Foreflight & Mooney

Cpt_Kirk

Cpt_Kirk

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Ted Striker
I ran into an issue I've never had before when filing with Foreflight. I was flying a '64 M20E (Super 21) and when the flight plan asked for aircraft type, it kept rejecting "M20E." I tried other inputs but nothing worked.

I finally called 1-800-WX-BRIEF on the way to the airport and filed the "old fashioned way." :D He mentioned that all normally aspirated Mooney's are added in as "M20P" and turbocharged models are some other input that I don't remember (really nice guy, by the way). I don't see anyway where I could have avoided this problem or found the information explaining why it is this way. Are there any other types that are like this when filing? :dunno:

I just put two more in using Foreflight and the "M20P" designator and it took both of them.
 
There's a difference between the model and the ICAO/FAA designation. One of the best examples is the many, many models of the Cessna 172. It's up to what these days, S? But for filing it's still the C172. For Mooney M20, only the P for pistion and T for turbo are recognized.
 
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Back when we phoned in flight plans, the briefers knew the right codes even when we didn't, and they just entered them on their own after you told them what you were flying. OTOH, ForeFlight is preset to accept only the official FAA designators for aircraft type. If you're not sure what yours is, check here -- look for Appendix A, starting on page 447. For example, all the following Mooneys are an M20P:

M-20, M-20/A/B/C/D/E/F/G/J/L/R/S,
Mark 21, Allegro, Eagle, Ranger,​
Master, Super 21, Chaparral,​
Executive, Statesman, Ovation, 201,​
202, 205, 220, ATS, MSE,​
PFM (nonturbocharged engine)
 
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In addition to making sure you're using an official FAA code, that you use only uppercase. Foreflight started a while back gagging on entering indentifiers in lower case. I had "navi" stored for a long time and then it stopped working until I inserted NAVI instead. When I suggested that they might want to fix that, FF support told me to pound sand. Seriously considering trying one of the competitors.
 
Seems like an item ripe for a look-up feature in ForeFlight. I've been frustrated by that a time or two myself.
 
murphey said:
There's a difference between the model and the ICAO/FAA designation. One of the best examples is the many, many models of the Cessna 172. It's up to what these days, S? But for filing it's still the C172. For Mooney M20, only the P for pistion and T for turbo are recognized.
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PA28 is the worst, the ICAO code is P28A. So few people know this that ForeFlight will just auto-correct it behind the scenes.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
He mentioned that all normally aspirated Mooney's are added in as "M20P" and turbocharged models are some other input that I don't remember (really nice guy, by the way).
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M20T for a turbo Mooney. I flew one up to Minnesota about a week ago and spent most of the drive to the airport (girlfriend was driving) on poor cellular data service trying to find the right type code to file the IFR plan.

On that note a '08 Mooney Acclaim Type S w/ TKS and G1000 synthetic vision is a damn fine airplane.
 
AustinPilot said:
PA28 is the worst, the ICAO code is P28A. So few people know this that ForeFlight will just auto-correct it behind the scenes.
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some of them are P28B, just to keep it interesting...
 
AustinPilot said:
PA28 is the worst, the ICAO code is P28A
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P28A = fixed gear under 200 hp
P28B = fixed gear 200 hp+ (including 200 hp "Turbo Dakota")
P28R = normally-aspirated low-tail Arrows
P28S = turbocharged low-tail Arrows
P28T = normally-aspirated T-tail Arrows
P28U = turbocharged T-tail Arrows

The identifier can't have more than four characters. So while a fixed-gear Cessna 172 is "C172", the retractable 172RG Cutlass RG is "C72R".
 
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Thanks everyone. The trip today went off fine, except for the last minute departure and route changes.

I filed two more for tomorrow under the designator "PA32." I hope that means Turbo Saratoga because FF accepted it.

One more thing, let's say that tonight I filed for a wheels up time of 1200 tomorrow but the pax is ready at 0930 tomorrow. How early am I able to pick up the clearance for the same flight plan? I'm sure I've read it somewhere but it's long disappeared from my memory. A direction to an FAR or AIM section would suffice. Thanks in advance.

edit: I'm looking in the AIM.
 
Just out of curiosity, how long ago was it that the FAA started using these type designators? I can't recall if they were already in use when I started filing with DUAT about 23-35 years ago.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
One more thing, let's say that tonight I filed for a wheels up time of 1200 tomorrow but the pax is ready at 0930 tomorrow. How early am I able to pick up the clearance for the same flight plan? I'm sure I've read it somewhere but it's long disappeared from my memory. A direction to an FAR or AIM section would suffice. Thanks in advance.

edit: I'm looking in the AIM.
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AFAIK, it's not discussed in the AIM. There is a discussion of the timing in the Instrument Flying Handbook. So you don't have to search for it...

