AggieMike88
Touchdown! Greaser!
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
ForeFlight 10 announced
- Thread starter AggieMike88
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That video was already beaten up in another thread. 
NordicDave
En-Route
jimmyjack
Ejection Handle Pulled
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Nick
And I'll never get to use it because I refuse to upgrade to the latest iOS.
I recently *just* upgraded FF from 7.7.x to the latest 9.x and it's already slower to load and update routes, etc.
I won't bog my entire ipad down because they require IOS 10.
I recently *just* upgraded FF from 7.7.x to the latest 9.x and it's already slower to load and update routes, etc.
I won't bog my entire ipad down because they require IOS 10.
NordicDave
En-Route
People have little appreciation how vulnerable they are to security threats, and resolution to security breaches are the OS updates. Read Special Counsel Mueller's 37 page inditement of 17 Russians and see how pedestrian devices from regular people are used for bad as just ONE example.
I work here in Silicon Valley my whole career. The security breaches that happen and the ordinary people affected and unaware is very disturbing. The information is generally not released, as too not spook people into not maintaining confidence in the devices. (keep profits flowing)
For me, I download OS updates immediately and also buy a new iPad every 3 1/2 to 4 years for $300-400. Cost of the iPad per month is $8.50 ($400 / 48 months) for strong performance and security.
I work here in Silicon Valley my whole career. The security breaches that happen and the ordinary people affected and unaware is very disturbing. The information is generally not released, as too not spook people into not maintaining confidence in the devices. (keep profits flowing)
For me, I download OS updates immediately and also buy a new iPad every 3 1/2 to 4 years for $300-400. Cost of the iPad per month is $8.50 ($400 / 48 months) for strong performance and security.
CC268
Final Approach
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CC268
Yea I’ve never had a lot of issues with updating to the newest OS. My iPad mini 4 is always updated to the latest version of OS and ForeFlight and I really don’t have any issues.
baboss
Line Up and Wait
Here's the official dirt from FF on FF10:
https://foreflight.com/campaigns/10/?utm_source=social&utm_campaign=ForeFlight 10
I saw last night that the Stratux software release is out for the interface w/ FF10 for AHRS functionality. Looking forward to that!
https://foreflight.com/campaigns/10/?utm_source=social&utm_campaign=ForeFlight 10
I saw last night that the Stratux software release is out for the interface w/ FF10 for AHRS functionality. Looking forward to that!
denverpilot
Tied Down
I see nothing in that announcement that says it will run faster.
I remember when were all happy it got us away from paper charts on iPad 1.
Soon it’s going to need to be run on a supercomputer and we’ll need to provide the device cooling water to keep it from melting down.
I remember when were all happy it got us away from paper charts on iPad 1.
Soon it’s going to need to be run on a supercomputer and we’ll need to provide the device cooling water to keep it from melting down.
Interesting coincidence, but the only time I didn't update my iPad to the latest OS immediately in the 7 years I've used one was the one time there was a significant problem - the blocking of Bluetooth enabled external GPS. All other times, like you, latest OS with no problems.
AKiss20
Line Up and Wait
How many people complaining about slow performance are still using iPad 2s or 3s? That is 5-6 generations out of date. The A series chips saw massive gains in the early days, and are still improving significantly faster than x86-64 chips so that is basically the equivalent of running Windows 10 on a pentium 3 and being annoyed that photoshop is slow.
CC268
Final Approach
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CC268
Ohhh the humanniittyyy! What would we do without you old guys complaining about new tech!
Just kidding. EFBs are for inferior pilots. I only use paper charts and a slide rule.
gkainz
Final Approach
QFT!!!!!!
Brad Z
Final Approach
It used to be that ForeFlight didn't pre-announce releases until they were ready to go. It seems over the last few releases they've broken that rule; probably to show something interesting for SnF. It also seems they (and the other EFB developers as well) have slowed down on new feature releases. I suppose all of the low hanging fruit has been picked, but I miss the period between around 2012-2015 when new functionality was being rolled out every couple months. It was like Christmas every 8 weeks
I suspect their development focus is on corporate and the 121 business, where there's still growth. I have to imagine there's not a lot of GA market share left to compete over.
I suspect their development focus is on corporate and the 121 business, where there's still growth. I have to imagine there's not a lot of GA market share left to compete over.
Actually, it's the old guys who don't complain. We saw the same thing happening 20-30 years ago when computer speeds and software requirements were both increasing exponentially. Useful life of a desktop was two years, three on the outside, less if you were doing heavy graphics
I heard Bill Gates speak at one of the public forums Microsoft used to have for new product releases - it was for Office 95 or Office 97. He said (paraphrasing), "Our job as software developers is to make your new fast computers seem slow."
CC268
Final Approach
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CC268
I was just kiddinggg! I could never have the infinite wisdom that you old guys have
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
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The problem was that he hired overachievers...
I know.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I don't have a problem with security updates. What I DO have a problem is that you guys feel the need to "fix" things that aren't broken. I just learned how to use (insert platform/program here) and you have to "fix" it. STOP!!
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
They've been showing off the next release at the shows for several years. After all, nobody's going to come to your booth to look at what they already have.
It also seems they (and the other EFB developers as well) have slowed down on new feature releases. I suppose all of the low hanging fruit has been picked, but I miss the period between around 2012-2015 when new functionality was being rolled out every couple months. It was like Christmas every 8 weeks
They haven't slowed anything down, it's just a more mature product now than it was, so you pretty much have to read about each release to see what's in it because it's not as obvious as it was early on when things like rubber-banding your flight plan were revolutionary.
They do have to compete to keep that market share, though. Since they're on a subscription model, if they stood still and let Garmin catch up, their revenue would all be gone by next year.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Oh, get over it already Nate. It's technology. It's always been this way and it always will be.
I'm still running it on an iPad Mini 2 - Yeah, the 2013 model - and it works just fine. It's not super-snappy, nor do I expect it to be, but I don't really wait for it either. I expect to want something newer in the next couple of years, but seriously, it's five years old. It's due to be retired.
AKiss20
Line Up and Wait
Truth. I run Mac and Linux personally but figured this crowd would be more windows oriented
denverpilot
Tied Down
Haven’t “gotten over” bloatware since 1982, and don’t expect to start any time soon.
Call it 1983 since that was the first upgrade. Computers have wasted a lot of my time. But maintaining the always bigger, always never any faster, beasties, at doing the same actual jobs for decades, has paid well!
“You need an i7 to launch a word processor!” Talk about job security.
Hahaha. How did we ever create documents on Pentiums?! Someone was talking about Docker containers the other day and I joked, “So what you’re saying is you want to use something that triples our resource use for no gain, over spinning up an entire VM via automation? Sounds like Java all over again...”
Well at least we’re on AWS now so we can flip machine “sizes” to match the bloat, any time we want to pay for it.
I’m also on a Mini 2, don’t want to buy an Mini 4 and don’t want to buy all new mounting hardware for the supersized but otherwise not all that interesting Cook junk. LOL.
This biz is overdue for a real Android competitor to FF. C’mon Garmin. Not sayin’ anything bad about FF, just sayin’ they need some competition.
Budgeting for $100 a year amortized before it gets tossed in a landfill isn’t awful, it’s just annoying.
Can’t even write the thing off as an unreimbursed business expense in 2018. Ha. Sucks.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I see my industry has indoctrinated you well.
Excellent. (As I pet a Persian cat and laugh maniacally...)Probably think leasing hardware was as good an idea as leasing cars. LOL.
Wait. They sold us an immature product?!
Or as the phrase goes, “They’ll sell you a beta test version every week...”
I love this biz. Charging people subscription money for things that are never finished is the definition of awesome, in terms of revenue.
I chuckled when I saw they added weather to the plan view. That software company that got all crazed about their patents long ago, had that on their Windows tablet software (back when that was a thing) ALMOST twenty years ago now. Copying that one took FF a looooooooong time.
I turned in “Feedback” this week asking whether the destination airport disappearing from the flight plan when using a GTN’s new “Visual” approaches is a Garmin bug or a ForeFlight bug. Haven’t heard anything back yet.
Instantly removes the magenta and extended runway center lines and keeps the taxi diagram from appearing at landing.
If you use that “Visual” button on the GTN you don’t want to hit “accept flight plan” from the panel after that. Just leave ForeFlight in the last flight plan that had an airport at the end of it. “Visual” on the GTN will wipe it for some reason.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Haven’t “gotten over” bloatware since 1982, and don’t expect to start any time soon.
Well then, I suggest you go get an Apple ][ or IBM PC and put it in the plane, because apparently we shouldn't have been improving computing devices since then.
They're not "faster" because they do a helluva lot more. If we only made the hardware better and never the software... I mean, just think about how fast we could run Oregon Trail!
Garmin is probably the biggest competitor, but they're still behind because despite their much larger resources, they got a late entrance to the tablet EFB game because they tried to hard to convince everyone for a couple of years after the iPad came out that we needed to buy their expensive, single-purpose, non-touchscreen hardware that still lacked most of the features of the tablet EFBs. So, they're still trying to catch up.
Wait. They sold us an immature product?!
Or as the phrase goes, “They’ll sell you a beta test version every week...”
No, but you don't build a successful software business by not selling your product until you get to version 10.0. Everything has a 1.0 at some point, and ForeFlight 1.0 was leaps and bounds ahead of what we had before that. Remember paper charts? Remember e-ink devices too small to show an approach plate and too slow to pan to the parts you needed to see? Remember palm pilot flight planning software? None of it was even remotely close to the capability of the first version of ForeFlight.
But, once you build something like that first version, all of a sudden you realize there are lots more possibilities, and the features come streaming in, and they're very noticeable each time.
And then you have a mature product, and people complain that you're "only evolutionary, not revolutionary" when you come out with the next version.
I believe that's a Garmin bug. I've seen it too. The visual approaches are a bit of a kluge, if you ask me, but kinda fun to let the autopilot fly 'til damnneartouchdown.
denverpilot
Tied Down
... we shouldn't have been improving computing devices since then.
They're not "faster" because they do a helluva lot more.
LOL. I see you’ve been well indoctrinated too.
The vast vast majority of business use of computers is data entry, spreadsheets, word processing and email. Add in “looking crap up on the Internet” in the 90s and you have the five things people really do with business computers.
Obviously not developers and SysAdmins.
Most of what people actually need to do could still be done on a Wyse 60. Minus fancy fonts and ten page long Outlook signature blocks with company logos in them and their official company headshot attached. LOL.
Thanks for the confirmation the Visual approach makes all this “modern computing” lose its **** over what airport we’re landing at, though. LOL.
Sending whole flight plans instead of intelligent changes exactly as entered is the kludge by the way, if we’re being picky here. But I still love it.
And no, I don’t see any other way for two companies to interact on that API that either of their developer teams would EVER get right if the thing actually sent only changes. While flight plans at a time is the only way modern programmers would have a chance in hell in making that work properly with the short release cycles of the modern world.
Squirrelfury
Pre-Flight
It's neither. Anytime you activate any approach on a GTN system with v6.4.1 software, the destination airport is replaced in the flight plan by (only) the approach waypoints. That's how it's designed. If you download that new plan to the iPad, then the destination airport vanishes there as well.
I think that almost exactly half of the GTN customer base loves that functionality, while the other half hates it. Garmin can't win.
denverpilot
Tied Down
That’d be fine with an approach with waypoints. The Visuals don’t have any. It’s the equivalent of saying “erase flight plan” on the iPad.
Seems like it breaks multiple safety features but mainly the automatic Taxi diagram removing the destination airport but I see what you’re saying. The one time I’d really like the taxi diagram to be up automatically would be in low visibility.
