For owners/partners

[Bill]

In my further waffling about becoming an aircraft owner, I want to see if someone of our means can own, so I'm putting a poll out for household income. Anon, of course. For those that are retired and own, if you would, just put in how much you draw down against investments yearly.

Thanks!

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Sorry, Bill, that's a little personal, even if anon...

I suspect you'd be better served by doing a financial analysis of your own resources, setting a budget based on that, and then figure out what you can buy or put into a partnership.

 

[ScottM]

One of the first things I did was to look at how much I was spending renting. If I could afford to rent that much a year that would be my baseline about my outlays each year for an owned aircraft. What I found was that it was only a few thousand different (more) to on. I was able to find that in the budget with a sligh reprioritization.

 

[mattaxelrod]

There was a thread just like this on the Red Board.

 

[Bill]

Sorry, Bill, that's a little personal, even if anon...

I know it is, and some parts of me feel bad for asking, but other parts are curious about if this is really dooable.

When one goes about buying homes, there are lots of rules of thumb concerning what you should buy vs. assets and income, and I'm trying to put this endevour into some kind of box like that...

 

[Bill]

There was a thread just like this on the Red Board.

Sorry, the only thing I check once in a while on the red board is Hops and $100 Hamburgers just to see if there is an interesting flyin coming up...

Otherwise, I leave it be...

 

[tonycondon]

well im a broke college kid/CFI/aircraft owner. Course i dont have to overhaul engines or buy gas either

 

[ScottM]

or buy gas either

Not directly but you are paying for someone's gas each time you fly.

BTW what do tows cost?

 

[jesse]

I think income is a poor base for determining if aircraft ownership is right for you.

I know people that make significantly more then I do each year, but they also have a lot of crap to pay for..Houses, Boats, Cars, Debt..and quite frankly are broke.

I know people that make a bit less then me and could probably spend more money on aviation due to having less bills.

 

[tonycondon]

scott,
tows in my club cost 1 dollar for every hundred feet up you go. typically i go to 2000 feet, so 20 bucks. then depending on how good I am and the conditions i can stay up anywhere from 15 minutes to 5 or 6 hours. obviously i can get my hourly cost pretty darn low if i can work some good thermals. even taking sled rides, up and down is about the same as renting power, except i can fly my plane whenever/wherever i want

 

[gismo]

well im a broke college kid/CFI/aircraft owner. Course i dont have to overhaul engines or buy gas either

No kiddin. And what's the typical annual inspection cost for a simple glider? Insurance? I assume you have a trailer so there's probably no tiedown fee either. On the other side of the ledger I guess you'd have to include the cost of any annual trailer plates.

 

[tonycondon]

right i think my trailer registration is 30/year! yes have an enclosed trailer, but it needs sealed up, so im splitting a garage bay hangar with my instructor for 15/month. million dollar liability insurance ran me a whopping 186/year. condition inspection is basically 2-3 hours of labor for my A&P, i think he charges 50/hr. Theres basically nothing to break so rarely have to replace anything. the only moving parts are the wheel and the flight control systems.

other related costs
150 or so to put a trailer hitch on my car
50 for a new variometer
100 for a used handheld radio
need to get a good 12 volt gell cell battery to run the varios and radio
probably around 75 for miscellaneous hardware and random stuff to get the glider to the airport and ready to fly.

just like any other plane, this thing is going to nickel and dime me to death....

 

[gismo]

Bill, I don't think you'll find a formula that works based on gross income. I'd start with disposable income (gross - taxes - debt retirement(vehicles/house/etc) - food - insurance - auto fuel&maint - misc expenses (tuition, union dues, retirement funding, etc). That figure is likely to be rather different for people with the same gross income. Then you have to make a personal decision as to how much of your disposable you are willing to commit to flying. If you are already agonizing over what you are spending now that amount would probably make a good limit. For me a back of the envelope calculation says about 25% of my disposable income goes for aviation and that's not counting the cost of any loans (which I don't have) for the planes.

 

[gismo]

right i think my trailer registration is 30/year! yes have an enclosed trailer, but it needs sealed up, so im splitting a garage bay hangar with my instructor for 15/month. million dollar liability insurance ran me a whopping 186/year. condition inspection is basically 2-3 hours of labor for my A&P, i think he charges 50/hr. Theres basically nothing to break so rarely have to replace anything. the only moving parts are the wheel and the flight control systems.

So your annualized fixed costs amount to something like $500. That a pretty inexpensive aviation habit, something one might almost be able to afford on CFI pay.

just like any other plane, this thing is going to nickel and dime me to death....

