Foreflight caves and adds ADS-B traffic

denverpilot

denverpilot

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The market has spoken, looks like.

Latest Foreflight just added Stratus 1 & 2 traffic display support. Stratus 1 needs a firmware update.

They went where the market dictated and kept their stern warning that if you're not ADS-B Out equipped you won't see traffic unless someone nearby is...

Other niceties: They merged plates so there's not a separate page 1 and 2, you can now swipe between them.
 
denverpilot said:
They went where the market dictated and kept their stern warning that if you're not ADS-B Out equipped you won't see traffic unless someone nearby is...
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Hasn't that been everyone's warning (ie not just ForeFlight)???
 
Sometimes you need to be able to check the box for feature X, no matter how stupid it is. Seems like that's what's happening here.
 
What happens if you don't have ADS-B out? You can still see other planes, they just can't see you, right?
 
I am disappointed. I was hoping for a split screen option for instrument panels or charts as in Garmin Pilot.

I find myself using Garmin more than foreflight for this simple feature.
 
SkyHog said:
What happens if you don't have ADS-B out? You can still see other planes, they just can't see you, right?
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I believe it is the other way around. You need the ADS-B out or you must be within the footprint of another ADS-B out equipped airplane in order to see traffic.

The key to it is the ADS-B out GPS signal that provides a grid reference for displaying other traffic. The way I understand it , it functions alot like some of the data link systems the military uses.
 
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Unlike ADS-B weather, traffic is not continuously broadcasted from ADS-B antenna locations. Traffic is only broadcast after being interogated by an aircraft with a certified ADS-B out avionics. So unless you're near another aircraft with ADS-B out, you will not reliably get traffic.
 
So unless you're near another aircraft with ADS-B out, you will not reliably get traffic.
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Not quite. What you get is the traffic in an imaginary hockey puck that surrounds the ADS-B out airplane. So the only way you get "reliable" traffic is if you are at the center of the puck as he is. If you are near the edge of the puck there can be a lot of traffic around you that is not in the puck and hence not being identified to him and, thus, not showing on your screen. And you have no idea where he/the center of the puck is! False security, in other words. Very false.

That's my understanding anyway.
 
ads-b traffic is useless without ads-b out.
 
airdale said:
Not quite. What you get is the traffic in an imaginary hockey puck that surrounds the ADS-B out airplane. So the only way you get "reliable" traffic is if you are at the center of the puck as he is. If you are near the edge of the puck there can be a lot of traffic around you that is not in the puck and hence not being identified to him and, thus, not showing on your screen. And you have no idea where he/the center of the puck is! False security, in other words. Very false.

That's my understanding anyway.
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That is a great way to describe it.
This is to reciever the ADS-B R or rebroadcast, which will have aircraft data from both ADS-B frequencies 1090 and 968? UAT, plus standard Mode C radar returns that do not have ADS-B Out. The rebroadcast picture is built around the airplane with ADSB Out.

You should recieve broadcasts from ADSB Out aircraft directly if the are within line of sight, but you would not recieve a standard Mode C 1200 squawk unless it is picked up by ATC radar and rebroadcast.
 
You should receive broadcasts from ADSB Out aircraft directly if the are within line of sight ...
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I have been told by a Stratus owner that the Stratus and at least some of the other non-TSO units do not receive the direct broadcasts, only the signal from the ground stations. That seems plausible given the low cost of the hardware but whether it is true or an OWT I do not know.
 
Its a pretty dumb reason not to include the feature....if you have someone with ADS-B out at your 3 o'clock, and one at your 9 o'clock, you should have a pretty good view of traffic.

But to not offer the feature smacks of something Apple would do.
 
What on earth does Apple have to do with it?


SkyHog said:
Its a pretty dumb reason not to include the feature....if you have someone with ADS-B out at your 3 o'clock, and one at your 9 o'clock, you should have a pretty good view of traffic.

But to not offer the feature smacks of something Apple would do.
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What on earth does Apple have to do with it?
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I understood right away.

He's referring to Apple's arrogance -- telling users how to behave and what they can and can't do. I ditched my iPad in favor of a Nexus 7 a few months ago because I got sick of Apples crummy software and arrogant attitude.

I'm not sure ForeFlight's original decision to suppress the ADS-B traffic rises to the level of telling users they can't see Flash content because the Dear Departed didn't like Adobe, but it's a similar thing. (In Foreflight's defense, IMHO suppression of a misleading traffic depiction is a safety issue more than a control freak issue.)
 
airdale said:
I understood right away.

