Flying with a new Instructor - Sight Unseen

[Jaybird180]

When I started my training in 2009, I'd been to the school times and met with the Chief Flight Instructor several times before making my decision. The CFIs I flew with were subsequently not of my choosing; it didn't matter to me at that point.

Now that I know a little bit more, I'm more careful with whom I get in an airplane and I wonder if I've become too cynical with respect to Instructors.

Here's rundown of characteristics that have formed my opinions, that I've personally experienced:
Instructor charged for time without giving instruction
Instructor too meek to disagree with me when probably necessary
Instructor not following required syllabus
Instructor showing clear bias against technology in the face of written FAA guidance
Instructor lacking competence to pass a flying job interview
Instructor showing off with maneuvers
Instructor willing to fly questionable airplanes, yet complaining about cheap boss unwilling to 'fix the crap'
Instructor willing to give airplane keys to anyone who holds a certificate, even with 0 time in type
Instructor providing late intervention to student mistakes
Instructor having questionable paperwork
*Note: One of the CFII's in the list above, I was willing to trust enough to take me into IMC with me at the controls as PF; sadly, I do not trust his instruction enough to teach me instrument flying.
**Note: I've flown with most of the instructors on the list, some once and never again, some never after getting more information
OTOH
I've had the benefit of flying with a lot of instructors and as I learn more, my discernment improves to take the best lessons from each.

Consequently, my list is relatively short now. There is at the moment only one instructor that I've never flown with that I do trust, but time and opportunity has not been favorable for flying together.

Why it matters
An acquaintance got a new airplane and hired a CFII to ferry it back. Somehow my name entered into the discussion and it was offered for me to fly with the CFII and receive instrument instruction during the flight. I'm dubious about the decision for 3 main reasons:
1- The money discussion is questionable (not going to get into it here)
2- I don't know this CFI, never met him
2b- I am thinking about Law of Primacy with respect to my instrument training. I don't want to learn bad habits and ideas.
3- The CFII is traditionally considered to be PIC, what if we have different ideas about things like fuel endurance? Do I just say "pull over man, I'll get out and walk"?

The trip is (considering the distance) likely to net some weather experience, something that I welcome. I would be taking an unknown risk by flying with someone that I don't even know in this unfamiliar situation.

As I type this out, I lean toward a no-go. I'd like to hear some other opinons on this before making a decision.

 

[John221us]

I would think you could get an idea about what type of pilot he is by asking around, but if you have any doubts, no go is the safest route.

 

[denverpilot]

There's an instructor around here who everyone says is great, who's had a 44709 ride for low Private Pilot pass rates -- amongst other things.

That information is not really public and only a few people know. Which isn't right, IMO.

I wouldn't hire him to teach my dog to sit.

His reputation doesn't proceed him unless you ask a lot of people.

 

[wabower]

I'm guessing the number of doofus -II's is somewhat less than the others, and would probably take the trip. You can borrow my 6" Spyder flip-blade if you need a tie-breaker.

 

[Jaybird180]

Wayne, what are you drinking?

 

[SCCutler]

Wayne, what are you drinking?

No, he's just like that. Acquired taste...

 

[TulsaWeather]

I'm guessing the number of doofus -II's is somewhat less than the others, and would probably take the trip. You can borrow my 6" Spyder flip-blade if you need a tie-breaker.

YOUR 6" Spyder flip-blade? That's MY 6" Spyder flip-blade that you haven't returned.

 

[jesse]

Not enough information to really help you out here.

Have you talked to others that know the instructor?
Does he seem to produce good safe students?
What type airplane?
Is the instructor competent instructing in that airplane?
Does the instructor WANT to instruct you or does he just want to fly it and now you're ruining his fun? Lots of things to consider...

Also keep in mind that sometimes crossing the country isn't as great of a training opportunity as it may seem. It's quite possible that you could encounter something that you're not that comfortable with but the instructor wants to do in order to complete the mission. The question then comes up -- is the mission to get the airplane from A to B in the most efficient manner possible -- or is the mission to provide you with the best instruction that can be provided? Different missions will produce different decisions.