Yeah, but in your case it really is nickels and dimes (and not a whole lot of them).

 

[tonycondon]

true lance, but to paraphrase baxter, flying takes all of the money youve got. if i wouldve had more to spend, i wouldve bought something with a little higher L/D, maybe flaps even, or retractable landing gear! then i would have to get an engine and it would be all downhill from there

 

[alaskaflyer]

Agree, its about disposable income. I don't make much compared to many aircraft owners (though probably more than some here so excuse me for saying that) but I am in a place in my life where I don't have many bills. Or didn't until I bought the plane!

 

[ScottM]

scott,
tows in my club cost 1 dollar for every hundred feet up you go. typically i go to 2000 feet, so 20 bucks. then depending on how good I am and the conditions i can stay up anywhere from 15 minutes to 5 or 6 hours. obviously i can get my hourly cost pretty darn low if i can work some good thermals. even taking sled rides, up and down is about the same as renting power, except i can fly my plane whenever/wherever i want

That is really cheap!! and a cool solution to make flying fit with your budget

 

[AdamZ]

Bill I understand the basis for your poll but income has to be weighed by expenses. Mortgage, College Tuition, medical expenses, Weddings to pay for, school loans etc.

 

[GaryO]

Agree, its about disposable income. I don't make much compared to many aircraft owners (though probably more than some here so excuse me for saying that) but I am in a place in my life where I don't have many bills. Or didn't until I bought the plane!

I agree. We spent most of our lives saving to put the kids through college and then paying to put them through college. One year after the last one graduated I bought my first aircraft.

So far, aircraft ownership is far less expensive than raising kids.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I know it is, and some parts of me feel bad for asking, but other parts are curious about if this is really dooable.

When one goes about buying homes, there are lots of rules of thumb concerning what you should buy vs. assets and income, and I'm trying to put this endevour into some kind of box like that...

The problem, Bill, is that the survey is comparing apples to oranges. Let's take somebody at 100K. Can they afford a new Piper Malibu? No. Can they afford an old 152? Probably. Can they afford a 4 way partnership in a 172? Likely. In a SR-22? Maybe, maybe not.

So just knowing that an owner makes X dollars doesn't tell you anything very useful unless you know WHAT he owns. And that still doesn't tell you everything... you don't know what else they spend money on.

I'd really recommend that you figure out what you can afford to spend a year to pay for your flying habit, then figure out what you can get for that amount of money, both in sole ownership and in a partnership.

BTW, I like partnerships (assuming you can find good partners). I know other pilots who wouldn't touch one. YMMV. One of the real bennies is that you may be able to get into multiple partnerships and thus have a bigger choice of what to fly. I started out with sole ownership of the PA28, but brought in two partners last December. We have a 5 way partnership in the R22, and a 4 way in the R44 we are getting in August. I could afford the PA28 by myself, but didn't fly it enough. Maybe I could afford my own R22, though that would be a stretch. I definitely could neither afford nor justify the R44 by myself. So this way I get to fly 3 different aircraft and be able to afford it...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

The problem, Bill, is that the survey is comparing apples to oranges. Let's take somebody at 100K. Can they afford a new Piper Malibu? No. Can they afford an old 152? Probably. Can they afford a 4 way partnership in a 172? Likely. In a SR-22? Maybe, maybe not.

Oh no Bob! Did you have to be so blunt!!! Ya mean I can't afford my planes .

You could have at least put it more tactfully. Uhhh right through the heart!

Dave

 

[midlifeflyer]

One of the first things I did was to look at how much I was spending renting.

That's exactly what I did. I looked at what I was spending renting and what I was likely to spend owing (in my case, a share). I compared the two and found a target number of hours where the difference was either inconsequential or worth the advantages of flying a clean, well-maintained airplane that I got to know well and was less likely to be trashed and taken offline for unanticipated maintenance just when I wanted to fly it.

I'm only in my first year, but I seem to be hitting my target and it's been well worth it.

 

[Shipoke]

Bill i voted,and if you call me i'll gladly tell you what i did to own.
Dave Gaiski 717-554-8247 this is my cell number

 

[Dean]

Bill,
I work for the state and my salary is public record, so I don't have a problem with telling you. I'm in the 50K-100K bracket, and on the lower end of that. Like someone else said, if you can rent, you can own. It is just adjusting your life style to accomadate the airplane payment and upkeep. I sold off a few other toys, (ie, motorcycle, ATV, Camper, first born, just kidding on that one) But it can be done, if you want it bad enough, you just have to buy what you can afford.
We also live a modest life style, the wifes car is 8 years old and our house payment is less than $375.00 a month.

