Flying to Mexico? Read this.

[N801BH]

'Flown in Mexico about 7-8 times in the last 5 years. Never a problem and always an adventure. If you want everything to be predicable, just stay in the pattern...

So... Now, a nice trip for those who'd like an easy "first trip to Mexico"... or just a quick, fun beach fix. The Baja Bush Pilots are sponsoring another group trip to San Felipe (over Memorial Day weekend). A few weeks ago, we had about 60 planes down to Loreto for another BBP trip.

More info here

That is assuming your plane will still be there the next morning after coming back from the hotel.....

 

[Painter1]

Since I have lived in Mexico for a few years, launched multiple businesses here and dealt with the good and bad I want to correct a few misconceptions about the country:

Point one: Mexico is a 'chit hole'

I live in a city that Conde Nast named the #1 city in the world. There are 100 restaurants within walking distance from my house. I play tennis 2-3 days a week on beautifully maintained clay courts (and pay $5.28 for two hours of court time at todays exchange rate).

Yes, there is some damn extreme poverty here, but year by year that situation is improving.

Point two: You can't do anything without bribes.

I have been in Mexico for three years, made numerous flights, driven around the country, been involved with multiple businesses and never once had to pay a bribe. Quite the contrary, actually, one of the state governments subsidizes our office space as an incentive to create more jobs there.

Now, I'm not naive, I know that some people have had to pay bribes and that sucks.

Point three: Consider the source

Please note that the press release was put out by an organization that doesn't operate in Mexico, apparently isn't aware of the rules and seems to be trying to convince people to instead travel to locations in which they do operate. I have been to a couple places they operate, they are also lovely, but many also have crime and poverty problems.

Point four: The pilots allegation that he had reviewed notams and that should be enough

I'm willing to give him a slight benefit of the doubt on this one, but AOPA, Baja Pilots and Caribbean Sky Tours *all* have this information on their websites. When I made my first trip three years ago that was true and it's still true today. For example: http://www.aopa.org/Flight-Planning/Mexico

You cannot investigate a flight to Mexico without someone recommending one of those three organizations to you as information sources.

Point five: Incompetence of airport staff

It's a little ironic that someone complained about the incompetence of airport staff on a thread in which a pilot hadn't done a complete pre-flight planning exercise. That aside, my experience has been mostly good on this front. The rules can be a bit different at different airports though, and that can cause some to believe incompetence is at work. For example, I recently flew the Maule to Huatulco (side note, someone said there are better beaches than Mexico, I challenge you to find better beaches than some of the nearly untouched bays in Oaxaca state) and found the security procedures there to be different from Leon or Querétaro (all three are AOEs) and, of course, vastly different from the security at my base in Celaya (which isn't an AOE, but does have some Israeli built drones that look a lot like Predators, but I've been assured aren't. They are used to fight the drug war). The point is that it wasn't that the kid at the door was incompetent, it was that the rules were different and I didn't know them until I asked.

Another example, my very first flight into Mexico three years ago I spoke far less spanish than I do now. The woman in mexican FSS actually walked me to an office I needed to visit, translated for me then gave me her personal mobile number in case I needed help anywhere else along the way.

Another example, the only border crossing at which I've experienced incompetence was entering the US when CBP lost my eapis and threatened me with a 5,000 dollar fine. They did so with a nasty attitude and self important tone of voice. I think I don't need to point out that they didn't apologize when I produced the accepted filing and they sorted out their mistake. In fact, I've entered the US six times and only had a single pleasant experience (McAllen). Everywhere else I was made to feel like a criminal until proven innocent and they screwed things up twice.

Anyway, yeah, there are problems in Mexico, but to write the entire country off, as some in this thread have, doesn't make any more sense than writing off the Bahamas because of the slums in Nassau or refusing to visit Texas because of terrible neighborhoods in Dallas.

Well said, Sir.

 

[docmirror]

I've been going to Mexico for > 50 years. It's changed. Not for the better. Aviation aspect has gotten worse overall as well.

Sorry.

