ForeFlight version 8 has been released.

Don Quixote said:
I don't think so... If I tap nothing comes up. Also I agree with Fearless Tower the aero map overlayed on the sectional looks terrible. Even more cluttered than before.
Click to expand...

You don't see something like this? The portion of airspace I tapped on is highlighted and the boundaries are at the top of the popup.

ForeFlight 8.jpg
 
Fearless Tower said:
I can see the value of the straight aeronautical map for folks who are using FF in the air on their iPhone, but overlaying the aeronautical vectors on top of the raster sectional looks like crap.
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The live, moving screen does look better than these static screenshots. Regardless, I've been using the raster sectionals on the iPhone for years, and this is a significant improvement.
 
Don Quixote said:
Yes agree. And it isn't just FAA... Those vector graphics are there WORLDWIDE. There is a lot of work that went into that.
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Isn't Foreflight just US and Canada?

gsengle said:
That's what a dynamic data driven vector map is. It's the whole point.

And yes, I spent a career developing software and have a degree in computer science.


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Click to expand...

Ooh. Can I touch you? LOL.

James331 said:
HOLD UP!

So for VFR we all know lakes and rivers are one of the best landmarks... So why the heck did FF disappear Sturgeon Lake (major landmark) and all but disappear the frickin giant Columbia River (looks like MAYBE a creek) on their new maps?!

Do they think their demographic is going to be SOO glued to the screens that they don't care about the outside the window visual landmarks?? That would the the V of the VFR

That's a big issue
Click to expand...

This is a very good point. I expand below...

Pilawt said:
And here it is on the iPad, with the terrain background turned on. There's your river.
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Why not just pull up the VFR chart then? LOL....

Folks seem to forget that when you look back at historical charts, they've changed a lot over the years. Early VFR charts kinda looked like that screenshot above. Little detail, and mostly airport markings.

The charts really are very well designed to show you exactly what you need to know. VFR charts seem quite cluttered but have a ton of useful data.

IFR charts look a lot like vector graphics, but are supposed to be backed up by VFR charts.

If you have to tap on something go find out more information someone chose not to display, in general, t's more workload overall. More heads down time, less looking outside, etc.

Having to scroll someone mentioned as bad, but it's better than the chart folding mess many of us remember in the cockpit. I'll take that minor annoyance over unfolding and refolding a chart.

But the "software developer" adequately described the gaping hole in the vector graphics thing... There has to be a data source, or it's not going to be there. Example: Visual reporting points... A tiny little flag and a name on the VFR chart... Those won't be in the "data", I bet. Lakes, especially lake names, same thing...

Charts were developed by folks easily as smart as "software engineers" -- don't let the standard lie of my business (IT) suck you in, that because a computer is involved, it's always magically better and there's such smart people involved in computers that they've come up with a better way...

Sometimes a filing cabinet and a sheet of paper really are better than firing up the laptop. Shhhhh. Don't tell anyone. I won't have a job. LOL.
 
SCCutler said:
So, I upgraded and the new "Aeronautical" map is available - but no aeronautical features at all show; just city and lake names.
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Make sure you have downloaded the newest Airport and NAV Database (Aug 26). Until I had that, the new map layer wasn't fully functional.
 
I'm so confused why people are complaining about screen clutter on VFR charts. The chart is the chart, nothing anyone can do to de-clutter it. Honestly, I won't upgrade my subscription to a plus level for these new charts, because they contain far LESS information than the VFR charts do! I'm very curious to know how pilots respond to these new charts after flying with them! The first time you have to plan a cross country flight through complex airspace and have no idea how high the airspace goes, you will have to reference the VFR charts anyway!

I just fail to understand how this new update is actually an upgrade over prior versions of Foreflight!

Foreflight is a fantastic product. If anything, pilots should be crying for reliability and in the reliability department, Foreflight is amazing!
 
Hey Denver, paper charts are going away, ask Rand McNally how many road atlases they sell these days.

The FAA will discontinue the paper sectional in my lifetime to be sure. The dynamic product will get very very good.

And I didn't offer up my background until someone point blank asked and challenged why I said what I said.

