Flying without license/insurance?

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PoppaJimmy

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Jimmy
A couple of times I've read things on this forum which seem to mention in passing that there were people flying without licenses, or who are licensed but without insurance. Neither of these had ever occurred to me before so, I thought I'd ask.

1. Is there a significant number of people flying without licenses?

2. What is the situation with people flying without insurance? Yes, No? Good, Bad?

I hope I don't sound like I'm either judging or recommending anything here. This is purely for my own information because I truly have no idea. Thanks.

Be Well,

Jimmy
 
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It should be noted that 1 is illegal and the other is not. Unlike cars you can fly a plane without insurance ( not that I would recommend that )
 
If you go to some states in the south, then auto insurance also seems to be optional. I was astounded when my auto insurance went up when moving from DC to Shreveport.

When I asked why, my agent said that LA had the highest rate of uninsured motorists in the country.
 
I remember hearing a story about a guy from an FSDO in Alaska saying his goal was to get 50% of the pilots in the state licensed...when pressed, he said the current number was closer to 30% of people flying had licenses.
 
JeffDG said:
I remember hearing a story about a guy from an FSDO in Alaska saying his goal was to get 50% of the pilots in the state licensed...when pressed, he said the current number was closer to 30% of people flying had licenses.
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Yeah, but that's Alaska. And Alaska is, um... Special.

(See "Sarah Palin." :rofl:)
 
Well, of the four aircraft I got serious enough to try and track down history on, at least two had been operated by non-certificated persons at some point. But I was digging in the low cost LSA market.

One aircraft had never been registered. Another had "condition inspections" done by someone who was not an A&P and did not have a repairmans certificate for the aircraft.
 
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Read through the NTSB accident reports, you will see plenty of notes about the lack of current medical status, prohibited medications or undisclosed disqualifying conditions, lack of passenger currency, lack of proper certification for the operation in question, and yes lack of pilot certificates altogether.

You can easily come to the cynical conclusion that it is the wild west out there. But then again the proportion of these problems are likely higher among pilots appearing in NTSB accident reports than among the pilot population as a whole.
 
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Back in an earlier life at a place far far away there was a small 3000' paved rural airport. One year around christmas time we had a pot luck dinner and almost everyone who had a plane or flew out of that airport attended. I estimate maybe 40 people were there. One thing led to another and the topic of pilot licenses came up. I am guessing 95 % of those guys/gals were completely honest in their answer. Believe it or not but..

6 of us were legal, all the rest either lost their ticket or never had one. The most common answer they all gave was " what are they gonna do, take my license away ???? I was floored but that is the way it was. And probably still is, altho not to that extreme count. ymmv. :dunno::dunno: :eek:
 
My experience has been similar to Ben's. I've been based (at least temporarily) at a lot of airports in my mere 8+ years of flying and I'd guess it's about a 50/50 split between those flying legally and illegally.

Off the top of my head, I've been based for 3 months or more at:

KHRO, KSGF, 0T3, MS82, 1G5, KARG, 1G1, 8A0, KOPN, KSBO, KOZK, KDNL, KAZE, KABY, KATW, KCLI (and I'm sure a few more) and I've met a VERY interesting mix of folks.
 
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bender52 said:
If you go to some states in the south, then auto insurance also seems to be optional. I was astounded when my auto insurance went up when moving from DC to Shreveport.

When I asked why, my agent said that LA had the highest rate of uninsured motorists in the country.
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That does not mean that insurance is not required in LA.
It means that drivers choose not to buy it because the rates are too high.

And if someone that lives in a tar paper shack hits you.. and they have not insurance.. sure.. sue'em... that got nothing worth taking anyway.

Trust me.. I've seen the shacks
 
Logbook says my first lesson was in 2002. I can honestly say that, until this month, the thought that there were people flying without licenses never once crossed my mind in all that period. :eek: I'm not saying it's wrong or right, just that I never thought about it. I'm assuming these people are not renting, no?

I don't know what I would have said if asked whether it is legal to fly without insurance. Again, I never thought about it. If I had, I imagine I would have tried to think of a CFR, and failed. Hmmm.

Be Well,

Jimmy
 
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N801BH said:
The most common answer they all gave was " what are they gonna do, take my license away ????
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Assess a civil penalty of several thousand dollars, and if that doesn't change their behavior, potentially/theoretically/eventually, put them in jail for civil contempt (and I do remember hearing of one case where that actually happened).
 
I have a hunch that most of our unlicensed, expired medical pilots will be based at airports outside the thirty mile veil. There just seems to be more government types, as in FAA, around airports within the class B area.