 

[beestforwardspeed]

My experience at Ft. Lauderdale says otherwise. We were made to wait in the airplane on the ramp on a 95F day and for over an hour and repeatedly threatened with fines and imprisonment if we stepped off the wing onto the pavement. Then i was further detained in their office for another 4 hours and repeatedly threatened with the same. They searched all our bags and brought in a drug dog to check the airplane. They removed the seats and pulled up the carpets. Then they had a shift change and then another crop of barney fifes lectured me about the seriousness of our infraction. I might still be there if there hadn't been a fire alarm in the building and we had to all go outside. To this day i wonder if someone took pity on me and pulled the alarm.

What did we do that was so wrong? We arrived at the customs office 5-10 minutes after our earliest scheduled eapis arrival time, but our wheels touching down onto american soil was alleged to be 4 minutes prior to our earliest time. There were at least 8 highly trained govermnet officials involved in our case throughout the day. Clearly an excellent use of my tax dollars.

Thank God I always carry a few cameras with me when I fly. if that were me I'd have sent a video to my congressman the next day with a time stamp, and not long after the whole world would know these thugs on YouTube!

Luckily all but one (out of 7) of my CBP encounters via GA have been very pleasant, and the 1 was only mildly unpleasant.

 

[MtnMarcus]

Between reading about this and recent imprisonments of US citizens, I'm done with Mexico. I've spent thousands of dollars there on a few family vacations in recent years and was very close to pulling the trigger this spring break but decided against it. Unlikely I will ever take my family back and will encourage anyone I know not to as well.

 

[Kritchlow]

My experience at Ft. Lauderdale says otherwise. We were made to wait in the airplane on the ramp on a 95F day and for over an hour and repeatedly threatened with fines and imprisonment if we stepped off the wing onto the pavement. Then i was further detained in their office for another 4 hours and repeatedly threatened with the same. They searched all our bags and brought in a drug dog to check the airplane. They removed the seats and pulled up the carpets. Then they had a shift change and then another crop of barney fifes lectured me about the seriousness of our infraction. I might still be there if there hadn't been a fire alarm in the building and we had to all go outside. To this day i wonder if someone took pity on me and pulled the alarm.

What did we do that was so wrong? We arrived at the customs office 5-10 minutes after our earliest scheduled eapis arrival time, but our wheels touching down onto american soil was alleged to be 4 minutes prior to our earliest time. There were at least 8 highly trained govermnet officials involved in our case throughout the day. Clearly an excellent use of my tax dollars.

You are proving my point... These are standard custom random procedures. Again, you may not like it, but if you draw the short straw you will get the extra scrutiny. It has happened to me as well.
To further prove my point, they didn't ask for the money in your wallet instead of the search... Did they?

 

[Ghery]

I've been to Mexico a number of times (most recently two weeks ago) and I haven't had any problems. Three times for business (including the most recent trip) and the rest for vacations. Always via commercial carrier, but... And that red light / green light thing? I've had it come up red exactly once. And that was no big deal.

 

[Palmpilot]

You are proving my point... These are standard custom random procedures. Again, you may not like it, but if you draw the short straw you will get the extra scrutiny. It has happened to me as well.
To further prove my point, they didn't ask for the money in your wallet instead of the search... Did they?

Why does it have to involve forcing people to remain in a non-air conditioned plane for over an hour in 95 degree heat? That's just inhumane, and possibly hazardous to some people's health.

 

[Kritchlow]

Why does it have to involve forcing people to remain in a non-air conditioned plane for over an hour in 95 degree heat? That's just inhumane, and possibly hazardous to some people's health.

Truth is they probably had no clue the temp in the airplane was like an oven. If you told them it's like summer in a car with the windows closed, I'm sure they would have made accommodations. If not, that's a perfect scenario for leagal action.. Civil, and possibly criminal. I just can't believe that happened.

More to my point, I'm positive they never said "wait in the airplane unless you give me $500". I would expect that in Mexico.

