ForeFlight pirep - not impressed
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Everskyward
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I got around to testing it and this is what I came up with. There is no cell service and the airplane mode is off.
Map page.
Searching for nearby airports.
Guess it couldn't find any.
So, whether or not the GPS is actually working, the program doesn't work with no cell service, at least that I can tell.
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alaskaflyer
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Everskyward said:I got around to testing it and this is what I came up with. There is no cell service and the airplane mode is off.
Map page.
Searching for nearby airports.
Guess it couldn't find any.
So, whether or not the GPS is actually working, the program doesn't work with no cell service, at least that I can tell.
What version of FF?
Do you have charts downloaded and cached?
Were you in a location where the GPS signal could have been aquired?
Did you wait a couple minutes to ensure they had aquired? (My kingdom for an iPhone GPS "status" page similar to a Garmin.)
Just yesterday I was in an area of the park with no cell service, no wifi, and not only did I access several offline features of Foreflight including finding my current location on the Fairbanks sectional, but I used another app to do something similar on a Topo (Gaia.) Without a data signal I've found that it can take two full minutes or more after you pull it out of your pocket and unlock the screen before GPS aquisition and position calculation occurs.
Everskyward
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v3, free version only.
Only what they call the "airport database". I just now noticed you could download a whole bunch of other charts.
I was in an airplane. I'll confess that it was a commercial airliner in the window seat.
I waited until that last message popped up which took a couple minutes I think.
Everskyward
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Well, the only charts it will let me download without a subscription are the airport diagrams. I downloaded Colorado. Now I've got to find an airport with no cell phone service.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I got around to testing it and this is what I came up with. There is no cell service and the airplane mode is off.
Map page.
Searching for nearby airports.
Guess it couldn't find any.
So, whether or not the GPS is actually working, the program doesn't work with no cell service, at least that I can tell.
In the first image, you're looking at the radar screen, which is downloaded from the Internet and thus requires a connection. Also, remember that you need to initially establish your location in an area with cell reception, meaning you need to have launched FF on the ground. Once it has a GPS location, it'll continue to work after takeoff, but. If you don't get it going until you're at altitude, it won't work.
Everskyward
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My iPhone turns off in a few minutes if I haven't performed some action. Will it keep working as long as it's busy updating the position or would I need to change the settings so that it doesn't turn off. That seems like it would drain the battery pretty quickly. I'm just asking these questions out of curiosity because I'm wondering how practical it is.
billwil
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just using the GPS continually drains the battery as well, screen on or not. You would be hard pressed to get 2.5 hours out of it with the GPS running...probably only 2 with both the GPS and the screen full bright. Add to that the carrier radio "searching" for a signal (which also drains the iPhone battery, and can't be shut off separately from the GPS), and this is something you probably wouldn't want to try for a cross country flight unless you had a charger on the iPhone or an external battery of some sort.
That said, when I use ForeFlight on a cross country on the iPhone, I use it as a reference (not a moving map display). I keep it in a side pocket on my kneeboard and turn it on when I need to look something up or look at a chart real quick. Usually what I'm looking up is a frequency, runway, airport notes, or other "green book" or chart data. While on the ground, though, it's just as powerful, with an internet connection giving me current and forecast weather, weather imagery, DUATS briefings, etc...and then allowing me to file my flight plans.
I guess what I'm saying is that ForeFlight is not really a navigation solution (could be used in a pinch, but not really what it's designed for), but more of a reference, planning, filing, and weather application...or what most people think of as an EFB. For that it does a great job, in my opinion.
That said, when I use ForeFlight on a cross country on the iPhone, I use it as a reference (not a moving map display). I keep it in a side pocket on my kneeboard and turn it on when I need to look something up or look at a chart real quick. Usually what I'm looking up is a frequency, runway, airport notes, or other "green book" or chart data. While on the ground, though, it's just as powerful, with an internet connection giving me current and forecast weather, weather imagery, DUATS briefings, etc...and then allowing me to file my flight plans.