Squirrelfury
Pre-Flight
I don't like it either. I'm in that half of Garmin's customers who prefer the "non-FMS" implementation, where the approach gets loaded in front of the destination airport. My main complaint with the current method is that it invalidates the smart frequency look-up feature of the GTN radios. After loading an approach, you can no longer voice-command the GTN to "tune destination tower", "tune destination ground", etc.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Hmmm interesting point. We don’t have the Garmin audio panel but I do like the printed confirmation under the frequencies that you’re on the correct one for the airport.
Sounds like Garmin needs another logic tree there and a setting for it down in the settings.
Nope, the 121 & corporate market is pretty much locked up by Jeppesen.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Most of the fractional jet videos on YT, the crews are all using ForeFlight. Jepp better learn how to write software or all they’ll have left is the international customer base.
All the airlines that use them, most of the pilots still love the charts themselves but want to throw the iPad hard at something when dealing with JeppView or the dumber versions they spin for 121 operators.
They’ve got serious problems looming.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well then, I suggest you go get an Apple ][ or IBM PC and put it in the plane, because apparently we shouldn't have been improving computing devices since then.
They're not "faster" because they do a helluva lot more. If we only made the hardware better and never the software... I mean, just think about how fast we could run Oregon Trail!
Garmin is probably the biggest competitor, but they're still behind because despite their much larger resources, they got a late entrance to the tablet EFB game because they tried to hard to convince everyone for a couple of years after the iPad came out that we needed to buy their expensive, single-purpose, non-touchscreen hardware that still lacked most of the features of the tablet EFBs. So, they're still trying to catch up.
No, but you don't build a successful software business by not selling your product until you get to version 10.0. Everything has a 1.0 at some point, and ForeFlight 1.0 was leaps and bounds ahead of what we had before that. Remember paper charts? Remember e-ink devices too small to show an approach plate and too slow to pan to the parts you needed to see? Remember palm pilot flight planning software? None of it was even remotely close to the capability of the first version of ForeFlight.
But, once you build something like that first version, all of a sudden you realize there are lots more possibilities, and the features come streaming in, and they're very noticeable each time.
And then you have a mature product, and people complain that you're "only evolutionary, not revolutionary" when you come out with the next version.
I believe that's a Garmin bug. I've seen it too. The visual approaches are a bit of a kluge, if you ask me, but kinda fun to let the autopilot fly 'til damnneartouchdown.
Garmin’s new plan is to sell as many transponders as they can and then raise the license fee to FF users.
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3G
Didn’t Jepp and FF partner last year? Seems like that’s the way to go for Jepp. Let s/w people do what they do best and feed it w/Jepp info.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
LOL. I see you’ve been well indoctrinated too.
The vast vast majority of business use of computers is data entry, spreadsheets, word processing and email. Add in “looking crap up on the Internet” in the 90s and you have the five things people really do with business computers.
OK, let's see you go back to an Apple ][ and do everything you need to do today in business.
Guarantee you'll be laughed out of the room when you come in with your documents printed on a 72 DPI ImageWriter.
denverpilot
Tied Down
OK, let's see you go back to an Apple ][ and do everything you need to do today in business.
Guarantee you'll be laughed out of the room when you come in with your documents printed on a 72 DPI ImageWriter.
Who prints documents anymore? And no. Apple didn’t work for business back then.
Cook is trying his best to make them unusable in an audited network business environment again, too.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I REALLY wish Foreflight would move away from iPads.
Bulldog573
Pre-takeoff checklist
One of the things I like about @denverpilot is that he’s a techie with a soul and a sense of humor
I’ve been in the business many years, gone from tech to exec, and I can tell you that’s a rare combination of qualities.Wherever we’ve deployed an iPad as an “enterprise need” for a business exec, we’ve taken it back within a few months at most. It does just enough to meet the needs of an individual and lacks just enough functionality to not meet the needs of a business person. They get frustrated, so we re-purpose the device to some niche use or application.
That said, I love my iPads, have since Gen 1, and they have their place in my life. My Surface Pro takes care of the biz, but it’s the iPad that goes with me from the couch to the cockpit.
Rcmutz
Cleared for Takeoff
Agree. I upgraded to an IPAD 4 after an IPAD 2. What a world of difference.