Follow up from "lost on flight planning" thread

[hyphen81]

Hey guys...I posted last week about struggling with flight planning, got some really good advice, and met with my instructor to plan a short XC.

things didn't go quite like I had hoped. We met and his first question was, "well, what have you got?" I had told him I wanted to meet and plan something together and then go fly it, but apparently it didn't register, so he was surprised to plan something together. Anyway, we "planned" a quick XC. The first leg we tracked a Radial to a VOR and the next leg we tracked a radial from a VOR, then the last leg he said we'd just try to find our way home. He seemed very seat-of-your pants in his flight planning. We basically just used the winds aloft at 3,000 feet even though our altitude would be 2,000. That seemed ok, and we used 10GPH and 115 TAS for the calculations but never cracked a POH.

I'm interested to know if this type of "seat-of-your-pants" planning will suffice with a DPE? My guess is probably not

This is where things got interesting for me. Maybe others will say this is no big deal, but I'd like to preface this by saying the last time I flew was 7/11, and I've never flown in anything more than high overcast conditions. arguably this was good experience for me, although I'm not feeling that way right now.

As we were taxiing out to the runway, we hear a SIGMET advisory for our airport. Things are still VFR so we go ahead and take off.

I'm really rusty and immediately start making mistakes, and my CFI is immediately frustrated and is all but yelling at me to keep right rudder in (I know this, but again, I'm rusty.). We fly out a few miles from the airport and we fly through a rain cloud, it was bumpy and I couldn't see anything, but we came out the other side, no biggie. At this point I'm a bit stressed from being rusty, getting fussed at, and then doing a horrible job managing all the various tasks and trying to look for check points.

We reach the second leg and make our turn, I manage to pick up the radial and am able to stay on it for the most part. I then see te airport before my CFI which he was apparently pleased with. I do a horrible landing and get yelled at again and we take off to head home.

Ahead of us is a lot of thunderstorms, a ton of lightning, both cloud to ground and cloud to cloud, and so we're flying just to one side of the storm where there's a relatively clear spot and hoping we can turn back after we pass the storm and find a clear spot back to the airport. Talking to ATC they are all but outright questioning our decision to continue to the airport, but my CFI says we're coming in. At this point I'm not sure if this is normal or if I should be questioning putting my life in this CFI's hands, but I'm there regardless. I still don't know if this is a normal thing or if my CFI shouldn't have had us go up after hearing the SIGMET. Either way though, given my rustiness, I don't feel like it was a good day to experience new scary things.

Anyway, we find a clearing to the airport and head in, they turned the ILS lights on for us, which was helpful. I did another horrible landing (at this point I was so frazzled that I don't know if I could have possibly done a good landing even if I hadn't been rusty) with 3 or 4 bounces, which I got yelled at for again...taxi'd back as the rain started pouring down and the ramp guys picked us up from the hangar and took us back to the FBO. One of the ramp guys asked me what it's like to fly with my CFI kind of insinuating that the general opinion is my CFI is crazy, which didn't make me feel great either. After getting a couple of jokes about my "multiple landings" from the ramp guys, I headed home wondering if I have what it takes to do this...

I'm not giving up, and I already scheduled another dual XC flight for next Saturday, but I'm definitely feeling pretty low about my flight training right about now.

I attached a pic I took from the ramp looking towards the runway shortly after landing...

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[warthog1984]

Anyway, we "planned" a quick XC. The first leg we tracked a Radial to a VOR and the next leg we tracked a radial from a VOR, then the last leg he said we'd just try to find our way home. He seemed very seat-of-your pants in his flight planning. We basically just used the winds aloft at 3,000 feet even though our altitude would be 2,000. That seemed ok, and we used 10GPH and 115 TAS for the calculations but never cracked a POH.

I'm interested to know if this type of "seat-of-your-pants" planning will suffice with a DPE? My guess is probably not

It depends. The CFI probably knows the area, so he may have been throwing you in the deep end WRT pilotage. It's a valid teaching method; stressful, but valid.

Winds aloft- winds aloft never match the forecast, and at 2000 MSL/1200 AGL are highly variable anyway. Nothing to worry about here; other than the relatively low altitude.

Fuel planning- the DPE will want to see a log filled out with precise calculations so they know you can utilize the POH as needed. However, using a conservative rule of thumb (such as 10-12GPH/115KTAS for the 172S), will demonstrate that you understand your airplane's practical limits.

