago wife and I left my little cabin strip in 45-60* crossing winds blowing approx 25G40. It had my full attention as I kept the plane pinned to the ground for as long as I could. Once the wheels are off the hands and feet got really busy.

Personally I'm torn. I've never used forward pressure in a trike to help directional control. I've certainly worked to get my Maule up on the mains and used forward pressure to keep them planted until the downwind wheel could be lifted.

However, what you are saying here about doing it in the Hawk makes some sense. Sounds like it could reduce all the control flapping and foot stabbing I would be doing in such a situation. I'll try that sometime in my '10.

For the specific Tecnam situation, I'd stick to lightening up on the nosewheel early and get on the mains and get flying. I'd consider Stewartb's technique 'advanced' and a technique that could possible lead some to bad habits. Generally speaking, forward pressure on a light tricycle aircraft is bad technique. But a useful technique in the right situation for an experienced pilot.

Bill "no Tecnam experience and not a CFI" Watson

 

[Bill Watson]

With Johnson bar flaps, you can add in max permitted at rotation to get a positive lift off. Don't bother with a 182, as it will take longer than the takeoff roll to deploy to 20 deg.

And with the Mooney, remember you don't have them

 

[dell30rb]

Guys, the OP is reporting up and down motion in the nose gear. This is NOT a crosswind effect. So, stop giving gusty crosswind advice to correct it. It's exactly the wrong thing to do under the circumstances.

This is a rough field effect, and a soft field technique is the right way to handle it.

Edited..


The original post is somewhat vague, he could be talking about a nosewheel shimmy because he uses the word "vibration"

But my original reading led me to believe that he has nosewheel steering in the tecnam, and during crosswind takeoffs the nose is "bobbing up and down" breaking contact, and re-making contact with the runway and transferring a jolt to his rudder pedals each time this happens.

 

[dell30rb]

Personally I'm torn. I've never used forward pressure in a trike to help directional control.

However, what you are saying here about doing it in the Hawk makes some sense. Sounds like it could reduce all the control flapping and foot stabbing I would be doing in such a situation. I'll try that sometime in my '10.

If you're 10 has nosewheel steering, keeping the nosewheel firmly planted on the takeoff roll in gusty crosswinds will help you keep the centerline. Wait until you have attained a slightly faster than normal rotation speed, then deliberately lift the plane off of the runway.

Even if you don't have nosewheel steering, it makes sense to keep the nose down and attitude flat so you develop as little lift as possible during a crosswind takeoff roll. If you're light on the wheels but not ready to fly, the airplane will skid around in a crosswind.

 

[Bill Watson]

If you're 10 has nosewheel steering, keeping the nosewheel firmly planted on the takeoff roll in gusty crosswinds will help you keep the centerline. Wait until you have attained a slightly faster than normal rotation speed, then deliberately lift the plane off of the runway.

Even if you don't have nosewheel steering, it makes sense to keep the nose down and attitude flat so you develop as little lift as possible during a crosswind takeoff roll. If you're light on the wheels but not ready to fly, the airplane will skid around in a crosswind.

It doesn't have a steerable nosewheel - it casters as all RVs do.

I must say, that's not the way I fly. Probably has to do with starting out with gliders equipped with 1 main wheel - some were nose skidders, others were fixed wheel tail draggers. In all cases you had to 'fly' the moment you started moving and had to keep 'flying' until you secured a wing. Lots of full
movements involved when slow. The wind usually increased control along with the need to exercise it. Ballasted racers were steadier in xwinds but had a lot more inertia to overcome.

Light tailwheel planes require that you 'fly' the plane when on the ground long before the controls or wing are working fully. Again full control movements, cross controlling and anticipation involved when xwinds are involved.

I probably need to add the forward pressure thing to my xwind trike flying but I'm afraid of getting lazy about proper control position and movement. High xwinds can still ruin your day in strong conditions. But I'll work with it a bit. Is that what CFIs teach in trikes these days?

 

[Clark1961]

Is that what CFIs teach in trikes these days?