All in all I consider myself a fairly conservative pilot but I do fly a LOT more then the average GA pilot so what I consider to be conservative might not be to whom I'm instructing. Some of them trust me and as a result expand their envelope. Others do not and there isn't much I can do except respect their comfort level.

It's a lot easier for me to instruct my primary students then it is someone with a few hundred hours that just met me. One trusts me - the other automatically thinks I'm an idiot.

You do need to trust the guy.

You could always just fire the bum and I can help you out. (Joking, but only a little).

At the end of the day only certain instructors will click with certain students.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Here's rundown of characteristics that have formed my opinions, that I've personally experienced:
Instructor charged for time without giving instruction

Yea, thats not cool at all

Instructor too meek to disagree with me when probably necessary

Not good ether

Instructor not following required syllabus

Hmm, sometimes students cant be crammed into a cookie cutter syllabus, sometimes you cant move a student on to the next task because they are having a hard time catching on, many factors on that one.

Instructor showing clear bias against technology in the face of written FAA guidance

You're wrong on this one, that's called GOOD instruction, learning the BASICS is what you are paying for.

This is like having a kid that JUST learned how to multiply, then giving him a calculator, saying use all the tools at your disposal, sounds chitty to me

Instructor lacking competence to pass a flying job interview

Huh? how would you even know that?

Instructor showing off with maneuvers

Nope, thats not good

Instructor willing to fly questionable airplanes, yet complaining about cheap boss unwilling to 'fix the crap'

Define questionable, a good instructor will know the difference between a safe but annoying mx issue and a airworthy issue.

However complaining about his company is just bad tact IMO

Instructor willing to give airplane keys to anyone who holds a certificate, even with 0 time in type

Not good

Instructor providing late intervention to student mistakes

Depends on how late, letting a student make mistakes and having the SKILL as a CFI to let them take the plane to the edge before intervention is applied is what a GOOD CFI does.

Instructor having questionable paperwork

If you are talking endorsements, if so that's not good

....
1- The money discussion is questionable (not going to get into it here)
2- I don't know this CFI, never met him
2b- I am thinking about Law of Primacy with respect to my instrument training. I don't want to learn bad habits and ideas.
3- The CFII is traditionally considered to be PIC, what if we have different ideas about things like fuel endurance? Do I just say "pull over man, I'll get out and walk"?

The trip is (considering the distance) likely to net some weather experience, something that I welcome. I would be taking an unknown risk by flying with someone that I don't even know in this unfamiliar situation.

As I type this out, I lean toward a no-go. I'd like to hear some other opinons on this before making a decision.

Well if you are scared, dont go.

The CFI is PIC, if you go IMC he is PIC period.

Your opinions on the flight are that of a student or pax.

If I brought a student for a ferry flight and they started questioning my planning and trying to act like a wanabe PIC, I would drop their ass off at my next fuel stop. There is only room for ONE CFI/PIC on the plane and in this case it aint you bud, if you cant handle that dont go.

Ask for some references, talk to this guy about his past flights and feel it out for yourself!

 

[Jaybird180]

Hmm, sometimes students cant be crammed into a cookie cutter syllabus, sometimes you cant move a student on to the next task because they are having a hard time catching on, many factors on that one.

I was a 141 student at the time and didn't understand that he was REQUIRED to cover things in sequence. He refused.

You're wrong on this one, that's called GOOD instruction, learning the BASICS is what you are paying for.

This is like having a kid that JUST learned how to multiply, then giving him a calculator, saying use all the tools at your disposal, sounds chitty to me

Your join date is too new, unless you lurked you wouldn't know: I was doing a TAA transition, yet CFI argued with me about paper vs EFB chart legality for Part 91Ops

Huh? how would you even know that?

He told me he flunked the job interview.

Define questionable, a good instructor will know the difference between a safe but annoying mx issue and a airworthy issue.

