For those that think an Airline Passenger bill of rights is a good thing:

Greg Bockelman said:
This pretty much sums it up.
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I don't think it sums it up. With all due respect .. I see nothing but
contempt for the traveling public by the airlines. We're just cargo back
there. Shut up and do like we're told.

I just can't under ANY circumstances justify people being trapped in
a plance for 10 hrs with no food, water, toilets. We treat animals
better than that.

The traveling public trusts their well being to the airlines when they
get on a plane and that trust was violated. I think some kind of
law establishing passenger rights is long over do.

RT
 
I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but there was a letter to the editor in a paper I read over the last couple of days. Essentially the writer was complaining that passengers have become like "sheep" and have learned to cow to authority. He thought we needed some real Patriots... suggesting that a riot on those planes sitting on the tarmac would have been much better than what happened.
 
Henning said:
No real dog in this hunt, but the link is, Airline p***es off customer, customer voices, TSA gets called, customer is now under arrest. Customer who steps off plane at gate while on an interminable push back hold, goes directly to jail.... Stuff like that directly links TSA to airlines in the mind of the consumer.
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This goes to my "stupid customer" rant. I'm just a stupid passenger. If I got through a nightmare at the airport, whether it's from TSA, the local cops, or the airline, I ain't flying again.

Eventually, passengers with any self-esteem and a brain cell stay away. The TSA gets less work but they still go to congress for more funding. The airlines gets less passengers so they go to congress for subsidies and laws to make flying the nightmare mandatory.
 
wsuffa said:
I'm trying to remember where I saw it, but there was a letter to the editor in a paper I read over the last couple of days. Essentially the writer was complaining that passengers have become like "sheep" and have learned to cow to authority. He thought we needed some real Patriots... suggesting that a riot on those planes sitting on the tarmac would have been much better than what happened.
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The "riot" belongs outside the aircraft; the cockpit and cabin crew have no authority to fix things up; they are just fellow victims. Would you want to be wearing their shoes?
 
SCCutler said:
The "riot" belongs outside the aircraft; the cockpit and cabin crew have no authority to fix things up; they are just fellow victims. Would you want to be wearing their shoes?
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Trust me, I believe in dealing with things in other ways than a riot. One can make a point (or conduct civil disobedience) without damaging property or harming others.

If I can find the letter (or a link thereto), I'll post it. I just don't remember if it was the WSJ, the San Antonio paper, the NYT or somewhere else.
 
SCCutler said:
The "riot" belongs outside the aircraft; the cockpit and cabin crew have no authority to fix things up; they are just fellow victims. Would you want to be wearing their shoes?
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Sorry, I don't buy that the cockpit crew have no authority and are just victims too. The PIC of the plane has the right to declare an emergancy and do anything he sees fit that is in the best intrest of his passengers. After 10 hrs with no food, no water, overflowing bathrooms; the PIC should have declared an emergancy, taxied near to a terminal door, and blown the slides or in the houstan case used the back stairs that they were walking the dogs out of.
 
Missa said:
Sorry, I don't buy that the cockpit crew have no authority and are just victims too. The PIC of the plane has the right to declare an emergancy and do anything he sees fit that is in the best intrest of his passengers. After 10 hrs with no food, no water, overflowing bathrooms; the PIC should have declared an emergancy, taxied near to a terminal door, and blown the slides or in the houstan case used the back stairs that they were walking the dogs out of.
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That would be a really great way to go from flying the heavy iron back to the local flight school's 172.
 
jesse said:
That would be a really great way to go from flying the heavy iron back to the local flight school's 172.
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I didn't say they would necessarly keep their jobs, but they are also not powerless victims as Spike describes. I also don't want a pilot who dosen't have the fortitued to do what's right, in the face of loosing his job, flying a plane I'm a passenger in.

Missa
 
Missa said:
I didn't say they would necessarly keep their jobs, but they are also not powerless victims as Spike describes. I also don't want a pilot who dosen't have the fortitued to do what's right, in the face of loosing his job, flying a plane I'm a passenger in.

