Flying to STL on IFR training flight

[asgcpa]

My CFII loves training students utilizing XC flights, after running through practice stuff on sims.

In mid March, were planning to go from KPWK to KPIA to KSTL then a quick hop to KSUS, where we will meet my daughter for lunch. My son is also going to fly in from KJEF to meet us. On way back it will be KSUS to Champaign via Toy into KPWK.

For those of you who fly into Lambert, and area, any suggestions? Any good restaurants at or by KSUS?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DGlaeser]

I used to be based at KSTL many many years ago (2 different flying clubs, and charter), but a LOT has changed since then. Most of it less than helpful for GA.
If you plan to stop at KSTL, I suggest you check out the FBO for costs. Signature currently shows $8.44/gal for 100LL, and may charge you a ramp fee if you don't buy gas.
Why bother going to STL at all? I'd go right to SUS. You will be talking to STL approach anyway, and it has any type of approach you'd want. You are already quite familiar with Class B ops, being based at PWK.
Back when I was there, practice approaches into KSTL were highly discouraged, and in actual IFR they wanted max speed to the marker (in a Baron). We would go to ALN and SUS for approaches.
Check ForeFlight for restaurants near SUS, that area has a fair amount. It appears that the Wildhorse Grill is on the field.

 

[timwinters]

I googled Wildhorse Grill and it doesn't appear as if it's on the field (unless there are two). The one that pops up appears to be at least a mile or two walk.

Wente's O&W Restaurant (whatever that is) is much closer, it's at the NE corner of the field. Maybe 1/2 mile walk... if that...depending on where you park.

Let me know when you're going to be there, I might fly up!

 

[asgcpa]

Why bother going to STL at all? I'd go right to SUS. You will be talking to STL approach anyway, and it has any type of approach you'd want. You are already quite familiar with Class B ops, being based at PWK.

My instructor wants me to have the experience of landing at a Bravo airport....O'Hare is not as friendly as STL. On this trip we'll be doing approaches at a Bravo, Charlie, and a few Delta fields.

 

[timwinters]

My instructor wants me to have the experience of landing at a Bravo airport.

I really don't understand this. There's really no difference between going into a class charlie or bravo except the amount of traffic..and sometimes that's not even true...which is why STL is more friendly. If you instructor had to pay for the fuel of any airliners he delays by teaching in class bravo I'm sure he'd change his mind.

I hate to be blunt but he sounds like an idiot to me.

 

[JHW]

I really don't understand this. There's really no difference between going into a class charlie or bravo except the amount of traffic..and sometimes that's not even true...which is why STL is more friendly. If you instructor had to pay for the fuel of any airliners he delays by teaching in class bravo I'm sure he'd change his mind.

I hate to be blunt but he sounds like an idiot to me.

+1
the last time I landed at lambert the conversation went like this:

tower: Lear 123 turn left next high speed
me: Lear no reversers
tower: TWA 123 heavy go around
my left seater to me: I just got back every twa ticket I've ever bought

 

[Vinny]

KSUS is in the middle of a city of never-ending strip malls and chain restaurants. Paul Manno's is nearby but it's upscale Italian, not sure if that's what you want. All the other good restaurants I know are closer in to the city, and that's a good 30 minute drive from Chesterfield.

I've flown into MCI in a 182 under VFR a couple of times. It's a bit silly that it's Bravo, but there you are. MDW is busier than MCI and STL put together I would venture.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

FWIW, when I instructed, I always flew to Ontario, CA at night with instrument pilots. I'd ask for the light show and have them turn on the full CAT III lights. This was to impress the student on how thick fog can be and to get the student to land on the TDZ lights. Most will want to land long, past the TDZ lights. It was even better if we had a night with a bit of fog. Most of the approaches would end in a touch and go (flown by me) and having the student take over when we were airborne again. It cut down on taxi time at a busy airport.

While I'm sorry that I might have delayed a jet, I felt it was worth the training. I also felt there was an intimation factor working IFR at larger airports. It's better to have instruction at these airports. That's why I'd also due an IFR departure off Torrance to the North. The student had to work with then Los Angeles Approach, now SoCal, with the departures off LAX.

I really don't understand this. There's really no difference between going into a class charlie or bravo except the amount of traffic..and sometimes that's not even true...which is why STL is more friendly. If you instructor had to pay for the fuel of any airliners he delays by teaching in class bravo I'm sure he'd change his mind.

I hate to be blunt but he sounds like an idiot to me.

 

[asgcpa]

The plan is just a touch and go at STL on the way to SUS. It was also suggested a few months back by someone in ATC who was very nice and helpful when I first flew into the St Louis area. I just didn't want to go to SUS at the time.