He's referring to Apple's arrogance -- telling users how to behave and what they can and can't do. I ditched my iPad in favor of a Nexus 7 a few months ago because I got sick of Apples crummy software and arrogant attitude.

I'm not sure ForeFlight's original decision to suppress the ADS-B traffic rises to the level of telling users they can't see Flash content because the Dear Departed didn't like Adobe, but it's a similar thing. (In Foreflight's defense, IMHO suppression of a misleading traffic depiction is a safety issue more than a control freak issue.)
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I'm glad to see that the market demonstrated that Apple was wrong about mobile Flash.

ForeFlight chose not to support traffic because, according to what they posted on their blog, displaying traffic was of limited utility at the time Stratus was released due to the scarcity of ADS-B Out and of appropriate ground stations. ADS-B Out is, I suspect, much more prevalent now in high-density traffic areas, and ground stations are more ubiquitous is those areas as well.

ForeFlight appears to deliberately choose to delay features until they can get the implementation right and the functionality works well. The same cannot be said of the competition. For the most part, Apple follows this same model.


JKG
 
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airdale said:
In Foreflight's defense, IMHO suppression of a misleading traffic depiction is a safety issue more than a control freak issue.
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Exactly. This has nothing to do with telling people what they can and can't do with the software and everything to do with the standard legal disclaimers. It's a CYA thing. Not everyone is going to really put the time into understanding how the system works. They are going to see a new gadget, hear that it will give you traffic and the launch into oblivion without any clue about the size or number of the holes in the Swiss cheese. The disclaimer is there to limit their liability when the midair happens and the families sue because the deceased had this new gadget that was supposed to locate the traffic.

It is also there to limit the number of complaints and demands for money back from people who tend to buy first and ask questions later....'I bought this new product that said I could display traffic and I haven't seen anything show up on the screen!'
 
Fearless Tower said:
I believe it is the other way around. You need the ADS-B out or you must be within the footprint of another ADS-B out equipped airplane in order to see traffic.

The key to it is the ADS-B out GPS signal that provides a grid reference for displaying other traffic. The way I understand it , it functions alot like some of the data link systems the military uses.
Click to expand...

That's only an issue WRT the rebroadcast of area traffic from a ground station (which can include non-participating aircraft picked up on radar). If you have ADS-B in you should see all traffic in your vicinity that have ADS-B out on the same frequency you are set up to receive. But given the low percentage of airplanes with ADS-B out today, missing out on the ground station's transmissions is losing out on the bigger part of the traffic picture.
 
gismo said:
That's only an issue WRT the rebroadcast of area traffic from a ground station (which can include non-participating aircraft picked up on radar). If you have ADS-B in you should see all traffic in your vicinity that have ADS-B out on the same frequency you are set up to receive. But given the low percentage of airplanes with ADS-B out today, missing out on the ground station's transmissions is losing out on the bigger part of the traffic picture.
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In other words, unless you are flying near big airports with a lot of commercial traffic, all you will see is the occasional jet going overhead (if you are lucky).
 
They have never told me what to do or how to behave. LOL
AND, I thought adobe killed flash.


airdale said:
I understood right away.

He's referring to Apple's arrogance -- telling users how to behave and what they can and can't do. I ditched my iPad in favor of a Nexus 7 a few months ago because I got sick of Apples crummy software and arrogant attitude.

I'm not sure ForeFlight's original decision to suppress the ADS-B traffic rises to the level of telling users they can't see Flash content because the Dear Departed didn't like Adobe, but it's a similar thing. (In Foreflight's defense, IMHO suppression of a misleading traffic depiction is a safety issue more than a control freak issue.)
Click to expand...
 
gismo said:
That's only an issue WRT the rebroadcast of area traffic from a ground station (which can include non-participating aircraft picked up on radar). If you have ADS-B in you should see all traffic in your vicinity that have ADS-B out on the same frequency you are set up to receive. But given the low percentage of airplanes with ADS-B out today, missing out on the ground station's transmissions is losing out on the bigger part of the traffic picture.
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What about the GPS out signal for accurate reference? I know very little about the data transfer rate with ADS-B, but if you are flying along in an airplane and traffic is being displayed based puerly on position from a ground reference versus based on your aircraft position, I wouldn't think the accuracy of the traffic displayed would be very good.
 
gismo said:
That's only an issue WRT the rebroadcast of area traffic from a ground station (which can include non-participating aircraft picked up on radar). If you have ADS-B in you should see all traffic in your vicinity that have ADS-B out on the same frequency you are set up to receive. But given the low percentage of airplanes with ADS-B out today, missing out on the ground station's transmissions is losing out on the bigger part of the traffic picture.
Click to expand...

