Foreflight and ADSB speculation...

[AggieMike88]

Recently, one of our club's Stratus2 units quit working and is being sent back for service.

This event led me to wonder what th future of EFBs and connection to the ADSB service might look and function like once 2020 rolls around.

Are portable ADSB units on "borrowed" time as more of the fleet installs a permanent panel solution?

Are our EFBs of choice going to talk to the panel unit like GP can to the current Garmin solution?

What's your guess?

 

[Chrisj13]

I have yet to buy one, but am on the verge of pulling the trigger. Knowing my luck, I will buy one and within a year the price will be down around the $100 mark. Just like the VCR I bought decades ago, the plasma TV, the "high end" camcorder, and everything else that takes power or batteries I bought over the years.
Sure would be nice to have one now, though....

 

[dans2992]

I think a lot of people are putting ADS-B out in the panel and leaving the "in" solely to portable solutions. Much more cost effective.

Unless something changes, I don't think portable units are going anywhere.

 

[madtrader]

I think a lot of people are putting ADS-B out in the panel and leaving the "in" solely to portable solutions. Much more cost effective.

Unless something changes, I don't think portable units are going anywhere.

That's exactly what I think. For the vast majority of aircraft I could afford to own this is what I'd do.

 

[jtheune]

I think that the people who already have large displays in their panel like 530s or avidynes will go the in panel route and those who don't will go the portable route. hard to justify buying the large panel display when tablets do the same work for much less. I'm waiting to see a panel mount GPS that does not have a large moving map but does output GPS information. That would allow you to use certified GPS for nav but not pay the huge cost of a large moving map display.

 

[John Collins]

Portables will be around to stay for ADS-B In. The current mandate is written such that it is confusing as item 91.227(d)(13) reads as: "An indication of whether an ADS-B In capability is installed". This wording implies that one may not set the configuration bits in a 1090ES transponder to indicate that a portable is on board. I have been told by shops and some FAA inspectors that this prevents them from setting these bits to wake up the ground station. I asked the FAA General Counsel for an opinion, it took about a year for them to respond, and they replied in part:

The FAA's intent was for this message element to indicate that the aircraft has the capability to receive ADS-B In services, not necessarily that this capability be installed. The use of the word "installed" in this section is confusing, given the specific terminology in the above referenced RTCA documents. The FAA did not intend to restrict the designation of ADS-B In capability if using portable ADS-B In receivers. Therefore, we have advised the relevant FAA program offices of this opinion and request that they consider regulatory action to address this issue.

 

[John Collins]

I think that the people who already have large displays in their panel like 530s or avidynes will go the in panel route and those who don't will go the portable route. hard to justify buying the large panel display when tablets do the same work for much less. I'm waiting to see a panel mount GPS that does not have a large moving map but does output GPS information. That would allow you to use certified GPS for nav but not pay the huge cost of a large moving map display.

The GNS430 is more than adequate to display traffic information. Many of my customers who have dual GNS430 solutions and a traffic system, leave the number two on the dedicated traffic display. Even with a single unit, traffic is displayed on the Map page and is very easy to interpret, in spite of my old eyes. When there is a target alert, it automatically switches to the traffic page and the audio wakes you up. If you are waiting for a panel mount to be marketed at a low entry price just because it does not have a moving map display, I think you are in for a long wait.

 

[rbridges]

The GNS430 is more than adequate to display traffic information. Many of my customers who have dual GNS430 solutions and a traffic system, leave the number two on the dedicated traffic display. Even with a single unit, traffic is displayed on the Map page and is very easy to interpret, in spite of my old eyes. When there is a target alert, it automatically switches to the traffic page and the audio wakes you up. If you are waiting for a panel mount to be marketed at a low entry price just because it does not have a moving map display, I think you are in for a long wait.

I have a 430W and was wondering if traffic could be displayed on it, and if it could, would it be hard to interpret. I'm scheduled to have a KT74 installed in a few weeks and planned on using my stratus 2/ipad for traffic.

 

[twiggles]

I have a 430W and was wondering if traffic could be displayed on it, and if it could, would it be hard to interpret. I'm scheduled to have a KT74 installed in a few weeks and planned on using my stratus 2/ipad for traffic.