BTW- Those numbers are ones the aviation community has arrived at through experience, since it is almost impossible to get certain types to vary too much from those figures regardless of pilot attention or aircraft condition.

We fly out a few miles from the airport and we fly through a rain cloud, it was bumpy and I couldn't see anything, but we came out the other side, no biggie.

Where you on an IFR clearance? If yes, than it is "no biggie". Otherwise, it's an FAR and common sense violation.

Ahead of us is a lot of thunderstorms, a ton of lightning, both cloud to ground and cloud to cloud, and so we're flying just to one side of the storm where there's a relatively clear spot and hoping we can turn back after we pass the storm and find a clear spot back to the airport. Talking to ATC they are all but outright questioning our decision to continue to the airport,,,

Anyway, we find a clearing to the airport and head in, they turned the ILS lights on for us, which was helpful.

. There is no reason for a primary student to be flying a lightplane next to a T-storm. Especially after a cloud bust.

Find a new CFI.

 

[OkieAviator]

Find a new CFI.

That would be my reaction too and by the sound of your post you probably already know this.

This is also why I work with 2 CFIs, each has their pro's and con's and you learn which is most helpful in certain situations and that's who you work with. In my case one is better at helping me with my stick and rudder skills while the other I do XC with and helps me with some of the broader aviation theories and flight material.

 

[MikeELP]

Find a new CFI.

Agreed.

Find a CFI that will sit with you and really PLAN a cross country. This guy may be teaching you how to fly an airplane, but he is certainly not training you to become a pilot.

Mike

 

[hyphen81]

Where you on an IFR clearance? If yes, than it is "no biggie". Otherwise, it's an FAR and common sense violation.



. There is no reason for a primary student to be flying a lightplane next to a T-storm. Especially after a cloud bust.

Find a new CFI.

We were VFR.

I'm not really surprised to hear you guys saying that I should find a new CFI, although I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be the result bc I almost feel bad for the guy. I know he's a good pilot, but sometimes I think he just expects me to be able to do the stuff he can do and forgets I'm a low-time student, and then gets frustrated when I can't do it..

I think I'm his only student and the only other student he's had since I've been there quit after a couple of lessons bc he didn't like being yelled at.


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[ChrisK]

1 - as a private pilot, you will probably end up closer than you want to be to a thunderstorm. You will deal with it by getting the heck out and while on the ground you will question your decision to launch / continue

2 - as a student, there is no reason to launch into a sigmet unless your instructor knows exactly what it is for and has reason to be assured that it won't impact your flight, and even then, it usually is poor decision making

3 - you might get within 500' of the bottom of a cloud, be unsure if your visibility is exactly 3 miles, etc. You should avoid these things, but we all know that sometimes despite our best intentions these violations may well happen in the real world. If your instructor had you fly through some rain that reduced your visibility, that might not be a big deal. If your instructor had you fly through a cloud not on an instrument clearance, that's really bad. If your instructor had you fly through a cloud ON an instrument clearance, while I consider that poor judgement on the instructor's part, it isn't illegal.

I've had instructors do dumb things. One did things so dumb I had to call AOPA legal because some of my training was potentially not applicable to a rating. As a primary student, I had no idea what was dumb, and had to rely on and learn from my instructor regarding proper judgement.

Without being there, I can't really say what happened. I've had ATC completely wig out about conditions they saw that weren't there (but that is pretty rare). I've had ATC send me towards tstorm cells I thought were right off my nose but when I looked later were actually 40 miles away. I've flown in perfectly good MVFR that made me glad I had an instrument rating and have ATC none the wiser. Sometimes what is going on in the real world, what we perceive is happening, and what ATC sees are all completely different things. I'm not justifying what your instructor did, but until you have real experience behind you, it will be difficult for you to second guess your instructor, even with ATC seeming to question you.

If nothing else, it seems that you don't trust your instructor. That might be a good reason to shop around a bit.

 

[MikeELP]

....I know he's a good pilot, but sometimes I think he just expects me to be able to do the stuff he can do and forgets I'm a low-time student, and then gets frustrated when I can't do it..

Jon, there are many very good pilots out there that are terrible teachers yet they somehow obtained a CFI certificate. Remember - the CFI works for you, not the other way around. You can dismiss him at any time you want. Sorry to hear you're having this bad experience.

