Flying West out of Denver in a single

[Martymccasland]

In the last 2 years, I've read book after book on Mountain flying. At one point, I was getting confidence to fly to Eagle, Colorado, in our non-turbo Bonanza and get closer to the slopes. I realized we'd be much more at the mercy of weather as both wind and clouds/icing would ground us up at those altitudes vs. landing Denver -- as IFR (even below freezing) would be hard as the ORCAs and MEAs are so high - but still thought that just be flexible with arrival/departure and we'd be fine.

Then, this past week, we fly to Denver and drive up to the slopes -- via I-70. I'd had read a few places, "just follow I-70" out... After seeing it first-hand, it struck me as way too much risk in a single non-turbo. I-70 had so many power lines draped in so many places. Then, to my eye, about the only place to land is the Interstate itself. On either side, it looked very treacherous with lots of rocks/boulders sprinkled everywhere. On top of that, I-70 was pretty much bumper to bumper and not moving very fast on the both days we saw it -- which pretty much removes it as a landing option.

On the sectional, it didn't look overly bad, but in person it frankly scared the hell out of me. The only other option I could see is heading up near Boulder, come over towards Granby, then follow it down to Eagle -- but still be completely prepared to be there much longer than planned until the wind/ice/clouds clear.

Any feedback on the above from you guys that live out there and do it? Am I overly concerned or are there relatively safe routes into the Eagle area that one could do in a single engine plane?

 

[denverpilot]

I-70 is not a good route for a single. Where did you hear that? Not many Colorado pilots nor instructors would give that as their first choice, westbound.

 

[Skylane81E]

Big problem with taking 70 west out of Denver is the fact that it isn't polite to try and fly through the Eisenhower tunnel forcing you to fly over Loveland pass. There are many better options depending on exactly where you are going, what you want to see and what you are flying.

 

[BobThePilot]

I recommend "Mountain Flying Bible" by Sparky Imeson. Don't be put off by the fact that he died flying in the mountains (with an unfortunate encounter with a power line). His book will give you some pointers that may be useful.

Good luck.

 

[Martymccasland]

I-70 is not a good route for a single. Where did you hear that? Not many Colorado pilots nor instructors would give that as their first choice, westbound.

Can't remember exactly / probably just me remembering wrongly / but could have sworn reading just follow the interstate and don't be caught off guard by the tunnels.

If one was going to head to Eagle from Denver, how would you do it in a Bonanza?

 

[Martymccasland]

I recommend "Mountain Flying Bible" by Sparky Imeson. Don't be put off by the fact that he died flying in the mountains (with an unfortunate encounter with a power line). His book will give you some pointers that may be useful.

Good luck.

'Have read it cover to cover 3-4 times... His particular demise really gave me pause.

 

[Skylane81E]

More to the point asked, the GNB area is quite flyable once you get there and following the Colorado from there to eagle is likely as good as any other option. I don't recall the route I used when last there so I'll defer to a local.

 

[AggieMike88]

Murphey told me about a Mountain Flying Class that is held during the summer that might be of interest to many of the flat landers.

 

[docmirror]

At some point in my flying I decided that there just aren't any good ways to get west from Denver and live with that. In a non-turbo HP/complex single, picking the best of a bad lot is like Russian roulette with 2 in the chambers. I've gone over several of the passes to the south, both east and west, on perfectly clear days, with low winds and I still didn't much like it.

The risks involved were beyond what I was comfy with to be at the mercy of so much bad terrain in all directions. I might fly over the Rockies again but it'll be my typical conditions of cool weather, no wind, CAVU, and I'll stop before crossing and double check everything on board.

YMMV.

 

[Martymccasland]

At some point in my flying I decided that there just aren't any good ways to get west from Denver and live with that. In a non-turbo HP/complex single, picking the best of a bad lot is like Russian roulette with 2 in the chambers. I've gone over several of the passes to the south, both east and west, on perfectly clear days, with low winds and I still didn't much like it.

The risks involved were beyond what I was comfy with to be at the mercy of so much bad terrain in all directions. I might fly over the Rockies again but it'll be my typical conditions of cool weather, no wind, CAVU, and I'll stop before crossing and double check everything on board.

YMMV.

My gut tells me to take the same approach -- just land Denver and drive -- even if it is calm, cool, and clear... Seeing that stuff first-hand with just so few outs, doesn't look like anything to try with less than 2 turbo engines.

 

[murphey]

I-70 is not a good route for a single. Where did you hear that? Not many Colorado pilots nor instructors would give that as their first choice, westbound.