I guess what I'm saying is that ForeFlight is not really a navigation solution (could be used in a pinch, but not really what it's designed for), but more of a reference, planning, filing, and weather application...or what most people think of as an EFB. For that it does a great job, in my opinion.
t0r0nad0
Pattern Altitude
Right - it is marketed as a 'preflight intelligence' tool. To help you with flight planning and used as a reference in flight - not a primary method of navigation.
Like I said, I used it in the plane this weekend in lieu of the paper sectionals (which we did have on board as a backup). It didn't find my position for me on the chart, so I had to find it just like I would on paper charts - by pilotage.
NERD ALERT: I'm about to admit how big of an aviation dork I am.
I mentioned before that I've downloaded the VFR and IFR charts for the entire country onto it. The reason is that I do use this when I'm on commercial flights. I'll go on FlightAware and look up my flight's filed route prior to departure. I will then plot that route out on the VFR sectionals, and practice pilotage as we fly along at FL350. I actually do pretty well, so long as there's no cloud layers between us and the ground.
This brings up one very minor criticism I do have - Tyson, I hope you're still looking at this. When you type in a route to plot, it doesn't recognize airways or SIDS/STARS. Is that something you guys are working on?
For example, if I type in:
KIAH LFK5 LIT J180 FTZ BENKY1 KORD
It doesn't recognize LFK5, J180, or BENKY1, but it will plot the route on the points it does know. So, if I want to plot the full route, I have to look up the SID plate to get those waypoints, look at the IFR High Enroute chart to get the waypoints on J180, then look at the STAR plate to get the waypoints into ORD.
I then end up typing it in as:
KIAH KYANN COLET LFK SKKIP LIT FTZ GROOV BDF BENKY NEWRK DACKS JERRY AUDRE JORJO MONKZ TONIE BABUU KORD FL350 450KTS
Then it plots the route just fine. I can understand if the SIDS/STARS would be an issue, but including support for V, T, J, and Q airways would be a great enhancement.
Everskyward
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I can see how it would be useful as a preflight tool, not so much as a reference in flight and in no way a primary means of navigation.
I noticed that too.
t0r0nad0
Pattern Altitude
It works as an in-flight reference to check the sectional and to look up the airport info. The Airport Directory it downloads is the same info as in the AOPA A/FD app that you can get for free from them if you're an AOPA member. I used it this last weekend to find the CTAF at KSEP and find the Ft. Worth Center freq to contact on our departure from that airport.
jesse
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On an iPad - with the larger screen - it seems to me that it would work wonderfully in flight to view low enroutes and approach plates.
Everskyward
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I was mainly commenting on the use of the GPS feature inflight. I can see how viewing charts might work well on an iPad but not on an iPhone.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Agree. I've played with it in the airplane on an iPhone and to me Foreflight simply isn't worth the money. On an iPad - where I could comfortably use it for charts it would be.
jimbtv
Pre-Flight
And therefore we reach the cunumdrum of every software developer who delivers their product to the public... the ubiquitous, "Ya, but only if it could..."
It would be really nice if ForeFlight could make me a milkshake too, but that isn't what it was designed to do. Looking at their website again, I cannot find any reference to the software acting as a moving map in an aircraft.
It does WHAT it was designed to do, and it does it quite nicely. Being disappointed that it can't pull down cell towers and GPS coordinates from 35,000 feet, from the "window seat" of an airliner... I mean, come on... somehow that translates into a software product that doesn't live up to its billing?
Look at what it says it will do, then tell me how it doesn't do it. Once this information is parsed I will be more sensitive to the bad press presented here.
It would be really nice if ForeFlight could make me a milkshake too, but that isn't what it was designed to do. Looking at their website again, I cannot find any reference to the software acting as a moving map in an aircraft.
