Flying to KORD

Agree with joe. OP is going out of his way to be a pia. It's no different than if I took my tractor to Chicago and drove it down the Dan Ryan at rush hour, just because I can.

I don't think a $1k landing fee would be out of line. For the people who have a need to be there it won't matter.
 
comanchepilot said:
You misunderstand - what you can do and should do are two different things.

Yeah, ok, a controller misjudged the speed that the OP here could fly his airplane to land - that is the controllers problem with the consequences to 240 other people.

I'm not saying that one should not go to a large airport if they have the skills for it - and the reason to go - sure - taxpayer funded airports etc etc etc. I fund the White House and Congress too and they're not going to let me just come in and wander around a little while - well - maybe Congress - but not all of it.

It just seems incredibly selfish to me [see that to me part?] to blunder around CLass B airspace and delay 250 people and cost an airline $2000 so you can add three letters to a logbook.

You can disagree - its ok. I'm not going to get angry at anyone. . . .
Click to expand...

Doesn't necessarily seem selfish, but perhaps uncourteous. If airliners (and I didn't see the traffic in question identified such) had to go around, that seems like a controller issue. I've flown into DCA (prior to 2001) and major airline hubs many times. ATC has often requested "best forward speed," and I give it to them, which in my fixed-gear Cherokee usually translates to 120kts to the runway. Then, I have to slow it down and get out of the way on the ground. If I'm too slow, my expectations would be that I may never get there, because I'll be sequenced behind a constant stream of faster traffic. I do think that there is likely an expectation that folks flying into places such as ORD will be experienced enough to keep up and stay out of the way.

If I go to a busy Class D reliever and am sequenced in front of a biz jet, 90 knots on the approach and 60 knots on final isn't going to cut it. I think that pilots need to ensure that they are fully prepared for the operation that they are about to conduct.

With that being said, banning light aircraft from these types of airports or operations (directly or effectively through prohibitive fees) seems like the typical, knee-jerk, brain-dead response that attempts to cure the symptom rather than the disease, and would likely have unintended consequences for everyone. There is no reason why a properly prepared pilot cannot conduct these types of operations without disrupting everyone else.


JKG
 
I agree with everyone . . . . honest.

However, the OP stated that TWO airliners went around for his arrival.

The first one was controller error.

The second one was pilot 'error.' Keep your speed up.

Glad to hear the controllers welcome small GA to the party - thats always nice to hear. Its a party I'll come to if I need to - not because I want to. . . . you get some airline president onboard one of those airliners that goes around and we're never going to hear the end of it. . . .
 
If someone wants to bag a large airport, Just do it at 2AM...:yes::rolleyes:
 
And people actually wonder why GA has such a bad public opinion/needs better PR.

We have met the enemy....and it is us.
 
I don't agree with comanchepilot on much but I'm squarely in his camp on this one. I wouldn't fly into ORD in my 182 even if I had business on the field much less just for ****s and giggles.

Not that I'd be intimidated by it but rather exactly because of the possibility of costing an airliner a few $k by causing a go around. Selfish and inconsiderate are generous terms.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Really? No, it's not. Not if you have a reason to be there.
Click to expand...

And are you seriously trying to tell me that you wouldn't be P.O.'ed if you had to go-around in an airliner because some putz was lumbering into ORD in a C177 at 75 kts?
 
"Seneca 755, Direct PLANO, maintain 8 thousand. After PLANO, fly heading 080 intercept the localizer 4-right. Maintain 170 knots."

That's what you get.

If you can't make 170, don't accept. They'll vector you around until there is a gap (not in the Push) and then try to stick you in someplace.....
 
Last edited:
timwinters said:
And are you seriously trying to tell me that you wouldn't be P.O.'ed if you had to go-around in an airliner because some putz was lumbering into ORD in a C177 at 75 kts?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am seriously saying that.

I have had to go around because some putz of a controller tried to jam in too many movements on too little concrete. Same idea.

The only time I would be SLIGHTLY irritated is if it makes me miss my commuter flight home. :D
 
I can't do 170 in the Comanche . . .I can give them maybe 155 true and then perhaps 140 down at 2000.

I've never understood why at a big tracon on a VFR day they can't simply find a hole or make one - and have you fly a parallel final . . . space you a mile or two off the LOC - clear you for a visual tell you to expect a side-step to the runway - maintain 120kts over the ground . . . then just slide you in a couple miles from the end of the runway. Assuming VMC of course.
 
comanchepilot said:
I can't do 170 in the Comanche . . .I can give them maybe 155 true and then perhaps 140 down at 2000.
Click to expand...

You ain't tryin' hard enough! Balls out, and on a descent I can get pretty close to 170. 155 straight and level.
 
EdFred said:
You ain't tryin' hard enough! Balls out, and on a descent I can get pretty close to 170. 155 straight and level.
Click to expand...

well, sure - and on final perhaps I can maintain 170 in a 700fpm or greater descent - can't do it any less than that - and most ILS's and approaches provided by ATC are less than that -

Will point out that those numbers are solidly in the yellow on the ASI - and around all that potential wake I'm not flying in the yellow. I'll tell 'em I can give em 150 . .. .
 
comanchepilot said:
well, sure - and on final perhaps I can maintain 170 in a 700fpm or greater descent - can't do it any less than that - and most ILS's and approaches provided by ATC are less than that -

Will point out that those numbers are solidly in the yellow on the ASI - and around all that potential wake I'm not flying in the yellow. I'll tell 'em I can give em 150 . .. .
Click to expand...

Oh, we are going to be well into the yellow until 500', then it's power to idle, full rudder slip, nose up, gear, white arc, flaps, crank on the trim handle, chirp chirp.
 
comanchepilot said:
However, the OP stated that TWO airliners went around for his arrival.

The first one was controller error.

The second one was pilot 'error.' