Flying with another student pilot? Allowed?

Hocky

Hocky

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Hocky
Is there any legal way for two student pilots who are both signed off to fly solo by their instructors to fly together? Or is that considered taking a passenger?
 
You could have Bob Hoover himself in that plane and if you are PIC as a primary student pilot then he is a pax and the answer is no. So if you want to fly with your student friend, make sure there is a CFI along and he or she is pic.
 
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Short answer NO


Surprised that question wasn't on your pre-solo quiz, it's on mine and most other pre-solos I've seen.
 
Hocky said:
Is there any legal way for two student pilots who are both signed off to fly solo by their instructors to fly together? Or is that considered taking a passenger?
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Is the other student pilot pilot in command with a solo signoff?

If yes, then you are not PIC and cannot use your solo signoff

If no, then you are PIC and he is a passenger.

Logic?
 
I was just wondering if there is some way both can be PIC through some loophole or something. Sorry. Stupid question.
 
Hocky said:
Sorry. Stupid question.
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Nope.... GOOD question. Shows us you're doing your best to learn the ins and outs of what's legal and what's not.

If you have an iPad, FAR/AIM app from ASA (click the link) is a very useful tool to answer questions like this. It might take a bit to find the answer in the FAR, but it's likely there.

An example of using it was during my IFR training with Ron Levy. When asked if I remembered Lost Comms procedures or what was required for aircraft and pilot to legally operate IFR, I was coached that the answers are in the Part 91 section of the FARs. With the app, I was able to quickly find the answer and review.
 
Not too long ago 2 Chinese students went for a flight together. The knew this was not allowed, so the stopped short of the school and one hopped out... and ran right into the prop.
 
comanchepilot said:
If no, then you are PIC and he is a passenger.

Logic?
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Which is not not legal for a student pilot, it even says not for passenger carrage on your student pilots license too I think
 
"Signed off to solo" is the commanding sentence here that should give you the answer to your question.
 
Henning said:
Not too long ago 2 Chinese students went for a flight together. The knew this was not allowed, so the stopped short of the school and one hopped out... and ran right into the prop.
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Darwinism at work?
 
Nothing new.

I happened to be at the FBO at Opa Locka when one of my foreign students returned from his long, solo cross country.

But he had a friend with him.

Needless to say, he could not log it. It was a long time ago., bu I think his friend had just gotten his license. So, horrible judgment, but not an illegal flight, per sé.
 
FastEddieB said:
Nothing new.

I happened to be at the FBO at Opa Locka when one of my foreign students returned from his long, solo cross country.

But he had a friend with him.

Needless to say, he could not log it. It was a long time ago., bu I think his friend had just gotten his license. So, horrible judgment, but not an illegal flight, per sé.
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Did you sign him off for another XC? I'd hesitate if he blew my trust the first time.
 
FastEddieB said:
Nothing new.

I happened to be at the FBO at Opa Locka when one of my foreign students returned from his long, solo cross country.

But he had a friend with him.

Needless to say, he could not log it. It was a long time ago., bu I think his friend had just gotten his license. So, horrible judgment, but not an illegal flight, per sé.
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If he and his friend agreed that it was his cross country, then your student was the agreed upon PIC, and his friend was a passenger, so it was illegal I think.
 
Johann said:
If he and his friend agreed that it was his cross country, then your student was the agreed upon PIC, and his friend was a passenger, so it was illegal I think.
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If the plane crashed, I suspect the one with the PPL would be considered PIC, but I could be wrong.;)
I fly a lot with my son in the left seat, I'm not a CFI and he can't log the time as I am PIC from the right seat. :D
 
Johann said:
If he and his friend agreed that it was his cross country, then your student was the agreed upon PIC, and his friend was a passenger, so it was illegal I think.
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How can a licensed PPL agree to let a student pilot be the PIC? Legally, the friend was PIC, and the student was a pax... and so could not log the flight as it was not solo and not training.
 
azure said:
How can a licensed PPL agree to let a student pilot be the PIC? Legally, the friend was PIC, and the student was a pax... and so could not log the flight as it was not solo and not training.
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Of course. He was talking about if that, however, was the intent of the student. If not and he was acting as the PIC, since he was on his "solo x/c," then...
 
Are you sure someone didn't explain student restrictions when you first started training. Or.....you could have asked someone at the FBO. Easy. Simple.
 
Timmer said:
Of course. He was talking about if that, however, was the intent of the student. If not and he was acting as the PIC, since he was on his "solo x/c," then...
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The student should have flunked his pre-solo test, if he intended a flight with someone else to be loggable as "solo".

The poster I quoted said that the intent made it an illegal flight. I don't think that's correct. I think whether it was legal or not depends on the friend's qualifications to be PIC, and probably also on whether the friend was in a seat with access to the controls. If those conditions were met, the friend was PIC and the flight was legal.
 
azure said:
The student should have flunked his pre-solo test, if he intended a flight with someone else to be loggable as "solo".

The poster I quoted said that the intent made it an illegal flight. I don't think that's correct. I think whether it was legal or not depends on the friend's qualifications to be PIC, and probably also on whether the friend was in a seat with access to the controls. If those conditions were met, the friend was PIC and the flight was legal.
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Yes, I'm sure they didn't really talk it through, so there was no explicit agreement.
But the other PPL probably didn't know the rules (or didn't care), otherwise he would have said "you can't be PIC, so I can't come along. If I come along I have to be PIC and you are not doing your solo cross country, I'm just taking you for a ride and letting you handle the controls".