However complaining about his company is just bad tact IMO

How about night flying on an airplane with known non-working lights because the boss said 'they were working during preflight (wink, wink)' I didn't give another dime to this organization after hearing of this, yet the complainer continued to fly.

 

[Jaybird180]

Also keep in mind that sometimes crossing the country isn't as great of a training opportunity as it may seem. It's quite possible that you could encounter something that you're not that comfortable with but the instructor wants to do in order to complete the mission. The question then comes up -- is the mission to get the airplane from A to B in the most efficient manner possible -- or is the mission to provide you with the best instruction that can be provided? Different missions will produce different decisions.

All in all I consider myself a fairly conservative pilot but I do fly a LOT more then the average GA pilot so what I consider to be conservative might not be to whom I'm instructing. Some of them trust me and as a result expand their envelope. Others do not and there isn't much I can do except respect their comfort level.

It's a lot easier for me to instruct my primary students then it is someone with a few hundred hours that just met me. One trusts me - the other automatically thinks I'm an idiot.

You do need to trust the guy.

You could always just fire the bum and I can help you out. (Joking, but only a little).

At the end of the day only certain instructors will click with certain students.

Thank you Jesse. I think the focus will be on the ferry, not instruction. I'm not a commercial pilot so I do this for hobby. He needs it to get PAID.

Understood on the trust with primary vs couple hundred hour students. If the opportunity arose, I may fly again with the CFI that soloed me, then discuss the integrity issues (which could just be a lack of understanding of the manual on his part - I sought clarification of that section and his interpretation differed from his seniors, but he was gone by then - so he may not be a crook, a discussion will determine).

 

[airdale]

I think you are doing an excellent job of examining the trees, but you are missing the forest.

IIRC it is possible to get CFI and CFII certificates having landed at only three airports and without ever flying in a cloud. Said anther way, these ratings are needed by your instructor but are not very useful to you in evaluating instructors.

Start at the top: How much real-world flying experience does the instructor have? (Not "dual given" -- Long distance cross country, freight dog, etc.) How recent it is and what kind of airplanes was he/she flying? For instrument instruction you do not want someone who is 5 pages ahead of you in the book and whose only IFR experience is training time. I would look for 1000+ hours, not including dual-given and not including the bogus right-seat PIC time that some schools permit their customers to log.

Then have lunch with the guy/gal. You buy; it is cheap insurance. How do you hit it off? Have him tell you about his life, his background, his flying experience. Tell him about yours. What topics interest you? What interests him/her? For example, I have one CFII friend who has zero interest in why the various spots and dots appear on an approach plate. His interest is in flying the approach perfectly as depicted. I have another CFII friend who, like me, wants to analyze the plate, guess at the TERPS requirements, etc. in order to better understand what is happening. Which type of person are you? For an extreme case, take a look at one of John Eckelbar's books. The guy is amazing but I am not sure I could take instruction from him!

Finally, check references from people who have gotten their instrument ratings with the instructor.

The point here is that you should look for a grizzled veteran who you would like to have as a friend for life.

If, after your initial screening, life with the instructor is not working out, start over. You are the customer. Don't buy anything you don't like.

Re the ferry flight, IMHO a long ferry is not the time to train. Sure you can do straight-and-level under the hood and maybe an approach or two, but get-there-itis is going to push you away from things that slow the trip down. I think the proposed trip is more about your contributing some money to the flight cost than it is about learning anything. But, if you're interested, the check the instructor's background and have lunch with him just as described above. That will give you answers to the legitimate questions in your original post. Then, if you're not confident that it will be enjoyable and worthwhile, don't go.

... what if we have different ideas about things like fuel endurance?

My rule, which I explain to Pax, is that anyone in the airplane can say "We're not going." for any reason. No blame, no shame. I won't accept anything less when I am flying as Pax.

 

[dell30rb]

I'll go in your place!