And, the instructor is not an idiot. Sorry Tim, while I agree with many things you post not on this one. He has a reputation for preparing his students to be the best prepared for their checkrides and beyond. Several DPEs in the area have mentioned this. He also makes learning extremely fun. All his students love his method of instruction, including me.

 

[asgcpa]

FWIW, when I instructed, I always flew to Ontario, CA at night with instrument pilots. I'd ask for the light show and have them turn on the full CAT III lights. This was to impress the student on how thick fog can be and to get the student to land on the TDZ lights. Most will want to land long, past the TDZ lights. It was even better if we had a night with a bit of fog. Most of the approaches would end in a touch and go (flown by me) and having the student take over when we were airborne again. It cut down on taxi time at a busy airport.

While I'm sorry that I might have delayed a jet, I felt it was worth the training. I also felt there was an intimation factor working IFR at larger airports. It's better to have instruction at these airports. That's why I'd also due an IFR departure off Torrance to the North. The student had to work with then Los Angeles Approach, now SoCal, with the departures off LAX.

Thanks John. I think that's part if the thinking.

 

[frfly172]

Why not just fly the approach and go missed,that keeps the traffic moving.

 

[asgcpa]

Why not just fly the approach and go missed,that keeps the traffic moving.

I'll see what he says.

 

[timwinters]

FWIW, when I instructed, I always flew to Ontario, CA at night with instrument pilots.

I don't see an issue with this at all. First, Ontario is Charlie, not Bravo, and second, I assume nighttime isn't rush hour.

I'd ask for the light show and have them turn on the full CAT III lights. This was to impress the student on how thick fog can be and to get the student to land on the TDZ lights. Most will want to land long, past the TDZ lights.

I can certainly see how landing a little long would be catastrophic in a single engine bug smasher on a 12,000' runway!

I did my instrument training with multiple instructors in multiples areas (from Springfield, MO to August, GA to Watertown, SD) and I always found the most challenging approach to be a GPS approach into a short rural airstrip with nothing but LIRL and nothing else around. Saluda County, SC (6J4) comes to mind as one of the most challenging. 3,000', LIRL, and (years ago at least) absolutely nothing else around.

Big, commercial airports are a walk in the park comparatively speaking, not that it wasn't good experience to fly into them occasionally.

And, okay, idiot was likely the wrong term for me to use in describing the CFI-I but it was expedient.

 

[timwinters]

The plan is just a touch and go at STL on the way to SUS. It was also suggested a few months back by someone in ATC who was very nice and helpful when I first flew into the St Louis area. I just didn't want to go to SUS at the time.

So, why not land at STL Downtown (CPS) instead? you still get to play in Bravo airspace, you still get another control tower experience and, if it's at night, you'll get to play with an MALSR lighting system (granted not quite as flashy as Lambert's ALSF2 lights) BUT, you won't take a chance of screwing with the big boys.**

Or, land at Springfield (SPI) on the way down. Class charlie, relatively busy, nice big airfield.

Or land at both Springfield AND Downtown!

There have been dozens of discussions regarding FLIBs using Bravo airports on this board and there will never be a consensus. But, put me squarely in the camp of---with rare exception---there is absolutely no reason for it. We have plenty of other options and landing at a bravo for training offers no advantage over landing at a charlie that I can think of.

And don't even get me started on FLIBs landing at Bravos just to "notch that one in their logbook".

BTW. if you want a real high stress challenge, go out an play at Rockford (if their controllers still have the same attitude that they did 3 to 5 years ago anyway). I used to fly through RFD's airspace twice a week and I never heard as may stressed out calls from student pilots anywhere else I ever flew. The approach controllers at RFD were brutal to students. Maybe this was worked out in advance with the instructors but I doubt it. More likely they didn't want training flights in their airspace and did everything possible to make a student's life difficult. I once heard a student in a Citation brought to tears, literally, and it was a male. That's an experience will toughen your nut!

Tim

**There may only be a slight chance of screwing with the big boys but there's still that chance.

There are exceptions of course, like nighttime at many fields being slow, at MCI which is dead almost all the time, etc. But as a general rule of thumb, I think it's a arrogant egocentric move.

But that's just me. Others disagree completely.

 

[Blackhawk]

For the life of me I can't figure out the issue some have with going to KSTL, especially if the student wishes to do this. Yes, approaches are approaches (for the most part though there are exceptions such as the approach into Martin State), and the issue is not really the approach itself. The issue is dealing with the curve balls you will get flying into a busier airports both in the air and on the ground. This is something better dealt with during training with an instructor there verses doing for the first time on your own.