I also find traffic very easy to interpret on my 430W. Its quite accurate and you know exactly where to look in the sky to confirm. The only issue I have is the occasional false traffic report, which usually happens when I'm low...

 

[John Collins]

I have a 430W and was wondering if traffic could be displayed on it, and if it could, would it be hard to interpret. I'm scheduled to have a KT74 installed in a few weeks and planned on using my stratus 2/ipad for traffic.

I have a GDL88 and a GNS530W installed. I also have a GTX330, but not upgraded to ES installed. With the GTX330, ES or not, it can display Mode S TIS (not to be confused with ADS-B TISB) on my GNS530W. I also have ForeFlight and a Stratus 2. I very much like the panel mount traffic and use the portable as supplemental for traffic, but primary for weather and charts. I would not change my opinion with a GNS430W. With the KT74, you can also use the non ADS-B Mode S TIS in some areas and display it on the GNS430W. I would do this if I had limited myself to just an ADS-B Out solution such as a mode ES transponder, but think the GDL88 with both ADS-B traffic and Weather are worth the additional expense (probably about an extra $1500), even on the GNS430W with its smaller screen.

I would not recommend a GA airplane install an ES transponder unless they have an operational need to fly at and above 18,000.

 

[Code90]

I have a GDL88 and a GNS530W installed. I also have a GTX330, but not upgraded to ES installed. With the GTX330, ES or not, it can display Mode S TIS (not to be confused with ADS-B TISB) on my GNS530W. I also have ForeFlight and a Stratus 2. I very much like the panel mount traffic and use the portable as supplemental for traffic, but primary for weather and charts. I would not change my opinion with a GNS430W. With the KT74, you can also use the non ADS-B Mode S TIS in some areas and display it on the GNS430W. I would do this if I had limited myself to just an ADS-B Out solution such as a mode ES transponder, but think the GDL88 with both ADS-B traffic and Weather are worth the additional expense (probably about an extra $1500), even on the GNS430W with its smaller screen.

I would not recommend a GA airplane install an ES transponder unless they have an operational need to fly at and above 18,000.

Your avionics are very similar to ours. Have 530W, 430W, GTX330 (not ES). We have talked about sending the GTX330 in for the ES upgrade (still $1500 and simple). We have the Stratus 2 to use for ADS-B in. The GDL88 is about $3500 for the box (not counting install).

Other than getting the traffic to show on the panel, what benefit would I get for the extra $? Does weather now show on your 530? I'm curious as to why you would not install ES unless need to fly above 18000. Our plane tops out at 12000 BTW.

 

[jtheune]

The GNS430 is more than adequate to display traffic information. Many of my customers who have dual GNS430 solutions and a traffic system, leave the number two on the dedicated traffic display. Even with a single unit, traffic is displayed on the Map page and is very easy to interpret, in spite of my old eyes. When there is a target alert, it automatically switches to the traffic page and the audio wakes you up. If you are waiting for a panel mount to be marketed at a low entry price just because it does not have a moving map display, I think you are in for a long wait.

There were plenty of GPS units that only displayed lat/long in the beginning of the GPS usage. What I was looking for was a GPS that displays Lat/Long and has the ability to send that out via wifi/bluetooth so the tablet could use a IFR certified position.

 

[petrolero]

Many aircraft do not have and likely will never have a MFD on which to display ADS-B "in" stuff. So handhelds will rule for those guys.

There is also a subset of aircraft that require 1090 ES "out" (for Class A airspace) that may not have 987 UAT "in" going into the panel MFD. I suspect the dual band thing will be worked out by 2020 as I already see signs of it now. But for now it is a gap.

Post-2020, the traffic feature of dual band ADS-B "in" enabled EFBs will actually be quite useful, unlike now for most of us. So for that reason I can see EFBs becoming even more popular than they are today.

That said, if the panel boxes continue to communicate with our EFBs then the demand for Stratus-type boxes may decline on the margins. But for pilots who rent, there may still be a need to have a Stratus (or equivalent) to ensure that you have what you need to feed data to your EFB.




.