I don't have ADS-B in my aircraft (172), and am waiting for everything to shake out over the next few years. I have flown with it in other planes. In the parts of the NE where we fly, most of what you see on the ADS-B traffic is the big iron moving in and out of the terminal areas. Right now very very few GA targets appear. I found many more GA targets on the TIS system when we used both side by side on a flight.

But, like others have said, the systems (ADS-B or TIS) are swiss cheese, and I don't care to become complacent using them or keeping my head inside the plane staring at traffic on a screen when I should be outside the plane. If you keep it in the perspective of advisory information only, then they are both good tools, but they can trap you pretty quickly IMHO. YMMV
 
Fearless Tower said:
What about the GPS out signal for accurate reference? I know very little about the data transfer rate with ADS-B, but if you are flying along in an airplane and traffic is being displayed based puerly on position from a ground reference versus based on your aircraft position, I wouldn't think the accuracy of the traffic displayed would be very good.
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ADS-B Out requires a GPS input source. Traffic from the ground station is broadcast as a result of a client inquiry from an ADS-B Out source, and responds to that inquiry based upon the source's GPS position.

At least, that is my understanding of the system.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
ADS-B Out requires a GPS input source. Traffic from the ground station is broadcast as a result of a client inquiry from an ADS-B Out source, and responds to that inquiry based upon the source's GPS position.

At least, that is my understanding of the system.


JKG
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That is kind of my concern - if you don't have ADS-B out providing the positional reference, it seems like there is a potential for inaccuracy in the display of traffic that you receive based on another aircraft's ADS-B query. Depending on your relative position and distance to the traffic, some contacts might be very accurate while others could be considerably off.

Does anyone know of a handy reference to read up on how exactly all the ADS-B stuff works? I will be the first to admit that I do not know all the inner workings of the system, so I am basing my understanding off similar data link systems we use in the military.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is kind of my concern - if you don't have ADS-B out providing the positional reference, it seems like there is a potential for inaccuracy in the display of traffic that you receive based on another aircraft's ADS-B query. Depending on your relative position and distance to the traffic, some contacts might be very accurate while others could be considerably off.
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The TIS-B and ADS-R responses from the ground station only contain traffic target position, velocity, ID, etc. It is up to the receiving system in the aircraft to display the position of the traffic data relative to the position of the receiving aircraft.

The problem is that unless you are transmitting a position with ADS-B Out, you may only receive a small portion of traffic data relative to your aircraft, since you would be intercepting a reception tailored to the vicinity of a transmitting aircraft. The theory goes, however, that something is often better than nothing.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
The problem is that unless you are transmitting a position with ADS-B Out, you may only receive a small portion of traffic data relative to your aircraft, since you would be intercepting a reception tailored to the vicinity of a transmitting aircraft. The theory goes, however, that something is often better than nothing.


JKG
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It is, so long as one understands that it is only "something" and reliance must be limited.
 
How do you know whether there is no traffic in your vicinity or that the Foreflight is unable to display traffic in your area? Is there some sort of warning for this like on TCAS systems? On the Garmin 530 the TCAS display shows STANDBY whenever I fly below radar coverage or on the ground when using the Monroy Traffic Watch.

José
 
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Brad Z said:
Unlike ADS-B weather, traffic is not continuously broadcasted from ADS-B antenna locations. Traffic is only broadcast after being interogated by an aircraft with a certified ADS-B out avionics. So unless you're near another aircraft with ADS-B out, you will not reliably get traffic.
Click to expand...

You should be able to reliably receive traffic, it is just that it won't be relevant. I certainly agree you can't depend on a portable traffic solution unless you have ADSB Out installed as you won't see the vast majority of targets that you could actually collide with.
 
JGoodish said:
The TIS-B and ADS-R responses from the ground station only contain traffic target position, velocity, ID, etc. It is up to the receiving system in the aircraft to display the position of the traffic data relative to the position of the receiving aircraft.

The problem is that unless you are transmitting a position with ADS-B Out, you may only receive a small portion of traffic data relative to your aircraft, since you would be intercepting a reception tailored to the vicinity of a transmitting aircraft. The theory goes, however, that something is often better than nothing.


JKG
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I agree something is better than nothing, but only marginally. If the portable says there is traffic and is a collision threat, believe it. If it doesn't say there is any nearby traffic, don't believe it.
 