Boot this guy to the curb and find a CFI that is genuinely interested in teaching.

Best,

Mike

 

[TUPilot]

Agree with the above. Learning to fly can be stressful enough when you are trying to apply new concepts in the cockpit with a calm instructor guiding you.

For a CFI teaching ability and judgement are more important than stick and rudder skills. I obviously haven't spoken with your CFI and I wasn't there, but if you are seriously concerned with that your CFI lacks judgement and you find his teaching style stressful you want to be looking elsewhere.

By the way, I've only outright yelled at a student once in the cockpit, and I still feel bad about it...

 

[murphey]

Agreed.

Find a CFI that will sit with you and really PLAN a cross country. This guy may be teaching you how to fly an airplane, but he is certainly not training you to become a pilot.

Mike

Before you find another CFI, three things....
First, do not rely on the CFI to make decisions. You are in training to make the decisions.
Second, if you are not confortable with the decisions the CFI makes, speak up and insist on returning to the airport.
Third, be very clear with the CFI you were not comfortable with the flight, the weather and his attitude. If he will change his approach, then you will continue flying with him. If he insists his way or the highway, then take the highway.

Then find a new CFI.

Under no circumstances should you ever agree to a flight where you feel uncomfortable at that level. Stretching you comfort level is good, flying in very queationable circumstances is not good.

 

[murphey]

We were VFR.

I'm not really surprised to hear you guys saying that I should find a new CFI, although I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be the result bc I almost feel bad for the guy. I know he's a good pilot, but sometimes I think he just expects me to be able to do the stuff he can do and forgets I'm a low-time student, and then gets frustrated when I can't do it..

I think I'm his only student and the only other student he's had since I've been there quit after a couple of lessons bc he didn't like being yelled at.

gee, I wonder why. If the CFI hasn't gotten the message yet, someone needs to explain it to him.

 

[hyphen81]

To clarify, I'm not sure if we flew directly through the rain CLOUD or not...it was a huge dark mass with a lot of rain that looked very similar to the cloud itself, we flew through rain for sure, but I'm not sure it was through the cloud itself as my original comment would lead you to believe. All I know is it was raining hard and I couldn't see more than a few feet ahead, and could barely see the ground when I looked down.


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[warthog1984]

Jon,

Even if what the CFI did was perfectly legal, it sounds like you've lost confidence in him.

Move on and find a different CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hey guys...I posted last week about struggling with flight planning, got some really good advice, and met with my instructor to plan a short XC.

things didn't go quite like I had hoped. We met and his first question was, "well, what have you got?" I had told him I wanted to meet and plan something together and then go fly it, but apparently it didn't register, so he was surprised to plan something together. Anyway, we "planned" a quick XC. The first leg we tracked a Radial to a VOR and the next leg we tracked a radial from a VOR, then the last leg he said we'd just try to find our way home. He seemed very seat-of-your pants in his flight planning.

I think you need a more by-the-book instructor.

We basically just used the winds aloft at 3,000 feet even though our altitude would be 2,000. That seemed ok, and we used 10GPH and 115 TAS for the calculations but never cracked a POH.

I'm interested to know if this type of "seat-of-your-pants" planning will suffice with a DPE? My guess is probably not

Your guess is correct.

This is where things got interesting for me. Maybe others will say this is no big deal, but I'd like to preface this by saying the last time I flew was 7/11, and I've never flown in anything more than high overcast conditions. arguably this was good experience for me, although I'm not feeling that way right now.

As we were taxiing out to the runway, we hear a SIGMET advisory for our airport. Things are still VFR so we go ahead and take off.

I'm really rusty and immediately start making mistakes, and my CFI is immediately frustrated and is all but yelling at me to keep right rudder in (I know this, but again, I'm rusty.). We fly out a few miles from the airport and we fly through a rain cloud, it was bumpy and I couldn't see anything, but we came out the other side, no biggie. At this point I'm a bit stressed from being rusty, getting fussed at, and then doing a horrible job managing all the various tasks and trying to look for check points.

Now I know you need another instructor -- this one is, well, let's just say "not very professional" in his conduct of training. Time to find someone more interested in teaching and less interested in how much time he can spend in flight.