I was talking to an old retired big iron pilot who had owned a Bonanza, who told me he flew it from Gillespie Field (KSEE) for three years without a medical. I asked him why he stopped, he said his nerves finally caught up to him. He said the worry took the fun out of it.

That's the whole problem, it is not getting ramp checked that worries most folks, its what would happen if things went wrong? Having no insurance can wipe out a retirement nest egg in no time. If it is a younger scofflaw, having ones wages garnisheed for the next twenty or thirty years can be significantly life altering. It's really hard to even find a job, much less keep one with a garnishment order hanging over you and your boss's head.

Your insurance company's primary goal after an accident is to find a reason to disqualify your policy. Flying without a license or a current medical works well for them.

John
 
BillTIZ said:
Trust me.. I've seen the shacks
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As an air Force Brat i lived in Newfoundland in the late '50's, & saw how the poor Newfies lived. Then 5 yrs later we were in central Louisiana and I was aghast(at 12 yrs old) at the extreme poverty in America. INSURANCE??? Those folk have more to worry about than insurance. Dave
 
Your insurance company's primary goal after an accident is to find a reason to disqualify your policy.

A little over 10 years ago I had an airplane totaled. AIG paid off without a question, allowed me to buy back the remains of my plane, refunded the unused portion of my policy premium and re-insured me when I purchased a replacement without penalty.

Just my own experience. Others might have a different story to tell.

Paul
N1431A
2AZ1
 
Graueradler said:
You left our unlicensed pilots flying unregistered planes.
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'Cause I didn't know about that one. Add it to the list: Unlicensed, Uninsured, Unregistered.... any more that I left out (I'm not talking about stolen or running drugs, etc. I mean 'regular' people flying un.... whatever)? :eek:

Be Well,

Jimmy
 
I know one guy who was unlicensed and took his instructors plane for a ride... right into a TFR. The instructor got a phone call telling him that his plane was tampered with and he should come to the airport immediately as there was damage done to it. When he arrived there were all kinds of 3 letter jackets waiting for him.

The student now has a private cert and is very dangerous. One guy I refuse to go up with. He's one of the nicest people I know, but he really lacks common sense in all areas.
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, CURRENTLY ALIVE is nice, but I know that Henning has violated even that. :)
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I'm thinkin' the only requirement is that the passengers arrive in the same condition (or better) they were in at departure...
 
I know of a couple here flying without insurance, or a medical. One went to a KSPI flyin, on a saturday. The FAA was ramping. He got out and got back in and departed.

This guy cruises on autopilot in IMC when in a pickle but mostly stays VFR (Cessna 150). He had an MI about six years ago and has ischemia. We'll read about him pretty soon. Big guy in the EAA. Sometimes when he gets pompous, I think "I'm gonna bust him". But he doesn't need me to add to his troubles, and I don't think he's going to hurt anyone but himself. Sigh.
 
I have been an airplane owner for a few months, I'm licensed and my plane is legal, but i have decided to not insure the plane. I have no wife and kids, only take up a few close friends and family, so i'm not too worried about being sued. Odds are anything that would set off a lawsuit would also kill me, so not a big risk to me.

But i work hard to keep myself and my plane legal and able to pass FAA scrutiny. Not because im afraid of the feds wrath, but because the rules we have are reasonable for the most part, and i have no real reason to break them.

And i'm not just saying that because the FAA is reading this forum..... Seriously watch what you say.
 
NotSure said:
Odds are anything that would set off a lawsuit would also kill me, so not a big risk to me.
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I hate to pick on you, but that is simply not true. What happens when you make a 2 foot error and taxi your wingtip into the Learjet on the ramp? Or the 2008 Cirrus for that matter?

What happens when you have an emergency landing on private property and the owner balks at overland travel for the recovery and demands you helicopter it out? Or a forced landing on public lands in the middle of nowhere?

Or screw the pooch on a go-around, or maybe hydroplane on landing, and take out $25k worth of airport lights at a class C field. Or smash the nose or ankle of your buddy during a low speed noseover accident in a state that doesn't limit passenger liability for recreational flights, which is most.

You see, even when the other entities are insured, that doesn't mean that their insurance companies (even your buddy's health insurer) won't go after you to recoup their payouts.

Regardless of whether you have significant assets I'll assume you generate income that can be garnished for the rest of your life? BTDT, though fortunately the judgement was relatively small in my case and I am free of the obligation now.

Now, there is a good chance that the above or the 1000 other little possible scenarios won't happen. By all means roll the dice, plenty do. Plenty others are likely underinsured for liability, they carry just enough to get in trouble.