 

[Palmpilot]

Truth is they probably had no clue the temp in the airplane was like an oven. If you told them it's like summer in a car with the windows closed, I'm sure they would have made accommodations. If not, that's a perfect scenario for leagal action.. Civil, and possibly criminal. I just can't believe that happened.

I've been reading Jeff's posts for a long time, and haven't found any reason to believe that he makes things up. Whether CBP personnel knew that non-air conditioned planes get hot in the summer is beside the point. The issue is, what should the procedure be in the future? They need to have some place where they can keep people that's out of the heat if they need to isolate them.

More to my point, I'm positive they never said "wait in the airplane unless you give me $500". I would expect that in Mexico.

Who claimed that?

 

[JHW]

You are proving my point... These are standard custom random procedures. Again, you may not like it, but if you draw the short straw you will get the extra scrutiny. It has happened to me as well.
To further prove my point, they didn't ask for the money in your wallet instead of the search... Did they?

read the Op again, i saw no mention of a personal bribe, only bureacrats and regulators run amok just like in the USA

 

[Kritchlow]

I've been reading Jeff's posts for a long time, and haven't found any reason to believe that he makes things up. Whether CBP personnel knew that non-air conditioned planes get hot in the summer is beside the point. The issue is, what should the procedure be in the future? They need to have some place where they can keep people that's out of the heat if they need to isolate them.



Who claimed that?

I haven't read his posts for a long time, and still have no reason to think he makes things up. That said, two reasonable people can experience the same thing and interpret or describe it differently.

As to you second point, you need to read earlier in the thread to get the context.

 

[Kritchlow]

read the Op again, i saw no mention of a personal bribe, only bureacrats and regulators run amok just like in the USA

Are you denying Mexican officials take bribes?

 

[Palmpilot]

I haven't read his posts for a long time, and still have no reason to think he makes things up. That said, two reasonable people can experience the same thing and interpret or describe it differently.

They either force people to stay in hot airplanes for an hour or they don't. If they're doing that, they should find another way of accomplishing their purpose. I don't see how describing it differently is going to change that.

 

[Kritchlow]

They either force people to stay in hot airplanes for an hour or they don't. If they're doing that, they should find another way of accomplishing their purpose. I don't see how describing it differently is going to change that.

Well, my point is different people can have a different perception or tolerance for temperature and time. I certainly don't think anyone is intentionally lying here.
You seem to have a hard core stance with little room for acceptance of other views. I didn't either at one point in life... I guess 20 years of marriage took care of that!!!
Seriously... I respect different opinions. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Henning]

Dude forgot to hand the arresting officer $100 while apologizing for his transgression. It's Mexico, if you want to play by U.S. rules, you best either stay in the U.S. or fly on arranged tours. I remember back when it was only $10 to get out of the back of a cop car. It's the price of stupid. If you don't want to learn the game, it's gonna cost you extra. The official term is Mordida.

 

[Palmpilot]

Well, my point is different people can have a different perception or tolerance for temperature and time. I certainly don't think anyone is intentionally lying here.
You seem to have a hard core stance with little room for acceptance of other views. I didn't either at one point in life... I guess 20 years of marriage took care of that!!!
Seriously... I respect different opinions. Let's just agree to disagree.

Since we disagree, it's evident that neither of us accepts the view of the other. Fortunately, we're not married to each other!

I just can't see any reason why the procedure that was followed in that incident is necessary. So far, no one has explained why the requirements of random customs procedures can't be met in a better way.

 

[Kritchlow]

Since we disagree, it's evident that neither of us accepts the view of the other. Fortunately, we're not married to each other!

I just can't see any reason why the procedure that was followed in that incident is necessary. So far, no one has explained why the requirements of random customs procedures can't be met in a better way.

Lol!!! I agree on both accounts!!

 

[frcabot]

Fwiw I had other issues in Mexico but they were minor in comparison, and no government official has ever asked me for or even intimated any sort of a request for a bribe in Mexico, ever. Frankly, with the policia federal running around everywhere arresting corrupt government officials, local police and politicians, it wouldn't be very smart either-- because my first call would be to the policia federal.