 

[John Collins]

Your avionics are very similar to ours. Have 530W, 430W, GTX330 (not ES). We have talked about sending the GTX330 in for the ES upgrade (still $1500 and simple). We have the Stratus 2 to use for ADS-B in. The GDL88 is about $3500 for the box (not counting install).

Other than getting the traffic to show on the panel, what benefit would I get for the extra $? Does weather now show on your 530? I'm curious as to why you would not install ES unless need to fly above 18000. Our plane tops out at 12000 BTW.

ES is for the government, I get nothing out of it.

GDL88 GNS530W screenshots follow:

 

[John Collins]

More shots of the GDL88 weather on a trip to Oshkosh in 2013.

The first three are of FISB regional product, the last is of XM on the same flight, I have both systems installed.

 

[lucius]

ES is for the government, I get nothing out of it.

John, I am not entirely understanding your response. Say I have a 430W and a King KT-76A mode-C (a common combination). In this case the KT-74 (Mode-S with ES) gives me:
-- The cheapest way possible to have ADS-B out (by a few thousand)
-- Saving panel space by selling my old mode-C for $500 on eBay.
-- Eliminating the hassle and cost of mode-C checks every 2 years.
-- Eliminating the risk of getting grounded shall my old mode-C break.

I can get traffic and weather on my iPad on a higher resolution, UI friendly display, nicer than on a 430W (or 530W for that matter) low resolution display. For example, I get NEXRAD looping, which I won't get on the 430W (or 530W).

The only counter argument I can think of is that I can't be anonymous. But what else is there, that makes you think this is not a smart option? Regards.

 

[EppyGA]

Appareo is coming out with a transponder for ADSB-Out that will connect to a Stratus-2 unit.

http://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b/

 

[John Collins]

John, I am not entirely understanding your response. Say I have a 430W and a King KT-76A mode-C (a common combination). In this case the KT-74 (Mode-S with ES) gives me:
-- The cheapest way possible to have ADS-B out (by a few thousand)
-- Saving panel space by selling my old mode-C for $500 on eBay.
-- Eliminating the hassle and cost of mode-C checks every 2 years.
-- Eliminating the risk of getting grounded shall my old mode-C break.

I can get traffic and weather on my iPad on a higher resolution, UI friendly display, nicer than on a 430W (or 530W for that matter) low resolution display. For example, I get NEXRAD looping, which I won't get on the 430W (or 530W).

The only counter argument I can think of is that I can't be anonymous. But what else is there, that makes you think this is not a smart option? Regards.

My comments, in the same order you noted:
-- Compliance without weather or traffic on panel equipment for about a difference of $1500
-- The GDL88 is remote mounted and doesn't consume any panel space
-- You are mistaken, the mode C check for the KT74 is still required, but now costs more
-- Anything can break although I will give you that an older transponder will be more likely to break, but buy a spare from the person who installed a KT74 and sold it on eBay for $500.

The next paragraph is true regardless if you install a GDL88 or a KT74, but there is an option for the GDL88 to feed your iPad and visa versa have the iPad feed your GNS430W with flightplan data.

You lose the ability to use anonymous mode.

 

[rbridges]

ES is for the government, I get nothing out of it.

GDL88 GNS530W screenshots follow:

View attachment 36788

I know the resolution of our GNS units is not up to par with the GTN series, but that extra real estate on the 530 is nice compared to my 430.

 

[John Collins]

I know the resolution of our GNS units is not up to par with the GTN series, but that extra real estate on the 530 is nice compared to my 430.

It does have more available screen, which is nice. For traffic, the smaller map screen is not an issue. However, weather displayed on the GNS430 smaller map screen can be limiting. When I fly in an airplane with a GNS430, I turn off the data fields on the Map page except when conducting an approach. To see any of the numbers, I twist the inner small RH knob one click counter clockwise to view the numbers and one clockwise to get back to the map.

 

[lucius]

there is an option for the GDL88 to feed your iPad and visa versa have the iPad feed your GNS430W with flightplan data.

The flightstream is indeed attractive for the price of a stratus 2, and makes the GDL88 option overall more attractive.

Overall, no matter how you slice and dice it, ADS-B is an expensive retrofit.

Thank you for your insights, John!