If you want me to come down there for a week or so and push you through the program (XC's, test prep, and done), let me know. :wink2:

 

[JohnAJohnson]

Everything you do and everything you are being taught should be referenced to an objective/maneuver required to pass the check ride. Anything else? Hire the CFI to show you AFTER you get your ticket. So no matter if it is this CFI or the next one you hire, they should be able to reference the lesson to the Practical Test Standard.

 

[TUPilot]

Everything you do and everything you are being taught should be referenced to an objective/maneuver required to pass the check ride.

The PTS is a basis for evaluation, but most instructors will try and teach students practical knowledge and skills that will reduce risk and enhance their flying experience. New PPLs may easily find themselves in situations and conditions that are not covered in the PTS yet present added risk, and I view my job as preparing them for what they are likely to experience (in flight if possible but at the very least on the ground). That doesn't mean tons of extra hours or hard IFR...

In short, my students pay me to help them achieve specific goals, most commonly flying friends and family around safely for fun. When someone tells me that their goal is to pass a checkride, then turn in their certificate and never fly again I may consider not discussing anything outside the PTS.

 

[somorris]

I see no reason for the CFI to be yelling at you. You are spending a lot of money hiring him to teach you to fly, not yell at you.

That being said, I can understand that a good CFI may be more comfortable flying in questionable weather than would a new student. He might even be able to teach you a thing or two about weather flying. I would certainly hope that he would have better sense than to put you in a "for real" dangerous situation.

My CFI never spent any time teaching me about flight planning. He expected (and probably rightly so) that flight planning is something a student should learn in ground school. Are there any courses available around Nashville, maybe in community colleges, that have ground school classes? Check with the flight schools at Nashville's airport. Maybe you can find someone to teach you if you are having difficulty learning on your own from textbooks and/or videos.

Next time you go out to fly, if I were you, I would have a serious conversation with my CFI about the yelling. If that didn't stop, I would find another CFI. It doesn't have to be that way, and no, it is not you.

 

[James331]

I'm not a by the book CFI ether, but your CFIs actions were very foolish.

As for your cross country for a PPL, most of it should have been using land marks and your chart, maybe one leg using a VOR, but its primarily sposed to be a VFR operation --> emphasis on the visual part.


My guys do quite a bit of self study, with TWO exceptions, I always go over weight and balance and cross countries with them one on one. We will do one or two together, after that I have them go home a do another 4 or 5, that most always gets that box thoroughly checked.

The yelling would be immediate termination of the flight and the CFI, I would also not pay for that flight.

I wouldn't bother to make trouble for the CFI with the Feds, but explain to him you're leaving him because he was reckless and clearly violated FARs during your brief flight.

Find a new CFI, I'd find a locally recommend one, ATP/Gold Seal doesn't guarantee anything though it is a good sign as well.

Sorry to hear about your experience


Blue Skies

 

[bobmrg]

I have scrubbed instructional flights on nice clear days when there was a SIGMET for the area in which we would be flying. I did not want my students to get the impression that a SIGMET could be safely ignored. AIRMETS are pretty much aimed at small aircraft but SIGMETS apply to everyone...even the airlines pay attention to SIGMETS.

Having a student or low-time pilot make his/her own decision about challenging a SIGMET just doesn't work for me. Overkill? Maybe, but I sleep better at night.

Bob Gardner

 

[gitmo234]

If you feel the slightest bit like something isn't right, get someone else. It's your $10k, make sure you get what you want out of it. Plenty of CFIs will be more than happy to provide the service

 

[hyphen81]

I'm not a by the book CFI ether, but your CFIs actions were very foolish.



As for your cross country for a PPL, most of it should have been using land marks and your chart, maybe one leg using a VOR, but its primarily sposed to be a VFR operation --> emphasis on the visual part.





My guys do quite a bit of self study, with TWO exceptions, I always go over weight and balance and cross countries with them one on one. We will do one or two together, after that I have them go home a do another 4 or 5, that most always gets that box thoroughly checked.



The yelling would be immediate termination of the flight and the CFI, I would also not pay for that flight.



I wouldn't bother to make trouble for the CFI with the Feds, but explain to him you're leaving him because he was reckless and clearly violated FARs during your brief flight.

I didn't get any training with my CFI in weight and balance. I figured it out on my own (or at least I hope I did).


He seems to be only slightly more involved in flight planning.

I think I do need to get rid of this guy, as much as I don't relish the idea of that conversation.