Visual reporting points? That's your argument? Just add em to the data set. Big deal. But even those I believe have long been tracked, how do you think the map makers did those pretty sectionals?

https://nfdc.faa.gov/xwiki/bin/view/NFDC/56DaySub-2016-07-21

And ForeFlight is going global, to be sure.


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So, I updated it on my IPhone and switched to the aeronautical format.....but I'm not seeing any airport symbology like I see on my iPad. What button did I miss?
 
gsengle said:
Just touch the spot your curious about and you can see the airspace heights. Or turn on the sectional layer.... It is there, just that you have to tap for it...


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Click to expand...
So, IOW, pay extra so I can tap to get data that I have without tapping in the version I have.

It makes you wonder if they even have pilots on their staff. Or if they are just computer geeks.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So, I updated it on my IPhone and switched to the aeronautical format.....but I'm not seeing any airport symbology like I see on my iPad. What button did I miss?
Click to expand...

Mine didn't either until I downloaded the new airport and nav database in the downloads section of ForeFlight.



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RalphInCA said:
So, IOW, pay extra so I can tap to get data that I have without tapping in the version I have.

It makes you wonder if they even have pilots on their staff. Or if they are just computer geeks.
Click to expand...

Ok go get Garmin or WingX. Wa wa wa

These maps will improve quickly.


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Does foreflight allow you to adjust what zoom level/ size things on the vector maps show up at?
 
jspilot said:
I'm so confused why people are complaining about screen clutter on VFR charts.
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Because people complaining, well, as the Geico commercials say, "that what they do."

But it's really about airspace and what you need at any given time. Even without new and improved charting solutions, just look at the difference between IFR and VFR charts. IFR charts are designed bot be pretty devoid of detail so the pertinent IFR information is a bit easier to find (and even those get cluttered in certain airspace). But that same devoid of detail means some people will want to use Sectionals even for IFR flights.

Complaints are, "whaa whaaa, I don't like it!" Solutions are, "I'm happy to have multiple choices on my EFB and can switch among them in two taps as needed."
 
Fearless Tower said:
So, I updated it on my IPhone and switched to the aeronautical format.....but I'm not seeing any airport symbology like I see on my iPad. What button did I miss?
Click to expand...
Make sure all of the downloadable databases are up to date. If the maps, nav, and airport database isn't the August 26 version, the new format won't work correctly.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Because people complaining, well, as the Geico commercials say, "that what they do."

But it's really about airspace and what you need at any given time. Even without new and improved charting solutions, just look at the difference between IFR and VFR charts. IFR charts are designed bot be pretty devoid of detail so the pertinent IFR information is a bit easier to find (and even those get cluttered in certain airspace). But that same devoid of detail means some people will want to use Sectionals even for IFR flights.

Complaints are, "whaa whaaa, I don't like it!" Solutions are, "I'm happy to have multiple choices on my EFB and can switch among them in two taps as needed."
Click to expand...
Adding to this, the nay-sayers should keep in mind this is just the first release version. Improvements and add ons are sure to come.

Sorta like buying a house that's not that old and then repainting the walls or remodeling the kitchen.
 
RalphInCA said:
So, IOW, pay extra so I can tap to get data that I have without tapping in the version I have.

It makes you wonder if they even have pilots on their staff. Or if they are just computer geeks.
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I've seen a lot of posts like this in this thread... Not trying to pick on Ralph in particular but you guys sound like a mouse from the who moved my cheese book.

"OMG, they added a different map option. Waaaahhhh the sky is falling!!11one!eleven!"


Here's a big giant secret: THE VFR CHARTS ARE STILL THERE AND YOU CAN STILL USE THEM EXACTLY THE SAME WAY YOU ALWAYS HAVE!!

If you want to use a sectional you can. If you want to use the new vector based charts you can. No one is forcing you to do anything different then you've been doing.

No one is forcing you to pay more. You don't have to do anything differently.

So frustrating to see people making posts that say how bad the new stuff is and how it won't be useful to them. Great! Don't use it.

I'll use them when it makes sense and when it makes more sense to use the sectional I'll use that. Options are good.
 
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hockeyrcks9901 said:
I've seen a lot of posts like this in this thread... Not trying to pick on Ralph in particular but you guys sound like a mouse from the who moved my cheese book.

"OMG, they added a different map option. Waaaahhhh the sky is falling!!11one!eleven!"