The briefer sends a flight plan to the host computer at the ARTCC (Center). After processing the flight plan, the computer sends flight strips to the tower, to the radar facility that handles the departure route, and to the Center controller whose sector the flight first enters. Figure 2-6 shows a typical strip. These strips are delivered approximately 30 minutes prior to the proposed departure time. Strips are delivered to en route facilities 30 minutes before the flight is expected to enter their airspace. If a flight plan is not opened, it will “time out” 2 hours after the proposed departure time. (my emphasis)​

That's pretty much our window also. Once the strip is in the ATC system, 30 minutes before out flight, we can open our flight plan.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just out of curiosity, how long ago was it that the FAA started using these type designators? I can't recall if they were already in use when I started filing with DUAT about 23-35 years ago.
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FAA was using a system of type designators back in the 1970s, but didn't adopt the ICAO system until some years later (late 1990s maybe?). Here's a card that Piper distributed to ATC facilities in 1979. Some of the designators are different from what are used today (e.g., 'PA-RO' for Arrows instead of P28R/S/T/U, 'PA-ZT' for Aztecs instead of PA27, etc.). I remember filling out flight plans using 'PA-RO' for Turbo Arrow IVs in the early 1990s.

Note that Piper only provided specs that would be of use to controllers -- cruise speed, gear extension speed, final approach speed, rate of climb, climb in feet per NM, and take-off and landing ground roll.

PCIG-01.jpg


PCIG-02.jpg


Ron Levy said:
...or P28R or P28B or P28T -- you have to check in the document I linked above to be sure.
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See Post #10 above.
 
midlifeflyer said:
AFAIK, it's not discussed in the AIM. There is a discussion of the timing in the Instrument Flying Handbook. So you don't have to search for it...

The briefer sends a flight plan to the host computer at the ARTCC (Center). After processing the flight plan, the computer sends flight strips to the tower, to the radar facility that handles the departure route, and to the Center controller whose sector the flight first enters. Figure 2-6 shows a typical strip. These strips are delivered approximately 30 minutes prior to the proposed departure time. Strips are delivered to en route facilities 30 minutes before the flight is expected to enter their airspace. If a flight plan is not opened, it will “time out” 2 hours after the proposed departure time. (my emphasis)​

That's pretty much our window also. Once the strip is in the ATC system, 30 minutes before out flight, we can open our flight plan.
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Since filing is a one click process, and since I can fill that all out in advance, I almost never file more than 15 minutes in advance.
 
I've always had better luck with all thing filing when using FltPlan instead.
 
James331 said:
I've always had better luck with all thing filing when using FltPlan instead.
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I've never, ever, had an issue filing via Foreflight. Not once has ATC not had my plan. I can't say the same when I did it via 800-WX-BRIEF years ago.
 
I generally file at the end if my weather briefing, using 800-WX-BRIEF. Quick, easy, painless and recorded for posterity, just in case.

It's coming up time to figure out what to replace "/G" with. It's guaranteed to be a long string of stuff that I won't remember . . .
 
jesse said:
I've never, ever, had an issue filing via Foreflight. Not once has ATC not had my plan. I can't say the same when I did it via 800-WX-BRIEF years ago.
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Issues, no, just one is a better tool.

I use fore flight for quite a bit, planning, charts, plates, GOM, MEL, lake contour maps, AFM, W&B, enroute, etc.

But for flight plans and more accurate enroute times and fuel burns FltPlan is just a better tool and it's free so I use both.

Hank S said:
I generally file at the end if my weather briefing, using 800-WX-BRIEF. Quick, easy, painless and recorded for posterity, just in case.

It's coming up time to figure out what to replace "/G" with. It's guaranteed to be a long string of stuff that I won't remember . . .
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Like I said above, FltPlan is just better for this stuff, I check all the boxes, read the little help pop ups and my / code is all set up, IACO etc.

Also when I brief and file its logged on there too

Add to that I can log in and file and brief from any internet connected device.

Two different tools, foreflight just isn't nearly the best tool for putting a flight plan together or getting accurate times enroute or fuel burns.
 
James331 said:
Issues, no, just one is a better tool.

I use fore flight for quite a bit, planning, charts, plates, GOM, MEL, lake contour maps, AFM, W&B, enroute, etc.

But for flight plans and more accurate enroute times and fuel burns FltPlan is just a better tool and it's free so I use both.




Like I said above, FltPlan is just better for this stuff, I check all the boxes, read the little help pop ups and my / code is all set up, IACO etc.

Also when I brief and file its logged on there too

Add to that I can log in and file and brief from any internet connected device.

Two different tools, foreflight just isn't nearly the best tool for putting a flight plan together or getting accurate times enroute or fuel burns.
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I agree, but all the fancy features aren't that useful to me flying light singles. I don't want something to calculate much of anything, just do it in my head, and it doesn't need to be that accurate for what I do.
 
My FltPlan account has expired on me... twice. I just hate the overall layout. It's **** splattered on a piece of paper with a shotgun as far as I'm concerned.

I don't need extremely accurate numbers. My reserves on landing are more than enough. The issue with FF is that I need a WiFi connection. I'm thinking I should make another FltPlan account for time when I have no WiFi but can use cellular data.
 
Also, I knew that it was printed 30 mins prior, I just didn't know if they had a way of pulling it out of the system more than that 30 minute window.
 
It isn't ForeFlight that rejects the flightplan because of an incorrect aircraft type, it is the FAA system.
 
jesse said:
I agree, but all the fancy features aren't that useful to me flying light singles. I don't want something to calculate much of anything, just do it in my head, and it doesn't need to be that accurate for what I do.
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This is true.

I'm surprised foreflight doesn't have some validation feature when you enter in your aircraft type.

With how they stay on top of it in updates, I'm sure it's just around the corner.
 
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