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[tmyers]

Have you taken a ground school or at least worked on one of the ground school courses? W&B and dead reckoning would be covered in the course to give you a good feel for what you need to do. Couple this knowledge with some guidance from your CFI should bring it home for you.

I learned the old way filling in all the boxes on my E6B, and while that is not imperative in this modern world of GPS and all, it was good to understand what all was involved in calculating a flight.

There is a great deal of satisfaction when you have flown by dead reckoning and your landmark appears where it is supposed to and when it is supposed to.

 

[James331]

I didn't get any training with my CFI in weight and balance. I figured it out on my own (or at least I hope I did).


He seems to be only slightly more involved in flight planning.

I think I do need to get rid of this guy, as much as I don't relish the idea of that conversation.


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You could have eventually figured out the planning too

Those are just two areas that the student can struggle with, or I can go over it with them quick and easy and make it a non event.

Not just yes to getting rid of that CFI, but hell yes!!!

I would have thought twice, even as an multi thousand hour ATP/CFI in a FIKI, radar & pressurized turbine, before launching into a convective sigmet.

... boxes on my E6B, and while that is not imperative in this modern world of GPS and all,...

Actually it's still quite imperative. My students don't even get a VOR for their x-countries. The ones who fly long enough end up thanking me for it too.

 

[Tex_Mike]

I had problems with a couple of my CFI's and had no problems getting rid of them. The first yahoo flew us down into a bayou. Our wings were level with the bank. Not cool at all. That was the last flight with that one. The next one took me on a x-country where the plan was for me to learn pilotage. About 10 minutes into the flight he takes us above a cloud layer and I spent the next 45 minutes looking at the tops of clouds and following the magenta line. Easy money for the CFI but not what I was paying for.

There are lots of CFI's out there. Some good and some bad. Find a good one.

 

[tmyers]

You could have eventually figured out the planning too

Those are just two areas that the student can struggle with, or I can go over it with them quick and easy and make it a non event.

Not just yes to getting rid of that CFI, but hell yes!!!

I would have thought twice, even as an multi thousand hour ATP/CFI in a FIKI, radar & pressurized turbine, before launching into a convective sigmet.



Actually it's still quite imperative. My students don't even get a VOR for their x-countries. The ones who fly long enough end up thanking me for it too.

I was referring to realtime world flying. I still consider it as very important in the world of training

 

[James331]

I was referring to realtime world flying. I still consider it as very important in the world of training

Real world too, the second you put all your eggs in one digital basket .....


But yeah, for 99% of the time you're right

 

[tmyers]

I like to mix it up. Set the GPS but tune vies along the way plus identifying land marks for situational awarness. Anything can break at anytime but that lake that is supposed to be to my left isn't likely to move

 

[tmyers]

VORs that is

 

[warthog1984]

Question for the OP:

Have you sat down with a pre-packaged ground school course (Sporty's, King, CPC, etc...)?

That's the cheap, simple way to cover the book learning if your eyes glaze over reading the FAA texts.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I have scrubbed instructional flights on nice clear days when there was a SIGMET for the area in which we would be flying. I did not want my students to get the impression that a SIGMET could be safely ignored. AIRMETS are pretty much aimed at small aircraft but SIGMETS apply to everyone...even the airlines pay attention to SIGMETS.

Sure, airlines pay attention to them, to see how much extra gas to put on and perhaps which way to deviate when they get there. But it's not like a 121/135 carrier is scrubbing flights because there is a convective sigmet.

 

[James331]

Sure, airlines pay attention to them, to see how much extra gas to put on and perhaps which way to deviate when they get there. But it's not like a 121/135 carrier is scrubbing flights because there is a convective sigmet.

Depends on where it is and what it looks like, but yeah, at least for the 135 side of the house flights will be scrubbed for convective activity, fly through a squall line and see how that goes over.

If you can get around it great, if its a big mess of red and worse parked over your airport, just go back in the FBO and eat some cookies.

 

[txflyer]

OP's CFI sounds like either a real hard ass or a dumb ass, I can't determine which.

Taking a intro pilot or student up that hasn't been up since 2011 into MVFR with Sigmets and "we could see the air to air lightning" doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Then yelling at the 'virgin' student because he is ****ing up is icing on the cake. I'd fire his crazy ass in a New York minute.