Here's a big giant secret: THE VFR CHARTS ARE STILL THERE AND YOU CAN STILL USE THEN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY YOU ALWAYS HAVE!!

If you want to use a sectional you can. If you want to use the new vector based charts you can. No one is forcing you to do anything different then you've been doing.

No one is forcing you to pay more. You don't have to do anything differently.

So frustrating to see people making posts that say how bad the new stuff is and how it won't be useful to them. Great! Don't use it.

I'll use them when it makes sense and when it makes more sense to use the sectional I'll use that. Options are good.
Click to expand...

It's called a discussion / hangar flying. That's what we do on forums - we discuss things.

And since you mentioned "who moved my cheese" – part of change management is giving the people affected by the change time to process. Part of this processing is discussions about the change.

Also, part of the reason for this thread – for some of us - is we are trying to decide whether this change is worth the money for us. If we don't ask questions/discuss the change and possibly even criticize the change, we can't make a decision about the $value of the change. We are well aware of the fact that we don't need to use the new functionality. We are just trying to decide if we want to.
 
RalphInCA said:
It's called a discussion / hangar flying. That's what we do on forums - we discuss things.

And since you mentioned "who moved my cheese" – part of change management is giving the people affected by the change time to process. Part of this processing is discussions about the change.

Also, part of the reason for this thread – for some of us - is we are trying to decide whether this change is worth the money for us. If we don't ask questions/discuss the change and possibly even criticize the change, we can't make a decision about the $value of the change. We are well aware of the fact that we don't need to use the new functionality. We are just trying to decide if we want to.
Click to expand...

I shouldn't have quoted your post as yours wasn't really that bad. But a lot of the people making posts in this thread don't seem to understand that the vector charts aren't replacing the VFR sectionals. At least not for the foreseeable future. There were a number of posts that sounded like the poster didn't understand that the VFR sectional is still there.

I would agree that ForeFlight's pricing structure is stupid. They need to fix that.
 
But no one will hang around your hangar when you get a little too grumpy/sour ;)


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gsengle said:
Hey Denver, paper charts are going away, ask Rand McNally how many road atlases they sell these days.

The FAA will discontinue the paper sectional in my lifetime to be sure. The dynamic product will get very very good.

And I didn't offer up my background until someone point blank asked and challenged why I said what I said.

Visual reporting points? That's your argument? Just add em to the data set. Big deal. But even those I believe have long been tracked, how do you think the map makers did those pretty sectionals?

https://nfdc.faa.gov/xwiki/bin/view/NFDC/56DaySub-2016-07-21

And ForeFlight is going global, to be sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

LOL... Standard tech guy answer...

"It'll be great when we finish it!"

Great. Go finish it. You'll end up with a VFR chart. Haha. It will rotate text for those too lazy to switch orientations.

AggieMike88 said:
Adding to this, the nay-sayers should keep in mind this is just the first release version. Improvements and add ons are sure to come.

Sorta like buying a house that's not that old and then repainting the walls or remodeling the kitchen.
Click to expand...

And forgetting to install the toilet, the light fixtures, and the carpet, while charging a recurring maintenance fee so those can be installed later at the contractor's leisure.

Im not a Luddite by any stretch, but I recognize software engineering BS when I see it... I work in this biz. It's why software is never finished anymore, and all software models lead to renting software now, instead of owning software. In everything.

If it was so well "engineered", it would actually be a replacement for the original which (gasp!) was also engineered... But the industry has figured out that people will pay to wait. It's impressive really.

But I do like the moxy of the young software engineer who's all excited that "the whole WORLD will change!!!"... Haha. Yes it will.

But mostly because swapping dead tree versions of charts out, is a pain, once you're done wallpapering the hangar and the man cave with the old ones.

"It'll all be better!!!" Yes, yes it will. Once it catches up to the engineering effort placed into the paper chart. Until then, it'll have a button that says, "look at paper chart". LOL.
 
This is a remarkably good v1.0 release and it's totally optional. You're just a grumpy old man.

Then again I shouldn't say that because I don't know you. I'm probably older than you. But I try to be less grumpy ;)


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gsengle said:
This is a remarkably good v1.0 release and it's totally optional. You're just a grumpy old man.