Sounds like the pilot is at fault for not checking well publicized Mexican rules. If he had landed in the US beyond the first POE, I guarantee you he'd be looking at a lot more than a $1000 fine, and quite possibly a loss of his license as well. And it would NOT take a week, but probably months or even years for the administrative bureaucracy to run its course.

 

[frcabot]

Also, just as in the US, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. As others have pointed out, these specific regulations are all available through AOPA, baja Bush pilots, caribbean sky tours and other sites.

 

[frcabot]

Belize is not on that list. Also the ICAO NOTAM uses the word 'should', as opposed to must, shall, or will.

Not that any of this stuff matters, it's just a mordida system at work anyway...

Huh??

First of all, the NOTAM is in the AIP, just where it's supposed to be. Second, you should bone up on your geography my friend, because Belize is indeed in central America. Thirdly, the NOTAM says must, not should.

“Mexican NOTAM A 0313/08 is still in effect and has been incorporated into the Mexican Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP): Effective Feb. 1, 2008, any general aviation aircraft that plans to land in Mexico on a flight that originated in the Caribbean or CENTRAL (Yes, Belize is indeed in CENTRAL America) and South America, MUST (not, note should, but MUST) make their first landing in either Cozumel (MMCZ), or in Tapachula (MMTP). Both airports operate on a 24-hour schedule. This NOTAM is in effect until further notice.“

Quite obviously, the pilot in question did NOT check NOTAMS as he claims he did.

 

[JHW]

Are you denying Mexican officials take bribes?

I said nothing of the sort. That is not the subject of this thread, at least not until you brought it up of your own accord.

 

[frcabot]

AIP paragraph 4.1.3. Cuando provengan de las regiones Caribe, Centro y Sudamérica y el operador no cuente con "Certificación de Vuelo Seguro" deberán únicamente utilizar como aeropuertos de entrada al país Tapachula y Cozumel, y será sujeto a la revisión estándar que determinen las autoridades competentes. no aplica para aeronaves de estado o aeronaves de aviación general que transporten a funcionarios de los siguientes rangos: jefe de estado, jefe de gobierno, ministros, viceministro o enviado especial, previa nota diplomática.

Obviously says MUST land at cozumel or the other airport if coming from central America including Belize. Dude is moted and an idiot. As is whoever wrote that nonsense propaganda on the first page.

 

[agidi]

Huh??

First of all, the NOTAM is in the AIP, just where it's supposed to be. Second, you should bone up on your geography my friend, because Belize is indeed in central America. Thirdly, the NOTAM says must, not should.

“Mexican NOTAM A 0313/08 is still in effect and has been incorporated into the Mexican Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP): Effective Feb. 1, 2008, any general aviation aircraft that plans to land in Mexico on a flight that originated in the Caribbean or CENTRAL (Yes, Belize is indeed in CENTRAL America) and South America, MUST (not, note should, but MUST) make their first landing in either Cozumel (MMCZ), or in Tapachula (MMTP). Both airports operate on a 24-hour schedule. This NOTAM is in effect until further notice.“

Quite obviously, the pilot in question did NOT check NOTAMS as he claims he did.

I guess this clears things up after several pages of calling names and pointing fingers, the pilot did not read the rules.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dr. O]

Local doc here supported a medical missionary clinic in Columbia for decades. Every year he would fill his plane with donated medical supplies and fly to Columbia, just across the Mexican border, and then do plastic surgery for 4 weeks on kids for free including mexican kids... He began having issues with the Mexican Guardia when he stopped for fuel. The final straw was when the local Guardia was a roughly 15 year old kid in a raggedy army jacket and an AK47 who needed a $100 for 'guarding' the plane. He realized then the next escalation would be they would need the plane and he would turn up missing. That was the end of the free plastic surgery that was impossible for those poor kids to get any other way.