If they go this will not be the first piston airplane to go into KSTL. Approach control knows how to work them into the flow with heavy traffic and this may mean doing a high speed approach- again, something best done the first time with an instructor on board.

Pilots should "train the way they will fight". Too often in training I hear of pilots and instructors taking the short cut and saying "I will cover that after the check ride" or "you don't need that for the check ride". If you will use something or do something after the check ride, why not train on it before the check ride?

So to the OP, do you see yourself flying into class B airports? Some pilots avoid them but often they can be convenient and cost effective (when I flew into KPHX several years ago I was surprised that their fuel was cheaper than at many other airports in Phoenix). If so, go for it. Will it cost more? Probably, but not as much as if you screw it up the first time by yourself.

 

[timwinters]

For the life of me I can't figure out the issue some have with going to KSTL,

That's been clearly detailed, not just STL, but class bravo in general. How much does it cost an airliner to go around? To do an additional lap in the holding pattern?

the issue is not really the approach itself. The issue is dealing with the curve balls you will get flying into a busier airports both in the air and on the ground.

And why can't the same be experienced at a class charlie? Especially if the instructor knows the controllers and has them purposely throw curves? That's what my instructor at SGF did, he knew the controller well and occasionally had them throw me curve balls at will. How is this not just as effective as anything experienced at a bravo?

Pilots should "train the way they will fight".

I don't fight in class bravos either, I've found no reason to do so. I've fought in numerous class charlies, but I've never had a reason to land at a bravo and I have over 1000 hours flying for my business and I'm confident that type of flying presented far more need/temptation to use a bravo than almost any typical "recreational" private pilot would be presented with.

The only thing I'll say in the defense of landing at a bravo is, if you know when their "push" times are, if you know when their other "busy" times are, and know when their "dead" times are, and if you ensure that you avoid all "push" and "busy" times and only land at "dead" times, then I'm more understanding.

I just still don't see a valid reason to do so though.

 

[Blackhawk]

That's been clearly detailed, not just STL, but class bravo in general. How much does it cost an airliner to go around? To do an additional lap in the holding pattern?


And why can't the same be experienced at a class charlie? Especially if the instructor knows the controllers and has them purposely throw curves? That's what my instructor at SGF did, he knew the controller well and occasionally had them throw me curve balls at will. How is this not just as effective as anything experienced at a bravo?


I don't fight in class bravos either, I've found no reason to do so. I've fought in numerous class charlies, but I've never had a reason to land at a bravo and I have over 1000 hours flying for my business and I'm confident that type of flying presented far more need/temptation to use a bravo than almost any typical "recreational" private pilot would be presented with.

The only thing I'll say in the defense of landing at a bravo is, if you know when their "push" times are, if you know when their other "busy" times are, and know when their "dead" times are, and if you ensure that you avoid all "push" and "busy" times and only land at "dead" times, then I'm more understanding.

I just still don't see a valid reason to do so though.

You talk as if every time a piston goes into a class B airliners make go arounds. This is hardly the case and if they do it is usually due to a controller "error" not a problem caused by the piston airplane. I don't know if they are still around, but Flight Express flew into KATL all the time during peak hours. KATL is the busiest airport in the world, yet ATC was able to work in the piston airplanes without an issue.

You may not have a reason to fly into a bravo, but I have many clients who do. I used the example of KPHX. I've had clients who find KATL is much more convenient for their business than the "normal" GA airports on the north side. KMEM is often much more convenient than the outlying airports. KMCI... well, okay that one is not really a brave. KHOU and KIAH can also be much more convenient and again, I had clients who preferred to fly into them.

Again, getting in is half the battle. The flight does not end until the chalks are in the tires so part of the learning curve is knowing how to get around at a busy class bravo once you land. Learning how to handle some of the nuances, such as at KATL learning about the different ATIS (departure/arrival); dealing with CD; different ground and tower frequencies; being told to "monitor tower" and don't be the guy that calls tower holding short.

 

[timwinters]

You talk as if every time a piston goes into a class B airliners make go arounds.

I made no such assertion. In fact I specifically stated "There may only be a slight chance of screwing with the big boys but there's still that chance."

You may not have a reason to fly into a bravo, but I have many clients who do.

And that's fine if they have a valid reason, but so few FLIBs do.

Again, getting in is half the battle. The flight does not end until the chalks are in the tires so part of the learning curve is knowing how to get around at a busy class bravo once you land. Learning how to handle some of the nuances, such as at KATL learning about the different ATIS (departure/arrival); dealing with CD; different ground and tower frequencies; being told to "monitor tower" and don't be the guy that calls tower holding short.