Missa
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The thing that bothers me is the notion that everyone -- including the pilots -- was powerless. I just don't buy it. I mean their attitude really seems to have been, "Yeah, you've been stuck on the tarmac for 6 hours now. Oh effing well, can't do anything, sorry 'bout it. Guess you'll just have to deal." The pilots, the ops people, management, executives, everybody is to blame. It seems they were all asleep at the switch, and from the tone of the original memo posted in this thread, it would appear their attitude is now, "Well, you don't get it, we do, so too bad, shut up, and keep writing us checks." Ain't gonna fly. So to speak.
 
Missa said:
I didn't say they would necessarly keep their jobs, but they are also not powerless victims as Spike describes. I also don't want a pilot who dosen't have the fortitued to do what's right, in the face of loosing his job, flying a plane I'm a passenger in.

Missa
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If I was on an airplane with an airline pilot. This airline pilot has busted his ass to get where he is at. If he loses his job he will go from a decent life to dead broke eating ramen living in some crappy apartment with flight school wage.

I would NOT want him nor would I ever ask him to do something that would put his career at risk UNLESS I was going to get killed. Yeah if I was stuck on a plane for 8 hours that would suck. I'd be ****ed. But I wouldn't ask a man to give up his life over it.
 
jesse said:
If I was on an airplane with an airline pilot. This airline pilot has busted his ass to get where he is at. If he loses his job he will go from a decent life to dead broke eating ramen living in some crappy apartment with flight school wage.

I would NOT want him nor would I ever ask him to do something that would put his career at risk UNLESS I was going to get killed. Yeah if I was stuck on a plane for 8 hours that would suck. I'd be ****ed. But I wouldn't ask a man to give up his life over it.
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Would you hold it or go in a overflowing cesspool that could have all sorts of nasty bacteria that you could contract & die because of it. How long have you gone without water??? It doesn't take long for me to develop a headace on it's way to migrane in a lot less time then 8 hours. A friends mom spent a night in the hospital because of dehydration on a flight from Isreal to NY because of the new liquid rules. + People with poor circulation in those seats, you are just asking for a blood clot that could lead to a stroke. If I wasn't planing on being on a plane for 8 hrs and we had no water left. It's most certianly an emergancy that the pilot should declare.

Missa
 
Missa said:
I didn't say they would necessarly keep their jobs, but they are also not powerless victims as Spike describes. I also don't want a pilot who dosen't have the fortitued to do what's right, in the face of loosing his job, flying a plane I'm a passenger in.

Missa
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Quite frankly, I have no idea how far the discretion of the cockpit crew goes here; is the circumstance one which constitutes and "emergency" within that word's meaning for FAR purposes? I kinda doubt it and, if I am right, the flight crew is more under the thumb of company policy than flight safety here.

But my ignorance on this subject is vast, and I'd like to hear from an active 121 pilot on this...

...anyone... anyone....

...Bueller?

It may be a "third-rail" for an active 121 pilot to comment on a public forum here, dunno.
 
SCCutler said:
Quite frankly, I have no idea how far the discretion of the cockpit crew goes here; is the circumstance one which constitutes and "emergency" within that word's meaning for FAR purposes? I kinda doubt it and, if I am right, the flight crew is more under the thumb of company policy than flight safety here.

But my ignorance on this subject is vast, and I'd like to hear from an active 121 pilot on this...

...anyone... anyone....

...Bueller?

It may be a "third-rail" for an active 121 pilot to comment on a public forum here, dunno.
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If I can be procuceted due to failing to follow flight crew instructions per the FARs when the aircraft is sitting on the ground for 8 hours, then other parts of the FARs like the ability of the PIC to declare an emergancey should also be valid.

Missa
 
Missa said:
If I can be procuceted due to failing to follow flight crew instructions per the FARs when the aircraft is sitting on the ground for 8 hours, then other parts of the FARs like the ability of the PIC to declare an emergancey should also be valid.