Since the plane was rented for the student solo cross country, and they were flying that (I'm assuming since he intended to log that flight), if the plane crashed the investigation could have turned that up when talking to the FBO, and the NTSB might have concluded it was an illegal flight since the student was being PIC. Unless the other student was checked out to rent and rented under his name.

It's all speculation anyway, and since there is no signed form that has to be on the plane with the "agreement to be PIC", it could have been changed on the fly if something happened and they wanted to hide something.
 
Yes, it's all speculation. But you might be thinking of a different situation. When you have two licensed pilots in the airplane, then I agree, they can agree as to who is the PIC. Example: pilot flying with safety pilot for hood work, and they both want to log PIC. I don't think an agreement between a licensed pilot and a student that the student was PIC would carry any legal weight, if there was an investigation.
 
azure said:
Yes, it's all speculation. But you might be thinking of a different situation. When you have two licensed pilots in the airplane, then I agree, they can agree as to who is the PIC. Example: pilot flying with safety pilot for hood work, and they both want to log PIC. I don't think an agreement between a licensed pilot and a student that the student was PIC would carry any legal weight, if there was an investigation.
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There is only one scenario where a student is PIC and that is when the student is the sole occupant of the aircraft and said student is properly endorsed for solo flight, along the route of flight specified (or airspace as applicable and endorsed) with proper documentation in possession of the student. I think that is the language you're looking for.

However, there is nothing that precludes a student from renting an aircraft then changing his mind about flying and allowing a qualified PPL (with rental privileges) to board the aircraft and act as PIC, while the student acts as passenger. This might be disallowed by the FBO, but no regulation would be broken. If the flight resulted in a fatality, absent the "fly on the wall" revealing this change in responsibility the FAA/NTSB conclusion would be an unauthorized flight by a student pilot.
 
Jaybird180 said:
However, there is nothing that precludes a student from renting an aircraft then changing his mind about flying and allowing a qualified PPL (with rental privileges) to board the aircraft and act as PIC, while the student acts as passenger. This might be disallowed by the FBO, but no regulation would be broken. If the flight resulted in a fatality, absent the "fly on the wall" revealing this change in responsibility the FAA/NTSB conclusion would be an unauthorized flight by a student pilot.
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This paragraph is confusing. Barring any evidence to the contrary, the FAA/NTSB would conclude that the licensed pilot was PIC.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why?:confused:
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Because as I read the paragraph, you make it sound like the FAA will go after the student pilot rather than the properly rated and insured pilot. I would think barring any extraordinary circumstances that would not happen. The feds would go after the properly rated pilot over the student pilot.
 
Jaybird180 said:
There is only one scenario where a student is PIC and that is when the student is the sole occupant of the aircraft and said student is properly endorsed for solo flight, along the route of flight specified (or airspace as applicable and endorsed) with proper documentation in possession of the student. I think that is the language you're looking for.

However, there is nothing that precludes a student from renting an aircraft then changing his mind about flying and allowing a qualified PPL (with rental privileges) to board the aircraft and act as PIC, while the student acts as passenger. This might be disallowed by the FBO, but no regulation would be broken. If the flight resulted in a fatality, absent the "fly on the wall" revealing this change in responsibility the FAA/NTSB conclusion would be an unauthorized flight by a student pilot.
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Wrong. There is more than one scenario where the student is PIC - and it involves a passenger. Think about it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Because as I read the paragraph, you make it sound like the FAA will go after the student pilot rather than the properly rated and insured pilot. I would think barring any extraordinary circumstances that would not happen. The feds would go after the properly rated pilot over the student pilot.
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Yeah, not even a question.
 
EdFred said:
Wrong. There is more than one scenario where the student is PIC - and it involves a passenger. Think about it.
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You're right....the only other situation is

DESIGNATED Pilot Examiner

Designated by whom? The FAA Administrator.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Because as I read the paragraph, you make it sound like the FAA will go after the student pilot rather than the properly rated and insured pilot. I would think barring any extraordinary circumstances that would not happen. The feds would go after the properly rated pilot over the student pilot.
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Probably right about what is likely. However a student does possess a certificate and is responsible for acting according to the limitations and privileges of the certificate held.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Probably right about what is likely. However a student does possess a certificate and is responsible for acting according to the limitations and privileges of the certificate held.
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Nope. The student possesses a license. :) What certificate action could the FAA take, when there is no certificate.

Troy Matin and Hayden Whatshisface come to mind.
 
SkyHog said:
Hood time.
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if you mean during the checkride, I think that's correct because the DPE is then a required crewmember not a passenger. Otherwise, the only time a student pilot can be under the hood is with a licensed pilot or a CFI, and in either case he's not PIC.

I was thinking that another case might be when the aircraft type requires more than one crewmember, but 61.89(a)(8)(b) seems to rule that out.

I don't think a dead CFI would be considered a passenger...
 
EdFred said:
Nope. The student possesses a license. :) What certificate action could the FAA take, when there is no certificate.

Troy Matin and Hayden Whatshisface come to mind.
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The Smoketown clowns? I thought they were certificated pilots...
 
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