 

[SCCutler]

Bill i voted,and if you call me i'll gladly tell you what i did to own.
Dave Gaiski 717-554-8247 this is my cell number

And Dave's bird's a nice one.

 

[ScottM]

Bill,
I sold off a few other toys, (ie, motorcycle, ATV, Camper, first born, just kidding on that one)

?? You kept the motorcycle??

 

[Anthony]

That's exactly what I did. I looked at what I was spending renting and what I was likely to spend owing (in my case, a share). I compared the two and found a target number of hours where the difference was either inconsequential or worth the advantages of flying a clean, well-maintained airplane that I got to know well and was less likely to be trashed and taken offline for unanticipated maintenance just when I wanted to fly it.

I'm only in my first year, but I seem to be hitting my target and it's been well worth it.

I think the flying club/partnership route is a great way to go if you can find a good one. I couldn't, so I ended up buying my own. I might consider a partnership in a higher performance/newer airplane if I could find the right partners.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Oh no Bob! Did you have to be so blunt!!! Ya mean I can't afford my planes .

You could have at least put it more tactfully. Uhhh right through the heart!

Dave

Not to worry, Dave, only you know that for sure

I was just trying to say that I thought he was looking at the problem bass ackwards

 

[Bill]

Not to worry, Dave, only you know that for sure

I was just trying to say that I thought he was looking at the problem bass ackwards

Part of this is data for spousal perusal. "See, Honey, families just like us own airplanes and live to tell about it..."

In another year, I know we can do it with no undue pain, but my wife is FRUGAL raised to a power.

 

[DeeG]

We are far from wealthy, yet we own two planes. Yes, OWN. No payments, no loan, no lienholder. Same with the house, and all our vehicles/motorcycles. Pete's attitude is, if he can't pay cash for it, he can't afford it. That means I have to wait to buy stuff instead of just putting it on a credit card.....

 

[JRitt]

We are far from wealthy, yet we own two planes. Yes, OWN. No payments, no loan, no lienholder. Same with the house, and all our vehicles/motorcycles. Pete's attitude is, if he can't pay cash for it, he can't afford it. That means I have to wait to buy stuff instead of just putting it on a credit card.....

Ditto except the house. 4 more years till payoff. I saved a lot by buying my plane and using it to get my private in and hiring an independent instructor (he made more also)

 

[jdwatson]

Part of this is data for spousal perusal. "See, Honey, families just like us own airplanes and live to tell about it..."

In another year, I know we can do it with no undue pain, but my wife is FRUGAL raised to a power.

It's gotta be a wife club or something. Ever since mine found out about engine overhauls being $25K she's not interested in owning. It's an uphill challenge, but I'm not one to give up.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Hmmm...wife? Airplane? Wife? Airplane? ? ...?



Well you can see which way I went

 

[Dean]

?? You kept the motorcycle??

Sold it, The only toy I have now is the 172.

 

[wbarnhill]

Hmmm...wife? Airplane? Wife? Airplane? ? ...?



Well you can see which way I went

I'd say good choice, but that'd put my life at risk.

Though that does bring up a good question...

 

[alaskaflyer]

I'd say good choice,

Cheaper.

 

[silver-eagle]

I'm not sure what someone makes annually matters as to whether you can afford a plane (or anything else). Careful management of resources, deciding what your priorities are, and executing a plan to get there are more important. If you want something enough, you'll find a way. I've watched people work multiple jobs, bag lunch, instant coffee, live low rent to finance their dream house.
After being a homeowner for several years, a mortgage over 8.5%, then current interest around 6%, I used the accumulated equity to buy the plane. My monthy payments went down as a result (although I added 10 years to paying it off). The plane was owned outright. I could now afford to fly, eat, and sleep in comfort.

 

[Bill]

It's gotta be a wife club or something. Ever since mine found out about engine overhauls being $25K she's not interested in owning.

*snork*

Yep, but hey, the hardwood goes in the kitchen this week, after all new cabinets, corian tops, appliances, that after a new dining room, after a new living room, after...after....after.....

"But honey, not only does it make the house nicer to live in, but it improves our property values, too"

I know it does, but sheesh, you can't fly a counter top

 

[Bill]

After being a homeowner for several years, a mortgage over 8.5%, then current interest around 6%, I used the accumulated equity to buy the plane.

I could do that, but after being laid off two years ago, I have a different mindset. The house gets paid off, and I won't use that equity to buy a plane. Should the world turn upside down, I still want my family to have a roof over their heads. Hard to live in an airplane.

 

[Anthony]

Hard to live in an airplane.

Its easier to live in an airplane than fly a house.