Don't know anyone out here that would ever suggest I70! No outs anywhere.

Denver to the Western Slope is a common topic around here, search POA for the threads.

As for the route to Eagle, the one we teach inthe Colorado Mtn course is Boulder over Rollins/Corona Pass to Granby to RLG (kremmling) then the Eagle.

There's also the issuenof winds on the peaks. Take a look at the AWOS at Copper Mountain sometime during the winter season.

During ski season, Eagle and Aspen use a reservation system for arrivals. And parking the airplane is seriously frowned upon....there's just no room. Plus the FAF at Aspen is 14K.

 

[murphey]

My gut tells me to take the same approach -- just land Denver and drive -- even if it is calm, cool, and clear... Seeing that stuff first-hand with just so few outs, doesn't look like anything to try with less than 2 turbo engines.

the only single engine airplane I'd ever fly following I70 is a Pilatus or F16.

 

[Everskyward]

I'll let other people talk about the routing, but one thing you might consider about going into Eagle (and Aspen) for skiing is that it would be a good idea to avoid peak travel times around the holidays because it can be very busy.

 

[BobThePilot]

Don't know anyone out here that would ever suggest I70! No outs anywhere.

Denver to the Western Slope is a common topic around here, search POA for the threads.

As for the route to Eagle, the one we teach inthe Colorado Mtn course is Boulder over Rollins/Corona Pass to Granby then the Eagle. But, during ski season, Eagle and Aspen use a reservation system for arrivals. And parking the airplane is seriously frowned upon....there's just no room. Plus the FAF at Aspen is 14K.

So where is a good place to park the plane if heading to Aspen? Rifle?

 

[Alexb2000]

I have a house in Taos. I fly around Northern NM and Southern Colorado all the time. You listed a lot of the things that typically make people nervous. Those really don't bother me much at all just because there are a lot of much more probable issues to deal with.

For example, if I am forced to go to another airport (weather, runway closure, contaminated runway, etc.) that is about 60 miles. Most everyone I discuss fuel planning with doesn't really consider the lack of alternates, but many people flying around the mountains, especially coming from some distant place will face this. People used to flying on the flat lands, check weather notams and fly. In the mountains especially if there has been weather (snow, ice, etc) recently I call the airport and ask about conditions before launching, because unplowed runways don't get a NOTAM very often.

The next thing is a lot of the drama associated with mountain flying happens at low altitude. Many people don't like to fly above 12.5 for some odd reason. IMO altitude is your friend. Even normally aspirated take it up to 16ish and reduce the drama and need for "Mountain Flying" skills. Which brings up another point, NEVER fly without O2 available. I know several people that were killed or nearly so because they didn't have O2 available.

I could go on, but I believe you are focused on the wrong thing (engine outs). There are a lot of other much more relevant things to deal with. No offense intended.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If the weather is good and no indications of strong winds or mountain wave activity, I'd climb to 13.5 long enough to clear the Rollins Pass and then drop back down heading toward RLG.

 

[docmirror]

I live SW of the Denver area, and when I fly up there, if I want to get close I take the route up Wet Mtn valley. It starts at 4V1 Spanish peaks, then fly about 300 just to the east of Greenhorn mtn for some ridge lift, then over Silver West, Salida, and land at Buena Vista. From there you can get to Breck pretty easy, Copper is a bit harder but doable, and Vail/BC is a pain to get to but still better than anything on I-70. The good part is that the roads are never busy, the bad part is that they are not interstate. Only one time have I ever seen Hoosier pass closed in my 20 years of driving hwy 9. I'm guessing it's been closed more than that in 20 years, but only once for me. And, if hwy 9 is impassible, it's a good bet that I-70 is either shut down too, or it would take +6 hours to get back to the city.

 

[murphey]

I live the SW of the Denver area, and when I fly up there, if I want to get close I take the route up Wet Mtn valley. It starts at 4V1 Spanish peaks, then fly about 300 just to the east of Greenhorn mtn for some ridge lift, then over Silver West, Salida, and land at Buena Vista. From there you can get to Breck pretty easy, Copper is a bit harder but doable, and Vail/BC is a pain to get to but still better than anything on I-70. The good part is that the roads are never busy, the bad part is that they are not interstate. Only one time have I ever seen Hoosier pass closed in my 20 years of driving hwy 9. I'm guessing it's been closed more than that in 20 years, but only once for me. And, if hwy 9 is impassible, it's a good bet that I-70 is either shut down too, or it would take +6 hours to get back to the city.

