Flying without attitude indicator..

benyflyguy

benyflyguy

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benyflyguy
our attitude indicator (on vacuum) was acting up on club 182. We had it pulled and sent out for refurb earlier in the week.
Today was a CAVU morning in NEPA and I planned on taking kids up and heading to Blairstown 1N7 for breakfast at donnas runway cafe-excellent breakfast!!
Open up hangar and the front seat is removed. Presumably to make pulling the attitude indicator easier.
I texted the club that won’t be able to fly today because the seat is pulled. One of the club members is also involved with the maintenance shop. He Texted the maintenance guy, and the maintenance guy said he pulled the seat because the plane is not airworthy because it doesn’t have an attitude indicator.
The way I read the FAR specifically 91.205 -B is that I do not need an attitude indicator to fly in a severe clear day like today. In fact a lot of people are applying today without attitude indicator.
Heading indicator electric.
Is there something I’m missing here?
In fact because it’s not working and been pulled by the mechanic it’s even more airworthy then had it been in operative and not placarded.
 
Great time to consider going G5. I personally like an attitude indicator, even while flying VFR. Performing maneuvers or even stabilizing the plane hunting for altitude, it’s great to be able to pin the dot on the horizon line.

Mike Bush had an excellent webinar regarding the illegality of an A&P preventing a return to service. Responsibility for airworthiness falls to the owner and the pilot, not any mechanic. Of course and I/A can make a judgment about airworthiness and document discrepancies, but even then he’s required to return the plane to the owner who can then resolve those discrepancies in a manner they feel best working with an A&P.

An AI instrument is not required, but is beneficial in my view.
 
My guess is there are vaccum lines disconnected and not blocked off, possibly wires flapping loose in the breeze that he didn't feel like securing so that someone could fly with a missing AI.

As far as flying without one the only problem I can think of would be if it's in the airplane's required equipment list. I've flown home VFR with an INOP AI and as you say you don't really need it on a clear day.
 
Maybe he left an open vacuum line? Maybe he didn’t do the paperwork to document the removal?
 
Agree that AI not needed for VFR, but perhaps there was some other byproduct of removal that rendered the plane un-airworthy like an open vacuum line.
 
NordicDave said:
Great time to consider going G5. I personally like an attitude indicator, even while flying VFR. Performing maneuvers or even stabilizing the plane hunting for altitude, it’s great to be able to pin the dot on the horizon line.

Mike Bush had an excellent webinar regarding the illegality of an A&P preventing a return to service. Responsibility for airworthiness falls to the owner and the pilot, not any mechanic. Of course and I/A can make a judgment about airworthiness and document discrepancies, but even then he’s required to return the plane to the owner who can then resolve those discrepancies in a manner they feel best working with an A&P.

An AI instrument is not required, but is beneficial in my view.
Click to expand...
I made that argument for the G5. But of the 5 of us I’m the only that flies alot of instrument in the -82. others are instrument rated. One flies a lot of IFR in his twin. Other guy is an ATP.
I would like to find that webinar. The A/P is new to GA and was in military for quite some time. Might be good to share with him in a nice educational way.
 
Stewartb said:
Maybe he left an open vacuum line? Maybe he didn’t do the paperwork to document the removal?
Click to expand...
This. The only thing that would make it unairworthy from a VFR perspective would be if he disabled something else in the process and either didn’t want to address it in the meantime or didn’t want to make the required log entries.
 
benyflyguy said:
our attitude indicator (on vacuum) was acting up on club 182. We had it pulled and sent out for refurb earlier in the week.
Today was a CAVU morning in NEPA and I planned on taking kids up and heading to Blairstown 1N7 for breakfast at donnas runway cafe-excellent breakfast!!
Open up hangar and the front seat is removed. Presumably to make pulling the attitude indicator easier.
I texted the club that won’t be able to fly today because the seat is pulled. One of the club members is also involved with the maintenance shop. He Texted the maintenance guy, and the maintenance guy said he pulled the seat because the plane is not airworthy because it doesn’t have an attitude indicator.
The way I read the FAR specifically 91.205 -B is that I do not need an attitude indicator to fly in a severe clear day like today. In fact a lot of people are applying today without attitude indicator.
Heading indicator electric.
Is there something I’m missing here?
In fact because it’s not working and been pulled by the mechanic it’s even more airworthy then had it been in operative and not placarded.
Click to expand...