Missa
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What you say makes sense; I still don't know if it is the law, though. As we all know, the law and common sense often reside in entirely different places. :D
 
jesse said:
That would be a really great way to go from flying the heavy iron back to the local flight school's 172.
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Yep, but that's part of the duty you signed for. No one said it was easy.
 
jesse said:
If I was on an airplane with an airline pilot. This airline pilot has busted his ass to get where he is at. If he loses his job he will go from a decent life to dead broke eating ramen living in some crappy apartment with flight school wage.

I would NOT want him nor would I ever ask him to do something that would put his career at risk UNLESS I was going to get killed. Yeah if I was stuck on a plane for 8 hours that would suck. I'd be ****ed. But I wouldn't ask a man to give up his life over it.
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Sorry, I damn well expect it of him. I've gone up against company management on more than one occassion as a captain over issues that affected my passengers and crew. It's part of the job. If you ain't got the balls, you don't deserve the job. I'd doubt that he would lose his job anyway, not once the media got the story, and they would....
 
Henning said:
Sorry, I damn well expect it of him. I've gone up against company management on more than one occassion as a captain over issues that affected my passengers and crew. It's part of the job. If you ain't got the balls, you don't deserve the job. I'd doubt that he would lose his job anyway, not once the media got the story, and they would....
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Sometimes that's not an option for everyone. It's the right thing to do. But there are times where you are just not going to beat the man. The man is just going to beat you. Sometimes you might still make a stand up knowing this will be the end result. I've done it before.

But I'm also in a lot different position that other people. I can find a new job in short order. I have no debt and I have no one that I need to support currently.

Things change when you have a house that must be paid for, kids that need to eat, etc. When you get in this situation you have to ask yourself do you want to do whats right for other people or do whats right for your family.

It sucks to put yourself in this situation. I hope I never do. You don't seem to be the kind of guy that ever has Henning but the sad thing is the majority of the people are in this position.
 
Jesse, not intending to impugn pilots - but for some (at least the ones I knew), if they lost their job and were unable to find another airline job - they could go work for an insurance company and double their money. Likely without an insurance background, either. Or a job in [fill in the blanks industry].
 
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woodstock said:
Jesse, meaning no impunity to pilots - but for some (at least the ones I knew), if they lost their job and were unable to find another airline job - they could go work for an insurance company and double their money. Likely without an insurance background, either. Or a job in [fill in the blanks industry].
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Ya' know, Beth, given the current state of the industry, I don't see any rational economic reason that a smart individual would aspire to be an airline pilot today. Before the 121 guys here get on my case, please note that I'm talking about starting out in today's environment and solely on the economics. There are a lot of other very good reasons that someone would want to take the job.
 
jesse said:
Sometimes that's not an option for everyone. It's the right thing to do. But there are times where you are just not going to beat the man. The man is just going to beat you. Sometimes you might still make a stand up knowing this will be the end result. I've done it before.

But I'm also in a lot different position that other people. I can find a new job in short order. I have no debt and I have no one that I need to support currently.

Things change when you have a house that must be paid for, kids that need to eat, etc. When you get in this situation you have to ask yourself do you want to do whats right for other people or do whats right for your family.

It sucks to put yourself in this situation. I hope I never do. You don't seem to be the kind of guy that ever has Henning but the sad thing is the majority of the people are in this position.
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One thing I found in the course of life is that if you do the right thing, life takes care of you. It's when you fail to act as your conscience dictates that the problems start.
 
wsuffa said:
Ya' know, Beth, given the current state of the industry, I don't see any rational economic reason that a smart individual would aspire to be an airline pilot today. Before the 121 guys here get on my case, please note that I'm talking about starting out in today's environment and solely on the economics. There are a lot of other very good reasons that someone would want to take the job.
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Yeah. If nothing else you can accumulate flight hours and eventually get a job as a CFI to primary students at a small local FBO. :rolleyes:
 
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