It does WHAT it was designed to do, and it does it quite nicely. Being disappointed that it can't pull down cell towers and GPS coordinates from 35,000 feet, from the "window seat" of an airliner... I mean, come on... somehow that translates into a software product that doesn't live up to its billing?
Look at what it says it will do, then tell me how it doesn't do it. Once this information is parsed I will be more sensitive to the bad press presented here.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think it will keep updating the position for a short time after the screen is off, but I'm not sure how long. Also, what Bill said - on an iPhone, you'll want to connect it to a power source. On the iPad, however, you've got plenty of battery life. I used the iPad with ForeFlight on the flight from Madison to Philly in the 182 and it worked great!
Everskyward
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I'm not "disappointed" because I'm not even in the market for Foreflight. Somebody suggested that I download it as a way to test the GPS in my 3G iPhone, so I did. But that test didn't work very well, obviously.
sba55
En-Route
Mari - make sure you're downloading the right app. If you search for foreflight in the App Store, it'll be the first one in the list. It comes with what looks like a full free subscription for a month. It lets you download approach plates, airport diagrams - not sure about sectionals and such, although this trial subscription appears to not be limited...Well, the only charts it will let me download without a subscription are the airport diagrams. I downloaded Colorado. Now I've got to find an airport with no cell phone service.
I just tried ForeFlight and I have to say that I'm very, very impressed. First, I'm amazed that someone made such a polished app for what must be a very small audience. Second, well, the app is very polished. Third, it's very useful - I could even see myself using it for diagrams, approach plates (even on the iPhone, definitely on an iPad), and charts. Truly amazing!
-Felix
Everskyward
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The one I downloaded was the first one on the list "Foreflight Mobile 3 HD Aviation and Preflight Intelligence".
sba55
En-Route
That's the one. Looks like you can't download charts in the trial version after all. It will let you display plates, but I don't think it stores them....
Okay, OP commenting now. I think I started "throwing stones" in this case. I think it is only fair to state that I've been the recipient of some impressive customer service after posting my PIREP. Shortly after my post, I received an e-mail that made me feel like they cared ... they don't have a solution, but they are interested in working with me to see if they can help solve my problems. As far as I'm concerned, that goes a LONG way.
Second comment is that I NEVER asked for my money back. I see the value in this app on an iPhone. I've been using it and I don't want to delete it ... thus, I pay for it. That said, I can also see how some people wouldn't see a compelling value proposition.
What I don't understand is the amazing positive press to date this app has received. This app is the ONLY app on my iPhone that crashes regularly. I use WSJ, NPR, Skype, TripIt, MotionX, ChinesePod, AOPA Airports and a half dozen other downloaded applications and none crash as consistently as ForeFlight (okay ... Google Earth is such a slug I have to kill it before it crashes, but that's about it).
Now to the reason I post this response:
"Look at what it says it will do, then tell me how it doesn't do it. Once this information is parsed I will be more sensitive to the bad press presented here."
1) Every time I start ForeFlight, I get prompted for my iTunes login and password every few minutes. This is the ONLY application that does this.
2) When I try to zoom in on the map page, it regularly kicks me out of the program. Zoom in, it crashes.
3) The paid version of ForeFlight has a substantially less useful "Airports" selection than the free version of AOPA Airports that is "Powered by ForeFlight". This is something that I just don't understand. In AOPA Airports, at the top of the screen is a search pane. If I want to look up and airport, I simply enter the identifier and it looks it up. Within ForeFlight Mobile V3, choose Airports and, first, I have to hit cancel to the password prompt, and second there is no search pane. Within ForeFlight all you can do is search by state and then name, and that is all done within the iPhone scrolling fields like in you contact list. How does this make sense?
4) As of this week, NEXRAD looping is working (when it doesn't lock up on a 3G). Last week I always had a storm over central Indiana in the loop. This week, that storm is gone and I get a good radar loop. Maybe if you are a MS junkie that is a feature, but to me that is a bug.