But you haven't made a valid argument as to why this same level of experience can't be gained at a class charlie, especially with cooperative controllers.

And it can be.

 

[Blackhawk]

I made no such assertion. In fact I specifically stated "There may only be a slight chance of screwing with the big boys but there's still that chance."



And that's fine if they have a valid reason, but so few FLIBs do.



But you haven't made a valid argument as to why this same level of experience can't be gained at a class charlie, especially with cooperative controllers.

And it can be.

Flying in a class C is hardly the same as flying into KATL, KDFW, KIAH...

 

[timwinters]

Flying in a class C is hardly the same as flying into KATL, KDFW, KIAH...

And, what percentage of private pilots need to fly, or have flown, into KATL, KDFW or KIAH? One in two hundred...at the most? One in five hundred? You yourself said:

Pilots should "train the way they will fight.

Sounds like you're training for the exception rather than the rule. Besides, being 10th (or 20th) in line for take-off isn't my idea of a fun day of training!

I'm done!

 

[Doggtyred]

And, what percentage of private pilots need to fly, or have flown, into KATL, KDFW or KIAH? One in two hundred...at the most? One in five hundred? You yourself said:


Sounds like you're training for the exception rather than the rule.

I'm done!

Ive done IAH once for need. There was a pickup/connection occurring there. We planned it for the off time. Had the whole airport to myself.

I think I had 300 hours or so when I did it.. but I grew up in the class Houston Class B...

 

[Blackhawk]

And, what percentage of private pilots need to fly, or have flown, into KATL, KDFW or KIAH? One in two hundred...at the most? One in five hundred? You yourself said:


Sounds like you're training for the exception rather than the rule. Besides, being 10th (or 20th) in line for take-off isn't my idea of a fun day of training!

I'm done!

I've had numerous pilots request to fly into these airports and with a need to do so. I wrote in a previous post why they wish to do so and there is no law or regulation that prohibits this. Is it a small percentage of the total aviation population? Of course. But off the top of my head, clients that wanted/needed to get in out of class bravo airports:
1. Matrix owner.
2. Several Bonanza owners. Three that I can think of off the top of my head.
3. Several Mooney owners.
4. A 206 owner.
5. A few 210 owners.
6. 310 owner.
7. A few pilots in training who had visions of moving on to the airlines and wanted to see what it was like in a light twin.

 

[asgcpa]

Tim

Last time I flew into the St Louis area it was VFR and I landed at CPS. When I commented on POA how nice ATC was in STL, someone on this board who is in ATC at STL suggested the next time I come to the area I do a touch & go at Lambert then on to SUS. My daughter lives in STL and I want to see her. So my thought is if I doesn't bug a controller and we are coming in on a weekend, why not?

My instructor is all about experiences with training. I deal with ORD Bravo all the time flying out of KPWK. I have had experience in a non towered as well as towered field; Delta and Charlie. I've been to RFD several times and did an ASR approach there. Also been there at night with the full light show. I would really like the experience and instructors I've spoken with think that it's a good idea as long as we stay away from push times. If I'm wrong, let me know. But I think the educational experience is what I want.

 

[Blackhawk]

Tim

Last time I flew into the St Louis area it was VFR and I landed at CPS. When I commented on POA how nice ATC was in STL, someone on this board who is in ATC at STL suggested the next time I come to the area I do a touch & go at Lambert then on to SUS. My daughter lives in STL and I want to see her. So my thought is if I doesn't bug a controller and we are coming in on a weekend, why not?

My instructor is all about experiences with training. I deal with ORD Bravo all the time flying out of KPWK. I have had experience in a non towered as well as towered field; Delta and Charlie. I've been to RFD several times and did an ASR approach there. Also been there at night with the full light show. I would really like the experience and instructors I've spoken with think that it's a good idea as long as we stay away from push times. If I'm wrong, let me know. But I think the educational experience is what I want.

You are not wrong. It is a good experience.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

I think the key is a well rounded instrument training program. This would include tower, non tower, busy and rural black hole approaches. Part of this should be visual transitions to a landing or touch and go from many different angles and altitudes.

 

[MarkZ]

I say go for it. Bring extra fuel just in case

 

[asgcpa]

I say go for it. Bring extra fuel just in case

Thanks Mark.

 

[Captain]

Have to admit, I didn't see the point of STL either. I'd take my student straight to SUS. If you want big airports then go to ORD some night and marvel at the size.

 

[Banjo33]

I've shot a few practice ILSs into STL coming back from OSH. In fact, have some decent pics of the arch because of it. If you stop there, take the crew car to Bandanas (just around the corner) for good BBQ.