 

[rwellner98]

Local doc here supported a medical missionary clinic in Columbia for decades. Every year he would fill his plane with donated medical supplies and fly to Columbia, just across the Mexican border, and then do plastic surgery for 4 weeks on kids for free including mexican kids... He began having issues with the Mexican Guardia when he stopped for fuel. The final straw was when the local Guardia was a roughly 15 year old kid in a raggedy army jacket and an AK47 who needed a $100 for 'guarding' the plane. He realized then the next escalation would be they would need the plane and he would turn up missing. That was the end of the free plastic surgery that was impossible for those poor kids to get any other way.

Please pass along the good news that neither I nor any of my friends have ever experienced such a thing, so things have either improved or his experience was an anomaly. I would be happy to recommend an airport where I know the comandante and several of the military guards and would welcome him to stay in my guest house as he passes through to encourage him to resume the free surgeries.

 

[Henning]

Fwiw I had other issues in Mexico but they were minor in comparison, and no government official has ever asked me for or even intimated any sort of a request for a bribe in Mexico, ever. Frankly, with the policia federal running around everywhere arresting corrupt government officials, local police and politicians, it wouldn't be very smart either-- because my first call would be to the policia federal.

Sounds like the pilot is at fault for not checking well publicized Mexican rules. If he had landed in the US beyond the first POE, I guarantee you he'd be looking at a lot more than a $1000 fine, and quite possibly a loss of his license as well. And it would NOT take a week, but probably months or even years for the administrative bureaucracy to run its course.

They will never ask, they may drop a hint if you aren't forthcoming, but if you don't play the game, you are going to go through the whole system and get charged out the wazoo for being an ignorant Gringo who doesn't even bother to learn the customs of the places they visit.

 

[Henning]

Huh??

First of all, the NOTAM is in the AIP, just where it's supposed to be. Second, you should bone up on your geography my friend, because Belize is indeed in central America. Thirdly, the NOTAM says must, not should.

“Mexican NOTAM A 0313/08 is still in effect and has been incorporated into the Mexican Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP): Effective Feb. 1, 2008, any general aviation aircraft that plans to land in Mexico on a flight that originated in the Caribbean or CENTRAL (Yes, Belize is indeed in CENTRAL America) and South America, MUST (not, note should, but MUST) make their first landing in either Cozumel (MMCZ), or in Tapachula (MMTP). Both airports operate on a 24-hour schedule. This NOTAM is in effect until further notice.“

Quite obviously, the pilot in question did NOT check NOTAMS as he claims he did.

Wait, what? The dude doesn't land at an airport of entry and has the balls to ***** for being billed the full float when he didn't appologize with a Benjamin?

 

[Henning]

I said nothing of the sort. That is not the subject of this thread, at least not until you brought it up of your own accord.

Well, then it should be the subject of this thread. This went stupid only because the peson failed to educate themselves on the standards and customs of where they were going, and applied American ethics of always following official channels. Well, if you want to play by American rules in Mexico, you will get treated in the light of how Mexicans get treated in America, so you get ****ed.

 

[N801BH]

Well, then it should be the subject of this thread. This went stupid only because the peson failed to educate themselves on the standards and customs of where they were going, and applied American ethics of always following official channels. Well, if you want to play by American rules in Mexico, you will get treated in the light of how Mexicans get treated in America, so you get ****ed.

Henning..... Mexicans have NEVER had it so good in America..... If it were bad..... they would be leaving in droves.....

And they ain't...

 

[Henning]

Local doc here supported a medical missionary clinic in Columbia for decades. Every year he would fill his plane with donated medical supplies and fly to Columbia, just across the Mexican border, and then do plastic surgery for 4 weeks on kids for free including mexican kids... He began having issues with the Mexican Guardia when he stopped for fuel. The final straw was when the local Guardia was a roughly 15 year old kid in a raggedy army jacket and an AK47 who needed a $100 for 'guarding' the plane. He realized then the next escalation would be they would need the plane and he would turn up missing. That was the end of the free plastic surgery that was impossible for those poor kids to get any other way.

The fact that the kid had an AK-47 says something about the situation, they used to carry M-16s. As for him asking for it, I never have that issue, I tip them up front. If there is no Guardia around I pay the kid on the airport (or marina) $20 a day to keep an eye on it. For $20 a day I get him, his brothers, dad, and uncles watching out for my stuff. If there's going to be something stolen, it will be the one next to mine.