Skip hull protection on your own plane but carry liability.
 
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NotSure said:
I have been an airplane owner for a few months, I'm licensed and my plane is legal, but i have decided to not insure the plane. I have no wife and kids, only take up a few close friends and family, so i'm not too worried about being sued. Odds are anything that would set off a lawsuit would also kill me, so not a big risk to me.
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Personally I believe such an attitude is both selfish and unfair. What you're basically saying is that you expect others to cover the cost of any damage or injury you cause. I strongly believe that you should carry a reasonable amount of liability insurance for any airplane (or other vehicle capable of inflicting significant damage or harm). BTW many if not most states require this which makes me wonder if you might even be held criminally responsible (jail time) if you have an accident and have no liability insurance at all.

Are you aware that liability coverage is relatively inexpensive compared to hull protection?
 
Please carry liability. Please carry liability.

Garnished wages for 30 years isn't a lot of fun. And if in the landing accident you cripple someone, you WILL be garnished for 30 years.
 
bbchien said:
Please carry liability. Please carry liability.

Garnished wages for 30 years isn't a lot of fun. And if in the landing accident you cripple someone, you WILL be garnished for 30 years.
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Not to mention the shattered lives involved. I hope, and try to maintain / practice skills. My biggest fear is shattering someone's life like mine is. I can walk, but forget about running or jogging. Falls terrify me. The only thing that makes it bearable is the fact that I wasn't dogged by medical bills. I never want to leave another in a terrible situation.

Should I inadvertently cause damage to another's life I pray my insurance will cover it. I won't say satisfactorily cover it, because nothing can truly repair the damage. I hope it becomes bearable though.
 
gismo said:
Personally I believe such an attitude is both selfish and unfair. What you're basically saying is that you expect others to cover the cost of any damage or injury you cause. I strongly believe that you should carry a reasonable amount of liability insurance for any airplane (or other vehicle capable of inflicting significant damage or harm). BTW many if not most states require this which makes me wonder if you might even be held criminally responsible (jail time) if you have an accident and have no liability insurance at all.

Are you aware that liability coverage is relatively inexpensive compared to hull protection?
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You are entitled to your opinion. Relatively inexpensive it is not, at least in my case. Medical issue/SODA, low time (-200 hours) , i was quoted 4700/yr, and that was the only insurer that would even cover me. I have significant assets, so if i lose my rental properties, house, and boats, well i knew the risks going in. The risk of inflicting harm on others (ground damage, non passenger injuries) is extremely small, virtually non existent for GA. The insurance does not reflect risks, it reflects what insurers like to call a captive market. I choose not to be a prisoner. You can choose what you like.
 
gismo said:
NotSure said:
I have been an airplane owner for a few months, I'm licensed and my plane is legal, but i have decided to not insure the plane. I have no wife and kids, only take up a few close friends and family, so i'm not too worried about being sued. Odds are anything that would set off a lawsuit would also kill me, so not a big risk to me.
Click to expand...

Personally I believe such an attitude is both selfish and unfair. What you're basically saying is that you expect others to cover the cost of any damage or injury you cause. I strongly believe that you should carry a reasonable amount of liability insurance for any airplane (or other vehicle capable of inflicting significant damage or harm).
Click to expand...

I agree and I've always been troubled that this point doesn't come up more often when insurance is discussed.
 
bbchien said:
Please carry liability. Please carry liability.

Garnished wages for 30 years isn't a lot of fun. And if in the landing accident you cripple someone, you WILL be garnished for 30 years.
Click to expand...

Bruce, i respect your opinion, but i suspect your aviation medical practice has given you an exaggerated sense of risk (people getting back in after accidents, etc). I dont want to lose everything i own, but my god they want four times the amount of my home owners insurance, for half the coverage, at a much lower risk level. If it was $1200/y or something like that, i would agree it would be prudent. If it's over for 4k, for 1m smooth/250k passenger (my HOA policy provides better coverage), i will live with the risk. You have to draw a line somewhere, and thats mine.

If you are not as risk tolerant, or have a family to think of, then you should do what you think is right. It's not for everyone, but self insuring is workable.
 
I remember hearing a story about a guy from an FSDO in Alaska saying his goal was to get 50% of the pilots in the state licensed...when pressed, he said the current number was closer to 30% of people flying had licenses.
Click to expand...

I heard that same story. I heard it from a guy doing an ASF Safety Seminar in Fort Worth Texas. He is a guy who has 4000 hours in a Cessna 152.... lol
 
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