But the Breck airport closed years ago, and no airport near Copper other than Eagle. Ah wait....land at Buena Vista then drive ... Got it. But why not land at Leadville instead of Buempna Vista? If you've made it to BV, Leadville's really close.

 

[docmirror]

But the Breck airport closed years ago, and no airport near Copper other than Eagle. Ah wait....land at Buena Vista then drive ... Got it. But why not land at Leadville instead of Buempna Vista? If you've made it to BV, Leadville's really close.

Why not? Go ahead, land at LXV. The route I described leaves a few outs for terrain, even when you get to the Arkansas river valley all the way to BV. But about 5 miles north of BV the terrain gets serious bad all the way to LXV. Also, you go up 2000' in elevation between the two and a better chance of getting snowed in. The Salida to BV section almost never has much snow, but the snow levels around LXV are significantly greater.

Oh, and one more time - YMMV.

 

[Everskyward]

During ski season, Eagle and Aspen use a reservation system for arrivals. And parking the airplane is seriously frowned upon....there's just no room. Plus the FAF at Aspen is 14K.

No more reservations this year at the ski area airports although they will hold you for release at the departure airport. They also highly frown upon trying to cut into the line VFR.

 

[TCABM]

Any feedback on the above from you guys that live out there and do it? Am I overly concerned or are there relatively safe routes into the Eagle area that one could do in a single engine plane?

Here's the real question: is the time gained worth the risk on any given flight. I'm about 5 mins from 00V; we ski about every weekend and sometimes every Wed as we'll. I have never stopped and thought "Gee, from 00V to the resort is about 2hrs less each way than driving it. I guess I'll fly up today."

Call me cautious, but at about 2400ish hrs, the conditions enroute are far too unpredictable and/or fast changing for me to attempt that flight in anything that isn't a turbine. I'd prefer a C90 as min eqpt for that trip.

As someone else said, it's not the eng failure that bothers me. It's everything else that happens without having 5k+ ft between me and the ground as well as the systems to get me out instead of being forced to put in on the ground somewhere.

I'm aware there are plenty of bush planes that are sufficient for the msn on a VFR day. We're talking about winter ops with your family on board. That changes the equation significantly for me.

Just my thoughts and anyone else's opinion is just as valid for them as mine is for me.

TC


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[docmirror]

I think what sets the plan off is when the 2 hour drive from Copper to Denver turns into one of the epic 6 hour drives.

It's one of the main reasons when I bought my place in CO I'm not on the I-70 corridor. I would get anxiety about the drive home when I was out trying to have a good time on the slopes, and it began to ruin the day for me. I was constantly wondering 'what time should we leave?' Or, 'will today be the day that we don't get home until midnight?' Meh - not interested, and not interested in flying into Eagle in my single non-turbo either.

 

[Clark1961]

The only other option I could see is heading up near Boulder, come over towards Granby, then follow it down to Eagle -- but still be completely prepared to be there much longer than planned until the wind/ice/clouds clear.

Any feedback on the above from you guys that live out there and do it? Am I overly concerned or are there relatively safe routes into the Eagle area that one could do in a single engine plane?

You are not overly concerned. The number of aircraft scattered about the mountains west of Denver is testament to that.

The route you describe from Denver to Granby is over Corona pass. Following the Colorado River isn't a bad route to get close to Eagle.

Low ceilings will close Corona pass. When that happens, the "out" is to head north towards Laramie and hang a right when you get to the state line. There is a large powerline that runs along the state line so that's the navigation. That area is the lowest terrain along the north Colorado Front Range. If turning right at the powerline doesn't work out then landing at Granby, Walden, or Laramie is the "final" out. Edit: okay, the real "final" out is an off-airport landing in the valley. Probably survivable in one of the hay fields.

Of course after weather considerations the next problem, as you discovered at APA, is altitude and aircraft performance. EGE is in a hole and the only real out other than back to the airport is to follow I-70 down hill. Engine or performance problems won't be fun in that area.

I just spent a day and a half in Riverton, WY when a front developed in the area and stalled over the airport. The front development was forecast and I planned for it. Stalling out wasn't forecast and there was nothing I could do with 100 to 200' ceilings and fzfg. The FBO was nice about it and gave what help they could but I did get to pay for an extra night in the hangar and at the hotel. Mountain weather will force delays and ya gotta be able to say we're staying another night.

 

[TCABM]

I think what sets the plan off is when the 2 hour drive from Copper to Denver turns into one of the epic 6 hour drives.