I'm sure it will be fine. Think you are over analyzing this a bit. Unless I saw some kind of smoking gun I'd go. Sounds like a good experience for you

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I think that there have been two instructors that I have flown with that I actually met before I got into the cockpit. One was a friend of the old man and the other was my brother.

The las two flight reviews were also in aircraft that I had never seen before the pre-flight.

 

[Jaybird180]

I'll go in your place!

I'm sure it will be fine. Think you are over analyzing this a bit. Unless I saw some kind of smoking gun I'd go. Sounds like a good experience for you

If I could arrange it, when could you get here?

 

[Everskyward]

He told me he flunked the job interview.

Some job openings can be pretty competitive. Not everyone will hire you just because you are breathing.

 

[flyingmoose]

Yea I think you should go also. SOunds like a good experience to get under your belt. If you really don't feel comfortable then don't go, but I think you will learn a lot from the trip. Unless you never fly with anyone else that you don't know then its impossible to go have lunch and get to know everyone first before you fly with them.
Sounds like a good crew resource managment excersise. If you have legitimate concerns on the flight you will find a way to express your self and talk through them. Ask questions, be informed about what is going on. Try to be involved in every aspect of the flight that way you have a say.

 

[DogDaddy]

The main purpose of the flight is to ferry the plane; what you feel comfortable or uncomfortable with is not as important as getting the plane from point A to point B.
My advice is to go for it. It will be a real learning experience, a real adventure. Especially if you're pushed outside of your comfort zone. It'll make you stonger and more adaptable. Think about how you will feel after the flight has been completed

 

[DogDaddy]

But keep in mind that once you agree to it, you're in it for the duration and you'll just have to endure. If he does things you don't like (perhaps flying in certain weather conditions) view it as a opportunity to broaden the scope of your own experence. Unless this guy is a reckless daredevil with a death wish, let him take you beyond your current comfort level.

 

[nosehair]

2b- I am thinking about Law of Primacy with respect to my instrument training. I don't want to learn bad habits and ideas.

The Law of Primacy works when you think what you see or experience is the Truth- or the way it is supposed to be. Like when you have no other conflicting input. When you are first told how to make flight control inputs, etc.
If you were approaching this flight as a model instruction flight, you could be subject to primacy, thinking this pilot is doing everything right by the book.

You already said you have flown with many instructors and with many complaints of them, but then you said "OTOH", you have learned some from each.

So, by now, you should know, and especially on this trip, to take everything with a grain of salt, and take all of the experience as instruction. Maybe not instruction "towards a rating", but instruction, nevertheless.

 

[sdpilot]

Why not just go and be prepared at anytime to abort and buy a plane ticket home if it doesn't work out? I don't see a lot of risk in going. Maybe fly w the other person once before if possible.

Most pilots I know will change a flight plan or fly to whatever level makes their passengers comfortable as long as they know what that is. My suggestion is voice your concerns lay some ground rules and be prepared to buy a ticket home if for some reason it doesn't work out.

Sent from my Nexus 7

 

[Z06_Mir]

Some of my best adventures have been pilots I hadn't flown with before, to places I hadn't flown before.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

When I started my training in 2009, I'd been to the school times and met with the Chief Flight Instructor several times before making my decision. The CFIs I flew with were subsequently not of my choosing; it didn't matter to me at that point.

Now that I know a little bit more, I'm more careful with whom I get in an airplane and I wonder if I've become too cynical with respect to Instructors.

Here's rundown of characteristics that have formed my opinions, that I've personally experienced:
Instructor charged for time without giving instruction
Instructor too meek to disagree with me when probably necessary
Instructor not following required syllabus
Instructor showing clear bias against technology in the face of written FAA guidance
Instructor lacking competence to pass a flying job interview
Instructor showing off with maneuvers
Instructor willing to fly questionable airplanes, yet complaining about cheap boss unwilling to 'fix the crap'
Instructor willing to give airplane keys to anyone who holds a certificate, even with 0 time in type
Instructor providing late intervention to student mistakes
Instructor having questionable paperwork
*Note: One of the CFII's in the list above, I was willing to trust enough to take me into IMC with me at the controls as PF; sadly, I do not trust his instruction enough to teach me instrument flying.
**Note: I've flown with most of the instructors on the list, some once and never again, some never after getting more information
OTOH
I've had the benefit of flying with a lot of instructors and as I learn more, my discernment improves to take the best lessons from each.