 

[petrolero]

I want traffic on my panel box (GTN 750) for one main reason: voice alerts.

I don't know if FF offers traffic voice alerts currently (I don't think it does), but if they do runway voice alerts then traffic is sure to follow at some point. Still, I don't like connecting the iPad to my headphones. it's just not as clean as having the alerts on my panel box and hearing them the normal way. Connections get screwed up, especially if you have multiple pairs of the same headphones in the cockpit, they drop, people forget to enable them. Whatever. Panel is better.

Besides, if I have to upgrade and I already invested in a ****ing GTN 750 I want to be able to see that stuff on the panel overlaid on my OH-ficial active flight plan... and also on my iPad.

 

[wrbix]

My comments, in the same order you noted:
-- Compliance without weather or traffic on panel equipment for about a difference of $1500
-- The GDL88 is remote mounted and doesn't consume any panel space
-- You are mistaken, the mode C check for the KT74 is still required, but now costs more
-- Anything can break although I will give you that an older transponder will be more likely to break, but buy a spare from the person who installed a KT74 and sold it on eBay for $500.

The next paragraph is true regardless if you install a GDL88 or a KT74, but there is an option for the GDL88 to feed your iPad and visa versa have the iPad feed your GNS430W with flightplan data.

You lose the ability to use anonymous mode.

I'm at the point in the decision tree of:
- upgrade GTX330 to ES for OUT and use iLevil to WingX for IN, at $1500+, or
- add GDL88 to talk to my 530W for IN and OUT for $3500+

Would be nice to have the voice alerts with second option. Most of my moment to moment navigating tho is on my yoke mounted iPad so might be best to have traffic there - but too cluttered?
John, please explain your comment of the GDL88 talking to the iPad? Done via Wifi?, thru iLevil?, how?
BTW, I'm in SC - where's your preferred Avionics shop in our area?

 

[John Collins]

I'm at the point in the decision tree of:
- upgrade GTX330 to ES for OUT and use iLevil to WingX for IN, at $1500+, or
- add GDL88 to talk to my 530W for IN and OUT for $3500+

Would be nice to have the voice alerts with second option. Most of my moment to moment navigating tho is on my yoke mounted iPad so might be best to have traffic there - but too cluttered?
John, please explain your comment of the GDL88 talking to the iPad? Done via Wifi?, thru iLevil?, how?
BTW, I'm in SC - where's your preferred Avionics shop in our area?

Garmin has released a product called FlighStream. It converts the serial data from the GDL88 and the GNS530W to Bluetooth. With the Garmin Pilot App on a iPad, you can display the traffic and data from the GDL88 and send and modify flightplans on the GNS530W and download them to your iPad. It also provides the GPS position data to Garmin Pilot. FlightStream is just over a $1000 uninstalled.

I had the same choice you currently face. I chose not to upgrade the transponder to ES although it was the least expensive route. I went with the GDL88 and am glad I did. You can see the screens I posted above. I still have ForeFlight with Stratus 2 for charts, information, weather and traffic, although I use my panel mount as primary for traffic as my iPad is not mounted. Recently I was flying in the Rock Hill area and was focused inside the cockpit. Got a loud wake up call to look outside "Traffic two o'clock, same altitude, less than a mile". We quickly located the traffic, it was nice to have this feature.

 

[wrbix]

Garmin has released a product called FlighStream. It converts the serial data from the GDL88 and the GNS530W to Bluetooth. With the Garmin Pilot App on a iPad, you can display the traffic and data from the GDL88 and send and modify flightplans on the GNS530W and download them to your iPad. It also provides the GPS position data to Garmin Pilot. FlightStream is just over a $1000 uninstalled.

I had the same choice you currently face. I chose not to upgrade the transponder to ES although it was the least expensive route. I went with the GDL88 and am glad I did. You can see the screens I posted above. I still have ForeFlight with Stratus 2 for charts, information, weather and traffic, although I use my panel mount as primary for traffic as my iPad is not mounted. Recently I was flying in the Rock Hill area and was focused inside the cockpit. Got a loud wake up call to look outside "Traffic two o'clock, same altitude, less than a mile". We quickly located the traffic, it was nice to have this feature.

