Flying under Mode "C" and "B" airspace.

Shepherd

Shepherd

Final Approach
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Shepherd
So there are 15 of us at breakfast, a couple of CFIs, some active pilots, and some retired armchair pilots.
I mention I'm planning on flying my plane down the NYC Exclusion and chaos ensues.
One CFI insists I can't do it because I have no transponder or ADSB.
One CFI insists I can, since I fly under the the airspace (800-900 ft).
The FAA printout says nothing about it.
Everyone else has an opinion.
Anyone have the facts?
Thanks.
 
Shepherd said:
I mention I'm planning on flying my plane down the NYC Exclusion and chaos ensues.
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Joegoersch said:
Is it legal to fly up the Hudson River, below the bravo airspace without a transponder ? I don't see anything in 14CFR93 that requires a transponder any more...
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Brad Z said:
There is no specific requirement for a transponder above and beyond what is required in § 91.215.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-93/subpart-W
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Brad Z said:
You would still be required to report your position by radio IAW 14 CFR 93.352(a).
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Not sure how you get around this
"Mode C Veil. The airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of 14 CFR Part 91 (generally primary airports within Class B airspace areas), from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, aircraft operating within this airspace must be equipped with an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting capability and operable ADS-B Out equipment."
 
Certain aircraft are allowed to operate inside the Mode C veil but outside the Class B and C airspace without having a transponder or ADSB.
 
Hang 4 said:
Not sure how you get around this
"Mode C Veil. The airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in Appendix D, Section 1 of 14 CFR Part 91 (generally primary airports within Class B airspace areas), from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, aircraft operating within this airspace must be equipped with an operable radar beacon transponder with automatic altitude reporting capability and operable ADS-B Out equipment."
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Read the paragraph on aircraft without electrical systems installed...
 
Shepherd said:
So there are 15 of us at breakfast, a couple of CFIs, some active pilots, and some retired armchair pilots.
I mention I'm planning on flying my plane down the NYC Exclusion and chaos ensues.
One CFI insists I can't do it because I have no transponder or ADSB.
One CFI insists I can, since I fly under the the airspace (800-900 ft).
The FAA printout says nothing about it.
Everyone else has an opinion.
Anyone have the facts?
Thanks.
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The facts are the regulations: 91.215 and 91.225. Flight instructors can read regulations, correct?
 
91.215(a)(b)(3) ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted -
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
=====
91.225(e) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.
The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted -
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
=====
FAA Legal Interpretation
Schober 2017
"In the notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) and final rule for ADS-B Out, the FAA did not indicate that the omission of the word "engine-driven" from § 91.225(e) was intended to mean something different from the transponder regulation."
"As such, we have concluded that the same aircraft excluded from the transponder requirement are excluded from the ADS-B Out equipage."
"The FAA may consider a technical amendment in the future to remove any confusion due to the discrepancy between the language in § 91.215(a)(5) and § 91.225(e). "
 
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Can't go through the Hudson SFRA without a radio. I suppose you could use a handheld.
 
One other point, the Hudson
Shepherd said:
One CFI insists I can, since I fly under the the airspace (800-900 ft).
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exclusion is between 1000 and 1300 feet. Below 1000 is supposed to be for the helicopters IIRC. There's an FAA course you are supposed to take as a prerequisite for flying in the exclusion. It covers the mandatory reporting points, altitudes and where to fly in each direction.
 
Hang 4 said:
One other point, the Hudson exclusion is between 1000 and 1300 feet.
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The exclusion is below 1,300 ft MSL.

Hang 4 said:
Below 1000 is supposed to be for the helicopters IIRC.
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HUDSON RIVER EXCLUSION (CTAF 123.05)
• Fly in proper altitude range
o Transient operation* [1,000 ft up to, not including, 1,300 ft MSL]
o Local operation** [Surface up to, not including, 1,000 ft MSL]
* Transient operation: Aircraft transiting the Hudson River Exclusion from end to end without intending to signicantly change heading, altitude, or airspeed.
** Local operation: Any aircraft within the Hudson River Exclusion that is conducting an operation other than overflying.

Hang 4 said:
There's an FAA course you are supposed to take as a prerequisite for flying in the exclusion.
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Refreshers are always a great idea. Quick and easy. Might help to avoid a mistake.
 
Shepherd said:
So there are 15 of us at breakfast, a couple of CFIs, some active pilots, and some retired armchair pilots.
I mention I'm planning on flying my plane down the NYC Exclusion and chaos ensues.
One CFI insists I can't do it because I have no transponder or ADSB.
One CFI insists I can, since I fly under the the airspace (800-900 ft).
The FAA printout says nothing about it.
Everyone else has an opinion.
Anyone have the facts?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the input.
Wednesday mornings is "Pastor in the Diner".
It's a free-form, run what you brung, no religion unless you ask something.
Mostly it's politics, and aviation related with the occasional stump the pastor question.
One of the guys that works in the tower stopped in the diner this morning to say "Hi."
I was kind of impressed. He quoted us chapter and verse and then said "Blessed is he that has neither electrical system, transducer nor ADSB for verily he is a child of God, and he trespasseth not ."
Which got a huge laugh.
He also told me "Don't be that guy who asks for flight following." Apparently some wiseguy in J3 was always asking for flight following.
I wouldn't think of it. Besides, I haven't flown the J3 in over a year.

I did ask "If I have to stay below 1,000 ft (transit aircraft operate 1,000 to 1,300 ft). When I get to the George Washington Bridge can I fly under it? You see, It's 604 ft tall and I'm at 900 feet indicated, I'm busting the rule about flying over stuff."
He just laughed and said the height rule only gets invoked there if we (FAA) want to screw someone over for something else.
Not the answer I was hoping for.
 
asicer said:
There's a tunnel under the arena?
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Mitchell Stadium is 375 ft above the Hudson River. The game TFR extends from the surface (375 ft) to 3,000 ft and a couple miles out over the Hudson.
So, if I fly below 375 ft can I fly under the TFR?
This question actually started a fist fight when I asked it at a flight school.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No need to get to the esoteric. I heard a CFI say it was ok to fly without a piece of required equipment because it wasn't part of a certain bad mnemonic.
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Tomato flumes?
 
One of my instructors used GOOSE A CAT.
 
I’ve had to quote these regs to some C90 folks, as I fly a couple non-electric J3s under ORD bravo often. I do carry an handheld in these however. Interestingly enough, radar doesn’t even pick be up below 700 AGL.
 
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