Consequently, my list is relatively short now. There is at the moment only one instructor that I've never flown with that I do trust, but time and opportunity has not been favorable for flying together.

Why it matters
An acquaintance got a new airplane and hired a CFII to ferry it back. Somehow my name entered into the discussion and it was offered for me to fly with the CFII and receive instrument instruction during the flight. I'm dubious about the decision for 3 main reasons:
1- The money discussion is questionable (not going to get into it here)
2- I don't know this CFI, never met him
2b- I am thinking about Law of Primacy with respect to my instrument training. I don't want to learn bad habits and ideas.
3- The CFII is traditionally considered to be PIC, what if we have different ideas about things like fuel endurance? Do I just say "pull over man, I'll get out and walk"?

The trip is (considering the distance) likely to net some weather experience, something that I welcome. I would be taking an unknown risk by flying with someone that I don't even know in this unfamiliar situation.

As I type this out, I lean toward a no-go. I'd like to hear some other opinons on this before making a decision.

Reading your concerns and this criticism of all those CFI's I don't know if you are training at the worlds worst flight school or what?

 

[Jaybird180]

I've had a mixture of experinces, this was just an enumeration of the bad stuff. Not all of this was in training. I continued to see CFIs after I got my cert and saw a few during training (at CFI or school request or requirement).

Nothing is perfect, but overall I believe I had good quality of instruction, but looking back it wasn't roses. I just didn't know better LoL. PoA jaded me some too LoL

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Oh, well as an experienced pilot you will see some dufus cfi's. Remember that while you might have gone out and expanded your horizons flying the typical new cfi at a flight school is still a babe in the woods.

It takes narly 250 hrs or so to become a cfi for a goal oriented career pilot. How far has that guy actually ever flown from the home base? Still they are pretty good at taking off and landing Cherokee's.

Within 90 days of my ppl I had flown solo to both coasts and visited all the southern states in the usa.

If you are a renter you are limited to choice of the approved cfi list. When you are an owner just find yourself a career cfi or at least someone with at least 1000's experience. But within any population there will be a range of great to barely acceptable.

 

[j1b3h0]

Jay-

It's good that you've gained enough experience to have developed some opinions about instructors and how they relate to you. But there is no instructor who is a paragon of virtue to all students. Different personatities, methods and style of teaching and the type of student all play in to the relationship. Yet, you readily admit you learned something even from the 'bad' ones, so lower the bar a little bit - at least for an instructor you're not hiring for a rating. Am I to understand you'll be paying for dual intruction for the duration of the ferry flight?

 

[Jaybird180]

Jay-

It's good that you've gained enough experience to have developed some opinions about instructors and how they relate to you. But there is no instructor who is a paragon of virtue to all students. Different personatities, methods and style of teaching and the type of student all play in to the relationship. Yet, you readily admit you learned something even from the 'bad' ones, so lower the bar a little bit - at least for an instructor you're not hiring for a rating. Am I to understand you'll be paying for dual intruction for the duration of the ferry flight?

The items listed are the things IMO no person should do, they should know better. It's good airmanship, instruction, integrity and manners. I expect those 4 things from a CFI.

The ferry flight.....life doesn't allow me to do the ferry flight, but I think the financial agreement was conjured to stay on the barely legal side of the regs while lowering the total cost for the owner. I wasn't thrilled about that part and the Mrs wasn't either, but I like to stay within the rules, so I've begun to embrace that part.

Since initial offering, the CFI has been swapped out for someone that I would fly with. I know him and have flown with him and we know something about each others flight characteristics and we blend fairly well. If the timing works out then I may reconsider, but for now I'm not pursing the flight.