Voice alerts worth $2K - yeah probably.
.....and same traffic displayed on 530W AND iPad, can't be a bad thing.
Leaning toward GDL88.... can't take it with me when I go, and voice alerts may delay that time of departure
Thanks!

 

[MBDiagMan]

Mike's original question keeps ringing in my head. Given the ongoing development and production of ADS-B equipment, what are the chances that better or more cost effective solutions will make it to market before the mandate takes effect?

The 1090 ES and a stratus with FF seem to be a somewhat economical solution at this point, but will it be obsoleted, or at least eclipsed by better, more cost effective solutions before the time that the mandate takes effect?

 

[John Collins]

Mike's original question keeps ringing in my head. Given the ongoing development and production of ADS-B equipment, what are the chances that better or more cost effective solutions will make it to market before the mandate takes effect?

The 1090 ES and a stratus with FF seem to be a somewhat economical solution at this point, but will it be obsoleted, or at least eclipsed by better, more cost effective solutions before the time that the mandate takes effect?

Currently, adding a 1090ES is a very expensive route if you do not already have an installed WAAS GPS that is compatible with the particular transponder. Even if you do have a compatible WAAS GPS, it is still a relatively expensive solution unless you also already have a GTX330 installed that only needs to be upgraded to ES. When transponders with a built in position source are available (none are as of today), then the transponder route will be competitive price wise with the current UAT route, even though it will not include any ADS-B traffic or weather capability.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

With Gsrmin's flight stream 210 you can best of both, have them displayed on in panel as well as iPad

 

[ki4lzk]

With th stratus2/appareo transponder combination, is there any reason foreflight would not be able to be certified for IFR navigation.

 

[ahkahn]

Thanks for sharing, it's really helpful to see what the displays look like. I'm having a tough time making a decision on which route I will take.

Yesterday I was flying in my airplane with a friend who had Foreflight on an iPad air. About 5 minutes into the flight, he lost the GPS signal never to pick it back up. The charts still worked fine, but GPS location didn't. I have another friend with an iPad that has shut down (due to excessive heat) three different times I was in his plane with him as a safety pilot. He was using iPad for approach plates, I had paper approach plates printed off the internet for free. So my limited experience with EFBs is not that great. For this reason, I am considering making sure my ADS-B in information is displayed in panel mounted devices.

Does anyone have pics showing what traffic looks like on a GTN650? I'm still having trouble accepting the price difference between the 650 and 750.

I have no idea what your buddy was doing with his equipment, but I've logged around 100 hours over 6 months with my iPad/Foreflight/Stratus and have done about 60 approaches in that time and have only had the thing crash on me once... and that was right after an iOS upgrade. It took about 30 seconds to bring the approach plate back up.

For what it's worth, I mount it on the yoke. Your buddy probably lost his signal because he wasn't using an external GPS (Stratus, etc). The internal one is not sufficient for reliable use in an aircraft.

This business from the anti-EFB people is silly in my opinion... An iPad is faster, more detailed, and just as accurate as a panel mounted unit. It can do infinitely more than paper can do. Your paper charts are wonderful.. until you have an emergency and have to divert to an airport that you didn't anticipate, and didn't print your free chart out from the Internet. That is, unless, you go on a long haul flight and buy 20 pounds of chart books for every area along your way.

 

[John Collins]

With th stratus2/appareo transponder combination, is there any reason foreflight would not be able to be certified for IFR navigation.

The Stratus 2 is a portable device and is not certified. It may be used with ForeFlight and an iPad as an EFB, but the combination only provides supplemental information and situational awareness. A future Appareo transponder with a built in position source would be approved for ADS-B Out and would be certified to several TSO's, at least TSO C112 (Mode S transponder), TSO C166b (ADS-B Out 1090ES) and TSO C145 (GPS WAAS Sensor).

 

[ki4lzk]

My point is with the waas capability of the transponder you would have a dedicated unit that is certified.