Maintenance dude is wrong. Or he knows the rules and wants to impose his own. Which in case maybe he is having attitude problems and needs an attitude adjustment. Or maybe the club itself has some rules about this

EDIT: Or what @Fearless Tower said above.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This. The only thing that would make it unairworthy from a VFR perspective would be if he disabled something else in the process and either didn’t want to address it in the meantime or didn’t want to make the required log entries.
Click to expand...
That could be. If so he should just say that. Instead said can’t fly without attitude indicator. Then said had to pull all vacuum lines so the DG is out but we have an electrical sandel HSI. Better communication would be better.
Honestly was bummed not to fly but my kid pitched a hissy and acted like a spoiled brat so I was happy not to fly. Can’t reinforce that behaviour.
 
benyflyguy said:
Is there something I’m missing here?
Click to expand...
No. Just the removal maintenance needs to be signed off and the inop indicator shown removed per 91.213. As long as you verified it's not needed for flight you should be ready to go. And if it's one of those ancient 10lb indicators you'll need to correct the wt/bal.
 
My plane was 54 years old when it got its first attitude indicator. I only put it in so students could see what 60 degrees looked like.
 
Or maybe the mechanic didn't want anyone messing with the plane while it is apart to make it easier to re-install the A/I.
 
Zeldman said:
Or maybe the mechanic didn't want anyone messing with the plane while it is apart to make it easier to re-install the A/I.
Click to expand...

Yeah. And wanted to play the FAR card rather than just telling the truth. If so, he needs an attitude adjustment
 
cowman said:
My guess is there are vaccum lines disconnected and not blocked off, possibly wires flapping loose in the breeze that he didn't feel like securing so that someone could fly with a missing AI.

As far as flying without one the only problem I can think of would be if it's in the airplane's required equipment list. I've flown home VFR with an INOP AI and as you say you don't really need it on a clear day.
Click to expand...

I’ve noticed mention of the airplane required equipment list here on AOA before.
Is it something that would be found on a case by case basis in the POH? Or is it somewhere else? If in the POH and no list, then it would fall back on the regs? The required instruments for VFR?
 
Bell206 said:
No. Just the removal maintenance needs to be signed off and the inop indicator shown removed per 91.213. As long as you verified it's not needed for flight you should be ready to go. And if it's one of those ancient 10lb indicators you'll need to correct the wt/bal.
Click to expand...
your slipping bell206, i know you know that an A/I weighs more than a pound and you forgot to mention the W/B needs to be updated. :)
 
There are Ercoupes (and other classics) flying VFR since the 1940’s without attitude indicators, including ours.

cheers
 
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LongRoadBob said:
Is it something that would be found on a case by case basis in the POH?
Click to expand...
If you're talking about a Kinds of Operations List (KOL) found in the approved limitations section of a POH/AFM then yes that list would have precedence over any other equipment list as it is part of the aircraft TC. The KOL just makes it easier to understand the TC requirements. However, in my limited experience, I've not seen a KOL go against the DAY VFR minimum requirements of 91.205 but have seen where the KOL added more items like low voltage warn lights, etc.
 
Lol I thought about that wb. Would be my luck that I would go out without and AI and don’t have updated log or w/b and get ramp checked.
 
VFR Panel, IFR in a pinch.

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The mechanic is correct...as the airplane sits (even with the seat reinstalled) the airplane is not legal to fly

I think the bottom line is that if you wanted to fly the airplane in the interim, someone should have coordinated with the mechanic to sign off the removal and amend the weight and balance ahead of time rather than blaming him for a lack of clairvoyance.
 
In the future I should/our club should probably do a better job of reviewing and understanding expectations when plane is getting something like this done.
 
G5’s are cheap. I am saving $.68/hour on vacuum system maintenance.
 
Wait, is the seat on the required equipment list? :>)
 
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