 

[Henning]

Henning..... Mexicans have NEVER had it so good in America..... If it were bad..... they would be leaving in droves.....

And they ain't...

You have got to be ****ting me. You would never accept the treatment and conditions of most. Besides, do you think a Mexican gets a discount on tickets here, or when they get caught breaking the rules it costs them nothing?

In America the same error costs $10,000, not $1000.

 

[N801BH]

]You have got to be ****ting me.[/B] You would never accept the treatment and conditions of most. You think a Mexican gets a discount on tickes here, or when they get caught breaking the rules it costs them nothing?

I wouldn't siht you,,,,, you are my favorite turd...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Dude, it's Mexico, home of corruption and shady dealings.

Exactly. I'm trying to understand how this is any different from what has been going on since I used to fly business trips with my dad to Hermosillo back in the late 80s.

Overheard in the airport terminal.....Mexican Official to hapless American pilot who asked what he needed to do to clear up some confusion with his entry: "You gonna need a lawyer"

 

[weirdjim]

Also, just as in the US, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

A lawyer once argued in court that his client meant no harm and that the transgression was a subtle and minor offense.

The judge thundered that ignorance of the law was no excuse.

The lawyer responded that yes, every poor shopkeeper, indeed every citizen has no expectation that ignorance of the law was no excuse, except you, your honor, and we have the appellate courts to correct your ignorance.

Jim

 

[Henning]

Exactly. I'm trying to understand how this is any different from what has been going on since I used to fly business trips with my dad to Hermosillo back in the late 80s.

Overheard in the airport terminal.....Mexican Official to hapless American pilot who asked what he needed to do to clear up some confusion with his entry: "You gonna need a lawyer"

Pulls $20 out of wallet, "Is there no way I can just pay the fine now?"

 

[rwellner98]

Henning..... Mexicans have NEVER had it so good in America..... If it were bad..... they would be leaving in droves.....

Net migration has been *from* the us *to* mexico for a few years now. Many (most?) of the immigrants crossing the border into the US are from central america these days, though in the past six months the US has convinced/helped Mexico tighten the border with Guatemala considerably.

Some friends of mine have been gathering some of their stories here: http://www.mittieroger.com/migrant-project/?category=Migrant+Project

 

[N801BH]

Net migration has been *from* the us *to* mexico for a few years now. Many (most?) of the immigrants crossing the border into the US are from central america these days, though in the past six months the US has convinced/helped Mexico tighten the border with Guatemala considerably.

Some friends of mine have been gathering some of their stories here: http://www.mittieroger.com/migrant-project/?category=Migrant+Project

Interesting... I only see my small sliver of America... But at the last survey, 94% of the illegals here are from a place called Texacala ..(sp)...

My guess is there is no one left there as 7200 of them are here in the Hole...

 

[Henning]

Interesting... I only see my small sliver of America... But at the last survey, 94% of the illegals here are from a place called Texacala ..(sp)...

My guess is there is no one left there as 7200 of them are here in the Hole...

You see a very minisicule part of the world from your vantage, and due to the situation of that view, it is greatly skewed from the overall reality. You know why the illegal situation in Jackson Hole is the way it is? Because that's the way rich people want it to be everywhere. They are the demand that the supply comes to. Your view is what it is because you live in an isolated valley of extreme wealth concentration. What you are seeing is how little the wealthy really care about the overall damage they cause in the pursuit of attaining and maintaining wealth.

 

[docmirror]

Net migration has been *from* the us *to* mexico for a few years now. Many (most?) of the immigrants crossing the border into the US are from central america these days, though in the past six months the US has convinced/helped Mexico tighten the border with Guatemala considerably.

Some friends of mine have been gathering some of their stories here: http://www.mittieroger.com/migrant-project/?category=Migrant+Project

Wow, that almost brought a tear to my eye. Gosh, all those honest, hard working, poor immigrants. I'm sure none of them would break the law by coming into the US now would they? Surely not.