I was never taught forward pressure unless taxiing with a tailwind.

Neutral trim for take-off and hold aileron appropriate for crosswind. Don't rotate early. Won't say I've never had an "interesting" departure but never an eventful one so far.

 

[dell30rb]

I was never taught forward pressure unless taxiing with a tailwind.

Neutral trim for take-off and hold aileron appropriate for crosswind. Don't rotate early. Won't say I've never had an "interesting" departure but never an eventful one so far.

For normal takeoffs in a trike I was taught to pull the front wheel off just slightly before it reached flying speed and let the plane fly off on its own. I tend to trim it nose light, most planes have a "takeoff" marking and i'll always pass that by a notch.

For crosswind takeoffs, my CFI said "hold it on till she is ready to fly, then pull it off the runway". Of course, appropriate aileron for a takeoff. You could trim it a little nose heavy or just give a little downward pressure with the yoke/stick. Either one works. Just don't pull the nose wheel off the runway until its ready to fly.

I'm convinced the guy taught me right, he had 12k hours total 7k dual given and 90% of that in piston singles.

 

[jordane93]

I was never taught forward pressure unless taxiing with a tailwind.

Neutral trim for take-off and hold aileron appropriate for crosswind. Don't rotate early. Won't say I've never had an "interesting" departure but never an eventful one so far.

This is how I teach it as well.

 

[Stewartb]

Do you use takeoff trim? If so the airplane will climb off the runway with the nose up. If the winds are enough to blow you through the side marker lights on the runway while you become light on the wheels it stands to reason you might want to increase the pressure on the tires until you're ready to fly with control. And that's what I've referred to. If you don't do it, have never done it, don't teach it? You must not fly in conditions that require it. Nothing wrong with that. If you find yourself in those conditions you'll quickly figure out how to handle them.

 

[Bill Watson]

Do you use takeoff trim? If so the airplane will climb off the runway with the nose up. If the winds are enough to blow you through the side marker lights on the runway while you become light on the wheels it stands to reason you might want to increase the pressure on the tires until you're ready to fly with control. And that's what I've referred to. If you don't do it, have never done it, don't teach it? You must not fly in conditions that require it. Nothing wrong with that. If you find yourself in those conditions you'll quickly figure out how to handle them.

Yes, always, on both TW and trikes. And I suspect that you have too though you may normally trim differently for high xwinds.

In any case, you know as well as I do that using forward pressure to help the tires keep you straight on the runway can work on a trike up to a point but doesn't mean crap on a tailwheel. Full aileron into the wind and downwind rudder is the key. Keeping the mains planted on a tailwheel until full control authority is reached is important but there's really no other option. And anything that works on a tailwheel will work on a trike with minor adjustments.

I've flown in plenty of tough xwind conditions. Hitting the lights has never been an issue. My TW experience is limited to a Maule and I definitely knew what to do there. I may not be taking full advantage of the trike gear on my '10 in similar conditions but 'flying' the plane without trying to keep the nosewheel planted has worked just fine... may have required more work but it works.

I'm going to try some of the 'forward pressure' stuff going forward but I know the skills developed without the training wheel work and I know I can depend on them.

 

[txflyer]

I add forward pressure on every take of and every landing.

One to raise the tail, the other to keep the tail up.

Oh, and taxiing away from the wind. Forward. "when taxiing, climb into the wind and dive away from it." -- taildragger 101

 

[Bill Watson]

I add forward pressure on every take of and every landing.

One to raise the tail, the other to keep the tail up.

Oh, and taxiing away from the wind. Forward. "when taxiing, climb into the wind and dive away from it." -- taildragger 101

With my Maule, I did the same on every takeoff but rarely on landing. Almost all landings were 3 pointers - it's a Maule thing - but I forced myself to practice wheelies anyway. But even in maximum winds, 3 pointers with reflex flaps were the preferred technique - it's a Maule thing.

But I definitely don't routinely add forward pressure on my trike ops. But I'm open to adding them during high xwind conditions.