Doc,

I realize that. We go prepared to stay the night in Dillon/Frisco if I70 is closed. On NYE, we did a day trip and took 24 back due to tunnel metering. That only added 30 mins door to door time even with Breck's stop and stop traffic as the slopes closed.

If I don't think it's reasonable to accept on overnight up there, I don't go.

TC.


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[docmirror]

Doc,

I realize that. We go prepared to stay the night in Dillon/Frisco if I70 is closed. On NYE, we did a day trip and took 24 back due to tunnel metering. That only added 30 mins door to door time even with Breck's stop and stop traffic as the slopes closed.

If I don't think it's reasonable to accept on overnight up there, I don't go.

TC.


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Not to play devil's advocate too much but once you are past exit 205, you're committed for the next 35 miles. There's little to do about it. It's possible to get off at 6 and go back west, but there's not much else to do until you get to Idaho Springs. Once you're past hwy 6 at Loveland, that's it. If something happens in front of you then, there are no alternatives. That's what leads people to try finding a reason to fly into Eagle. From an aviation perspective, I've looked at this pretty carefully, and my best alternative was either Alexander at Salida or BV, and drive up 285 to 9. At least it's predictable.

 

[mcoflyer]

I had a chance to go up to LXV from APA last winter when the weather was perfect. Not a cloud in the sky, very little wind, and temperatures at APA around 30 degrees.

We went up in a Comanche 250. Took off SW to Buena Vista, crossed the ridge probably about 20-25 miles north of Pikes Peak and landed at Buena Vista for breakfast. Took off to the north and made a quick stop at LXV before heading back to APA the same way we came in.

I was with my CFI who has done this run a million times and felt ok, but I would NOT do this unless the weather was perfectly clear. The trip from Buena Vista up to LXV is fairly tricky as the valley gets pretty narrow and you've got VERY HIGH terrain on both sides.

 

[Clark1961]

The trip from Buena Vista up to LXV is fairly tricky as the valley gets pretty narrow and you've got VERY HIGH terrain on both sides.

This made me smile (in a good way). The narrow valley with terrain on both sides is actually a lot of fun once you get used to the idea of using terrain. It isn't so much fun on really windy days as you search for smoother air.

My mountain flight instructor said that he usually has trouble getting people to fly close enough to the terrain. He didn't tell me to move away and I was shooting for one wingspan away from the hillside...

 

[TCABM]

He didn't tell me to move away and I was shooting for one wingspan away from the hillside...

One wingspan away in most GA doesn't leave much room. And that's the problem with these runs in the winter in models that lack the power and systems to get out of whatever beats you to the destination. Not to mention the experience of flying in those conditions.




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[Immelman]

Just my opinion, but...

If you're thinking about a route's safety in regards to POWER LINES, that is a big fat red flag with respect to altitude planning.

The margin of safety afforded by clearing a high pass by 3000-4000 feet (preferably more), allowing yourself to make a 180 to extract yourself from the high terrain, is something I am comfortable with. If you're flying an altitude capable single, that can get up to 16-18K (I'm not a Bonanza expert but I'd imagine that is doable if not heavily loaded), then in my opinion you can fly most places in the rockies safely, assuming careful consideration to weather and wind.

Also emphasize the altitude capable single.. A normally aspirated PA-28 and its altitude-averse wing will not cut it.

 

[Tom-D]

There is only one rule in mountain flying.

If there is a rock in the way,,,, go around.

 

[Clark1961]

One wingspan away in most GA doesn't leave much room. And that's the problem with these runs in the winter in models that lack the power and systems to get out of whatever beats you to the destination. Not to mention the experience of flying in those conditions.

You're taking things out of context here with your quote.

 

[murphey]

So where is a good place to park the plane if heading to Aspen? Rifle?

Rifle is good but check in advance for rental cars. Be aware of the fees.

 

[Skylane81E]

This made me smile (in a good way). The narrow valley with terrain on both sides is actually a lot of fun once you get used to the idea of using terrain. It isn't so much fun on really windy days as you search for smoother air.

My mountain flight instructor said that he usually has trouble getting people to fly close enough to the terrain. He didn't tell me to move away and I was shooting for one wingspan away from the hillside...

It also isn't THAT narrow either,

I've done 360s with out anything resembling worry in the valley north of BV. Just don't fly up the middle

 

[Clark1961]

It also isn't THAT narrow either,

very true - but to a flatlander it can obviously be intimidating - no big deal we all have to learn

Under the correct conditions, valleys are a lot of fun. If the winds aren't favorable stay away or above. Don't fly up the valley unless you are already above your destination altitude or you have a viable out. Expand your envelope but don't break the rules - have an out.