5) Finally, I have an iPhone that has a GPS and I just paid $80 for an application that has geo-referenced charts. I pretty much expect that the mapping app takes advantage of this ... assuming I have downloaded the maps, which I have. I don't expect that I need a cell phone signal ... I have a GPS and I've loaded geo-referenced charts. I start the app on the ground where I have a cell phone signal. It shows my correct location on the airport ... this means GPS and NOT cell phone triangulation. Now, I take off and somewhere around 7,000 feet I get a loss of cell phone signal and loss of location on the map. This is not as represented.
All in all, I think ForeFlight is a useful app. That said, the hype over this program is, in my opinion, WAY over the top. This is the single buggiest program I have on my iPhone. It is quickly becoming one of the most used, but that just highlights the "bugginess" of the program. Any program that forces you to learn a way to work around fundamental stability issues is simply not well developed (coming from a guy who only knows how to program in FORTRAN).
Would I recommend ForeFlight to other pilots? Yes, but with LOTS of qualifications as to stability, functionality and value. For the right pilot, this is a great program, but the universal positive press simply is not accurate, in my experience. I'd be less bothered by the delta between my experience and the press I've read if I'd paid $9.99 for the application. But for $80, I expect the application to work and work as advertised. It hasn't met my expectations ... it is still valuable enough to keep and not complain about value, but it certainly doesn't deserve the amazing press it gets.
Everskyward
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I have been thinking (dangerous thing) about this whole GPS idea. I'll admit that I didn't know anything about ForeFlight before I downloaded it as an experiment to test the GPS and I'll admit that my test wasn't the fairest. But if you can't use the GPS in the air, why even have that function? If you are on the ground planning your flight you should already know where you are.
Or am I missing something?
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yup. The FF guys give great customer service.
Something is REALLY wrong there. The only thing that should prompt that is in-app purchase, and the only in-app purchase you can make in FF is a subscription. This, plus the overall crashiness, makes me wonder if you somehow got a corrupted download of ForeFlight. Were I you, I would delete it from the iPhone, delete it from iTunes, and then get back on the store and download a fresh copy and see if that helps.
You do NOT go into Airports on FF - There is a search pane on the main screen, type the ID in there or hit the target button on the lower left to find the nearest airports.
I agree that this is a UI inconsistency that should be fixed, so both the search pane and target button should be added to the Airports screen as well. But you can use the search pane right on the main page to go straight to an airport.
Are you letting the iPhone go to sleep, exiting ForeFlight, or otherwise letting the location be "forgotten" at all? I've had no problem on my iPhone or iPad keeping the GPS location after the cell signal is gone, unless I go do something else and it has to re-acquire my location.
Again, I think something is wrong either with your copy of ForeFlight, or maybe even a hardware issue on your iPhone. I've never even heard of anyone else experiencing the kinds of issues I've quoted above. (Your #'s 2 and 4 I believe are a known issue with memory that they are working to address.) I know that in my own experience, SkyCharts was way slower and crashed way more than ForeFlight. IME, crashes on ForeFlight are exceedingly rare on my 3GS, even in the beta versions.
Let us know what happens after you delete & reinstall, I'm curious if that'll help. BTW, what version of the iPhone OS are you running?
Steve
En-Route
Yes, the required geekiness for believing you actually need all this technology....
alaskaflyer
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I just downloaded the latest update to FF Mobile 3 pushed from the iTunes store and the weather graphics looping issue appears to have been fixed.
ghogue
Pre-takeoff checklist
A friend had this problem with his iPhone, but not related to FF. He took it into an AT&T store where a tech did some type of reset and the problem disappeared. Might work for you.
sdflyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just got Pilot my Cast 8.0 for my Google Nexus One. I paid $129 from android market which covers life time subscription on the product, and I'm very happy so far. I tried ForeFlight before, but it didn't work well - worse than that it gave incorrect information..