 

[Stewartb]

Hot off today's email from Garmin. ADS-B in and out.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-...nt=&utm_campaign=November+Aviation+Newsletter

 

[ahkahn]

Hot off today's email from Garmin. ADS-B in and out.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-...nt=&utm_campaign=November+Aviation+Newsletter

You know, the part about this Garmin unit that is really ****ing me off is that they are trying to be like Apple or Google and locking you into their eco-system. I really like the Garmin offering when it comes to avionics, but I am not happy with their iPad app. I like using ForeFlight. When Garmin is locking their in-dash hardware with their iPad app, that makes me want to run from it. A real turnoff. I know they're trying to push their app, but come on guys, this is ridiculous. On the other hand, ForeFlight is not innocent in this matter. They've partnered with Apperio and have locked that functionality into that family. The most promising was the Aspen Connected Panel... which ties everyone together. Once these companies realize that they cannot lock you into their entire family, and start embracing other products, they'll end up adding better value to their offering.

I'd put in a GDL-84 tomorrow if it was compatible with more than just Garmin's iPad app.

-Andrew

 

[Fearless Tower]

You know, the part about this Garmin unit that is really ****ing me off is that they are trying to be like Apple or Google and locking you into their eco-system. I really like the Garmin offering when it comes to avionics, but I am not happy with their iPad app. I like using ForeFlight. When Garmin is locking their in-dash hardware with their iPad app, that makes me want to run from it. A real turnoff. I know they're trying to push their app, but come on guys, this is ridiculous. On the other hand, ForeFlight is not innocent in this matter. They've partnered with Apperio and have locked that functionality into that family. The most promising was the Aspen Connected Panel... which ties everyone together. Once these companies realize that they cannot lock you into their entire family, and start embracing other products, they'll end up adding better value to their offering.

I'd put in a GDL-84 tomorrow if it was compatible with more than just Garmin's iPad app.

-Andrew

GARMIN is not unique in this aspect. Just about every avionics manufacturer has their gear set up to work that way. Once you instal a particular brand, be it Garmin, Avidyne, King, FF and Stratus....etc you are locked into their system.

 

[Stewartb]

I have Foreflight and Garmin Pilot and much prefer Pilot for in flight use. I like Foreflight's charts and documents but Garmin is working to add that function to Pilot. This stuff changes so fast I don't have time to worry about who's does what. They all do more than I need.

 

[dans2992]

Hot off today's email from Garmin. ADS-B in and out.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-...nt=&utm_campaign=November+Aviation+Newsletter

Looks good. Given that it receives on both 978 and 1090, why would Garmin not choose to broadcast on 1090 instead of 978? If they did, this unit would also work for Class A airspace.

Dan

 

[John Collins]

My point is with the waas capability of the transponder you would have a dedicated unit that is certified.

I would not dispute that. There is however a giant difference between a position source and a navigation system. A position source only provides the current location and relevant accuracy and integrity. It does not need a database, a route, a procedure, or an interface to display navigation information to a pilot. That is why TSO C145 describes the characteristics of a WAAS position sensor and TSO C146 adds the capabilities to provide a full navigation system.

 

[John Collins]

Looks good. Given that it receives on both 978 and 1090, why would Garmin not choose to broadcast on 1090 instead of 978? If they did, this unit would also work for Class A airspace.

Dan

A GDL84 is essentially a GDL88 with the built in position source option with an integrated FlightStream 110 or 210. It is upgradeable to add the other GDL88 interfaces. IOW it is a repackage of an existing product.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I like using ForeFlight. When Garmin is locking their in-dash hardware with their iPad app, that makes me want to run from it. A real turnoff. I know they're trying to push their app, but come on guys, this is ridiculous. On the other hand, ForeFlight is not innocent in this matter. They've partnered with Apperio and have locked that functionality into that family.

Note: ForeFlight has not "locked" anything.

Appareo has not published the API for the Stratus, but anyone who wants to can get a WiFi sniffer and listen in on the Stratus/ForeFlight to learn how to talk to the Stratus if they want. But, that was Appareo's decision, not ForeFlight's.

ForeFlight has not yet built in support for any other ADS-B/AHRS devices because it costs them R&D time and money to do so which they have chosen to spend focusing on new features rather than supporting the device du jour.

And yes, I've pestered both companies about this a lot. Moreso Appareo because I own one and wish it'd work with Xavion too. But, it is what it is for the moment.