Then again I shouldn't say that because I don't know you. I'm probably older than you. But I try to be less grumpy ;)


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Click to expand...

Comes from watching software companies from the inside. Haha.

Soooooo much you folks don't know about how really awful this stuff is that you buy...

Rotating letters on a map, isn't all that interesting to me. I'll end up upgrading eventually, just because it's the path of least resistance, but not in any particular hurry.

Like I said, I'm waiting to see how bad Apple sucks over the next year or so. The last two days, all of my iOS devices have been repeatedly asking for my AppleID over and over...

That'll be great in the cockpit... iOS pop-ups! Woooo. LOL.

Research into the matter reveals the usual hundreds of people experiencing it and the standard answer from Apple... Restore the entire device.

Been there, done that, twice this year already on all three of them. For different iOS problems, which have the same "fix".

If Apple keeps crapping the bed on iOS, it won't matter how nice a product Foreflight has become...
 
Dynamic data-driven renditions of the charts are a great improvement over pre-rendered static charts. Maybe the first implementation isn't perfect, but the notion of having less data being displayed when you're zoomed out with more detail coming into view as you zoom in is pretty powerful.

Try looking up driving directions from coast to coast with a paper-based map, then try it with Google Maps to get a feel for the difference.

I think we're so used to paper charts that we've considered tablet versions of the old charts to be the top of the mountain when it comes to charting options. In fact, I think what FF is doing is really the right direction for the future.
 
You have maintain the data anyway. Well, the government does. I posted the links for the raw data. That same data is used to hand draw maps. Not to long from now things like hand drawn sectionals will go away...


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Gotta love PoA... Introduce a one eyed cat to the group, and an argument will start about if it is entering or leaving the room, which FAR governs its movement, and if the Chief Counsel has correctly rendered an opinion on what was left in the litter box.
 
I think the map upgrade is great....but they do need to add easily viewable altitude floors to the B, C and D rings. I think all those complaining about it are just going by an initial observation. The same old foreflight is still there, you just have to turn off the aeronautical map if you don't like it.
 
mr_happyland said:
I think the map upgrade is great....but they do need to add easily viewable altitude floors to the B, C and D rings. I think all those complaining about it are just going by an initial observation. The same old foreflight is still there, you just have to turn off the aeronautical map if you don't like it.
Click to expand...

Not all. Some of us have actual use-case specifics in our posts.

The very eager poster who loves computer derived chart building has the usual "new tech excitement" about same. That's cool. I've been involved in software projects that brought something new to market that replaced a (supposedly) old-fashioned system.

The thing about it is, eventually the user realizes they lost functionality in the new system. Because software is almost always released before it's a TRUE replacement. Essentially what we see today is an excellent framework for a fully replaced version of a cartographic project. A project that was built over decades by folks equally as smart as today's software engineers.

The excited software engineer poo-poo'd my gberic statement PLUS an example (VFR reporting points not being in the data and not available in the finished product) as wrong because he didn't find those important. That's a very common mental mistake in software systems that are claiming they'll "eventually replace" something. Whether that something is a filing cabinet and a secretary, or a map. Doesn't really matter.

The MATURE version of the "dreamware" will be an interactive map that isn't far from the modern day paper chart. In fact, we will be able to watch over many year's time the entire chart legend being coded into "electronic charts". It's essentially a checklist for the coders working on the project in fact. The day the electronic version can show you at a single glance, everything that's in that legend -- and then add ONE more new feature, is the real day the paper chart is (maybe) dead.

But maybe not. Will every aircraft everywhere have a digital display? If not... Paper still is the backup system because it intrinsically can be transported anywhere and doesn't require a pocket computer to display it, nor batteries, nor power source of any sort other than sunlight.

So... Is the paper chart dead? Eventually. Is the Foreflight move to get a basic start on electronic replacement underway? Yup. Will they be able to remove the scanned paper chart button any time soon? Guess that depends on how fast they can code and whether every detail on a paper chart is available as a data point.

Is it nifty? Sure. Is it a replacement? Wasn't intended to be yet. Is it worth $50 more a year? Perhaps. That's a value judgement.