 

[rbridges]

I think what sets the plan off is when the 2 hour drive from Copper to Denver turns into one of the epic 6 hour drives.

It's one of the main reasons when I bought my place in CO I'm not on the I-70 corridor. I would get anxiety about the drive home when I was out trying to have a good time on the slopes, and it began to ruin the day for me. I was constantly wondering 'what time should we leave?'

my wife says I'm the only one that thinks like that. I hate driving in bumper to bumper traffic. That being said, I'll take being stuck in traffic any day over having an issue in the sky.

 

[Martymccasland]

my wife says I'm the only one that thinks like that. I hate driving in bumper to bumper traffic. That being said, I'll take being stuck in traffic any day over having an issue in the sky.

The traffic is really the kernel behind my OP. It took us nearly 4 hours to do the 90 minute drive from Denver to Keystone. A semi *EASTBOUND* lost his brakes and flipped over at Idaho Springs. It of course stopped Eastbound traffic, but it also cause us, Westbound, to slow to a crawl. When we got closer, I couldn't tell why -- they simply closed the Eastbound lanes and used it to/fr for emergency vehicles. I'd guess anyone going East into Denver that day had 4,5,6+ hour drives...

Hence, I got to looking to Eagle for future trips...

 

[murphey]

Just my opinion, but...

If you're thinking about a route's safety in regards to POWER LINES, that is a big fat red flag with respect to altitude planning.

The margin of safety afforded by clearing a high pass by 3000-4000 feet (preferably more), allowing yourself to make a 180 to extract yourself from the high terrain, is something I am comfortable with. If you're flying an altitude capable single, that can get up to 16-18K (I'm not a Bonanza expert but I'd imagine that is doable if not heavily loaded), then in my opinion you can fly most places in the rockies safely, assuming careful consideration to weather and wind.

Also emphasize the altitude capable single.. A normally aspirated PA-28 and its altitude-averse wing will not cut it.

Don't tell my little PA28/180 - it goes over the passes to BV and LXV and doesn't know it shouldn't. LaVeta Pass - usually at 12.5 (3K above the pass but the peaks are well above me). The hogback from Denver to the valley (Salida, BV, LXV) at 12.5 (coming home, 11.5). On the other hand, I've been flying out here for over 15 years, know the terrain & weather patterns and try to avoid doing something stupid. Corona/Rollins Pass - 14.5, 15.5 if needed.

Would I ever fly direct to Vail or Aspen? Never. Which is why it's faster for me to drive (2 hrs) to Vail than the direct route of 1 hr (at 14.5 with no margin for error) or the route I've taken (described by Clark - up to the state line, hang a left) of 2.5 hrs at 10.5 most of the way, with a short hop up to 12.5.

 

[murphey]

I think what sets the plan off is when the 2 hour drive from Copper to Denver turns into one of the epic 6 hour drives.

6 hrs? I've slept on the floor of the Holiday Inn when they closed the tunnel. Not fun in ski pants. Loveland Ski - east side of the tunnel and one of the favorites of the locals. Already 1-2 hr head start on everyone else coming home. And an extra hour of sleep in the morning. 75 min from my front door to being in the lift line.

It's one of the main reasons when I bought my place in CO I'm not on the I-70 corridor. I would get anxiety about the drive home when I was out trying to have a good time on the slopes, and it began to ruin the day for me. I was constantly wondering 'what time should we leave?' Or, 'will today be the day that we don't get home until midnight?' Meh - not interested, and not interested in flying into Eagle in my single non-turbo either.

 

[murphey]

Doc,

I realize that. We go prepared to stay the night in Dillon/Frisco if I70 is closed. On NYE, we did a day trip and took 24 back due to tunnel metering. That only added 30 mins door to door time even with Breck's stop and stop traffic as the slopes closed.

If I don't think it's reasonable to accept on overnight up there, I don't go.

Sure, plan to stay overnight. Where? High season, no hotel rooms unless you've already booked them.

 

[docmirror]

6 hrs? I've slept on the floor of the Holiday Inn when they closed the tunnel. Not fun in ski pants. Loveland Ski - east side of the tunnel and one of the favorites of the locals. Already 1-2 hr head start on everyone else coming home. And an extra hour of sleep in the morning. 75 min from my front door to being in the lift line.

Yabut, if you go to Loveland, then you have to, er - ski at Loveland. No real skier wants that. It's like a down-market Eldora.