John Collins said:
I agree something is better than nothing, but only marginally. If the portable says there is traffic and is a collision threat, believe it. If it doesn't say there is any nearby traffic, don't believe it.
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The concept is really no different than terrain or obstacle display. If an obstacle is depicted, would you trust the electronics enough that you wouldn't establish visual contact? I don't care what kind of equipment you have, if you aren't using all available information (including your eyeballs looking out the windows) then you are assuming unnecessary risk.


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
As I previously mentioned, the concept is really no different than terrain or obstacle display. If an obstacle is depicted, would you trust the electronics enough that you wouldn't establish visual contact? I don't care what kind of equipment you have, if you aren't using all available information (including your eyeballs looking out the windows) then you are assuming unnecessary risk.


JKG
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Flying at night, electronic terrain awareness would have prevented this accident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965
No matter how good your eyesight is you will not see the mountains at night or in IFR weather. The same applies for traffic and weather. The question is which one is reliable enough to trust. If you are XM\WX and TCAS equipped (like most new planes are) how will any of these (UAT/ADS-B in) gadgets benefit you? Or if you fly jets (onboard WX radar and TCAS) for what aviation segment these gadgets are for? Old piston airplanes. Comments are welcome.

José
 
Piloto said:
Flying at night, electronic terrain awareness would have prevented this accident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965
No matter how good your eyesight is you will not see the mountains at night or in IFR weather. The same applies for traffic and weather. The question is which one is reliable enough to trust. If you are XM\WX and TCAS equipped (like most new planes are) how will any of these (UAT/ADS-B in) gadgets benefit you? Or if you fly jets (onboard WX radar and TCAS) for what aviation segment these gadgets are for? Old piston airplanes. Comments are welcome.

José
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I think that it's quite speculative to suggest that terrain awareness would have prevented the crash. Following proper procedure would have prevented the crash. If a flight crew isn't willing to follow proper procedure and act on the information that they do have, to conclude that they would have acted on an additional piece of information is nothing but speculation. Many accidents have occurred with flight crews fully equipped and aware of how to prevent them.

No one is arguing against providing additional information, but there is a huge difference between using that information in a supplemental capacity versus relying on it as a sole source. Anyone who chooses to rely on a single source when other sources are available is most likely assuming unnecessary risk.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
I think that it's quite speculative to suggest that terrain awareness would have prevented the crash. Following proper procedure would have prevented the crash. If a flight crew isn't willing to follow proper procedure and act on the information that they do have, to conclude that they would have acted on an additional piece of information is nothing but speculation. Many accidents have occurred with flight crews fully equipped and aware of how to prevent them.

JKG
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That is why the FAA has mandated that all commercial aircraft be equipped with TAWS, TCAS and WX Radar. This way the pilot does not need to speculate but to avoid hazardous encounters.

José
 
Piloto said:
That is why the FAA has mandated that all commercial aircraft be equipped with TAWS, TCAS and WX Radar. This way the pilot does not need to speculate but to avoid hazardous encounters.

José
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Where did I say anything about a pilot (presumably other than you) speculating?


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
Where did I say anything about a pilot (presumably other than you) speculating?


JKG
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Is just an speculation. BTW an improperly used speculum can be very painful.

José
 
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gismo said:
That's only an issue WRT the rebroadcast of area traffic from a ground station (which can include non-participating aircraft picked up on radar). If you have ADS-B in you should see all traffic in your vicinity that have ADS-B out on the same frequency you are set up to receive. But given the low percentage of airplanes with ADS-B out today, missing out on the ground station's transmissions is losing out on the bigger part of the traffic picture.
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The issue... way down at the low-level, is ADS-B is bandwidth-limited, severely. If they'd have chosen a data rate and technology (which triggers another huge set of problems in spectrum utilization) that could have sent ALL the data they wanted the service to provide to all aircraft within the coverage area of the antenna, the whole problem with the "hocky puck" goes away.

They did the hockey-puck, because the system can't support the whole area.

Once we hit a point where every aircraft has ADS-B and the hocky pucks are everywhere... we see which ADS-B sites channel-overload first...

There's a heirarchy of what will be dropped out of the data transmissions and in what order, and how they'll back off on updates of things less critical, once you hit that point, in the spec...

All that nice Marketing fluff about ADS-B, doesn't mention the "lesser" products will eventually be hard to get around busy hubs... right where most folks will ... oh, you know... probably want them. :)

Traffic is pretty high on the list, but weather... watch the updates slow to a crawl, eventually.

By then, the system will be well-entrenched enough to ask for a few more Billions to "upgrade" it... and they'll get 2000's tech to replace the 90's tech... in 2020 or so... haha...
 
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