This article describes how a professional cartographer can create a stunning and useful map. There's art to it. A computer drawing things from a database will never be able to fully replicate that art form. It will only be able to mimic it. Because a computer has to be told a value of importance to each item, and a cartographer knows these things in their head. (Granted, a legal chart like our aviation charts do have a minimum standard for what MUST be displayed and what is optional and that'll make it easier to code into hard rules a computer must follow.)

Start with the chart legend and replicate everything in it. Then add a certain touch of art that may or may not be easy to capture in computer logic. That's the direction it'll head... But it "ain't there yet", and that's okay.

The question always is, how much do you like tech that shows great usefulness and promise, and at what point do you start paying for it in the timeline from "just started" to "replaced the old way".

The article:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/...ography_of_the_united_states_of_america_.html

(It's a cool read even if you don't relate it to aviation charts. It really shows how the human touch can make something a computer can create, so much better. Teach the computer to do this, and you'll forever change the world...)
 
Actually, with all this talk about the new mapping, the best feature (to me) in this update is a very simple one I haven't seen mentioned - the replacement of the icon that toggles the flight planning window on the map page with the letters FPL. In the past I've clicked on the wrong icon more times than I can count
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually, with all this talk about the new mapping, the best feature (to me) in this update is a very simple one I haven't seen mentioned - the replacement of the icon that toggles the flight planning window on the map page with the letters FPL. In the past I've clicked on the wrong icon more times than I can count
Click to expand...

LOL. I must say, I noticed that tonight too, and liked it.

Why the icon was so hard to remember and a damned acronym works better in my head, must be a result of the million or so acronyms in aviation. Haha.

It's even a bad acronym if it stands for Flight PLan (note capitalization), but it works. LOL.

That one scores a point for usability for me too.
 
724df7b058e515197a5ac42cc848a3bf.jpg



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denverpilot said:
LOL. I must say, I noticed that tonight too, and liked it.

Why the icon was so hard to remember and a damned acronym works better in my head, must be a result of the million or so acronyms in aviation. Haha.

It's even a bad acronym if it stands for Flight PLan (note capitalization), but it works. LOL.

That one scores a point for usability for me too.
Click to expand...
In this case I think the bad acronym works because has the advantage of relatively long term standardization and recognition. It's there on the modern panel GPS units and goes back at least to the KLN 89 in about 1997.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually, with all this talk about the new mapping, the best feature (to me) in this update is a very simple one I haven't seen mentioned - the replacement of the icon that toggles the flight planning window on the map page with the letters FPL. In the past I've clicked on the wrong icon more times than I can count
Click to expand...


That's worth $50 to me. And the city names I like too
 
Interesting. I live on a private airstrip at Lake Oconee, Georgia - 32GA. It shows on both the old and new charts. However, Lake Oconee itself is a different story. The lake was formed in 1979. It's the 2nd largest lake entirely within the state of Georgia. It's on the old sectional charts clear as day. But it is completely missing from the new charts. Just shows the old river course before the dam was built and the lake created. Just how old is that data that was used to create these new charts?
 
MtPJimB said:
Interesting. I live on a private airstrip at Lake Oconee, Georgia - 32GA. It shows on both the old and new charts. However, Lake Oconee itself is a different story. The lake was formed in 1979. It's the 2nd largest lake entirely within the state of Georgia. It's on the old sectional charts clear as day. But it is completely missing from the new charts. Just shows the old river course before the dam was built and the lake created. Just how old is that data that was used to create these new charts?
Click to expand...
Do you have the "terrain" background turned on (in "Settings")?
 
CodeMonkey said:
We put the new pricing plans together last year to do two things: *not* raise prices for customers that were fine with what they had, but also provide a way forward for new features that are built at an additional expense. Here's the current plan comparison:

https://www.foreflight.com/pricing

The new Basic Plus plan ($99.99) has a ton of features now, including the new maps and digital airport maps. It may be sufficient for many customers that don't want every bell and whistle.
Click to expand...

Adding new features to software has been common for decades...without creating tiered product versions. I still use Excel and don't have to by Excel Pro or Excel Pro Plus to get the latest features...they just come automatically when I renew my Office 365. I know software development isn't cheap, but keeping a product moving forward is what keeps the renewals coming in...until people feel they're being milked. I'm not saying you're there yet...but the trend isn't encouraging.
 
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