 

[StinkBug]

My instructor got progressively less lenient about my flying performance the longer we trained. As I got closer to my Checkride my CFI got more "stern" with my mistakes, but never yelling, and he warned me about it up front. He was leaning on me to make things perfect. It made things a little more stressful, but it worked. When I did something wrong he called me on it, and I was unhappy at myself for not doing it right. Had he actually yelled at me for a firm landing or a sloppy maneuver I would have been unhappy with HIM for it. Yelling at you for not getting something right isn't teaching. Explaining what you did wrong, and how to fix it is.

The weather thing.....that's just dangerous and possibly illegal. He's making poor choices and having you pay him for them. We have IFR conditions almost every morning here, but it's just a low marine layer that is very stable and safe. Even knowing that we only flew through it (on an IFR clearance) one time during training, and it was only because we were running out of time before the checkride and the layer was from 700-1300'. We got clearance, punched through, then went back to clear sunny VFR on top. No way he'd take us up in any kind of actual weather, nor would I want him to.

It's time to run. Either have the uncomfortable conversation with him, or simply stop calling him. It's your money, you aren't required to do anything.

 

[hyphen81]

Question for the OP:

Have you sat down with a pre-packaged ground school course (Sporty's, King, CPC, etc...)?

That's the cheap, simple way to cover the book learning if your eyes glaze over reading the FAA texts.

I haven't. I have the Jepp book that I'm working through, and I had Bob Gardner's book as well. Would you recommend getting on of the courses you mentioned as well?


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[hyphen81]

Taking a intro pilot or student up that hasn't been up since 2011 into MVFR with Sigmets and "we could see the air to air lightning" doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean 7 of 2011, I meant 7/11 of this year, not quite THAT rusty, but it's definitely not all muscle memory yet.


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[LDJones]

Lots to comment on here, but the getting "yelled at" by your instructor troubles me. When does a service provider yell at a paying customer/client? That makes no sense to me. I think you should find a better instructor.

 

[warthog1984]

I haven't. I have the Jepp book that I'm working through, and I had Bob Gardner's book as well. Would you recommend getting on of the courses you mentioned as well?


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I would, just because videos and/or computer interactive tests can start to make things click for some people. Since you're having problems with the planning fundamentals, you might see if you can borrow a set of DVDs from someone- it doesn't need to be the latest-and-greatest with the most current FARs.

You can do a search for threads discussing pros and cons of each course, if you wish.

 

[BigBadLou]

I second the recommendation to find another instructor.
I am not making any judgment on your current CFI (even though I think I could, very easily) but the most important rule in flight training is that YOU feel comfortable with your instructor so that you can learn from him.

I got lucky with mine, very nice guy, explained things well, demonstrated maneuvers, didn't yell, provided constructive feedback, provided positive feedback, communicated well, was safe, wanted me to be safe .... the list could go on. The only problem I had with him was his limited availability but I was willing to work with that because he was just worth the patience.

Safe skies and have fun up there!
Lou

 

[KA550]

Lots to comment on here, but the getting "yelled at" by your instructor troubles me. When does a service provider yell at a paying customer/client? That makes no sense to me. I think you should find a better instructor.

As usual, everyone is rushing to blame the instructor based on one person's telling of the tale of the flight. Instructor most likely has a different take on what actually transpired.

 

[mark.staggs]

Hey, Jon,

The timing sucks since I'm about to be out of town for a week or so, but if you want to just go up with me on a $100 hamburger run or something let me know. (A trip to KSIK for some "throwed rolls" is pretty easy from here.) I think maybe a calm ride somewhere where you can sit back and observe and/or work the radios might be good for you.

And to reiterate what some others here have said, it sounds like you've lost confidence or compatibility with your CFI. This happened to me with one of my instructors in Memphis, and in hindsight I wish I'd found someone else. I wasted a lot of time trying to bridge the gap between her teaching style and my learning style. Something the student shouldn't be doing, IMO. She was also fond of yelling at her students, and one of the last times we flew I literally had to say, "You need to shut up for a while." It worked--but it doesn't need to come to that.

Mark

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Depends on where it is and what it looks like, but yeah, at least for the 135 side of the house flights will be scrubbed for convective activity, fly through a squall line and see how that goes over.

If you can get around it great, if its a big mess of red and worse parked over your airport, just go back in the FBO and eat some cookies.

Your 135 must be different than mine, that's for sure. Its just another item for us, plan on how to get around, but you're going no matter what, unless its not legal.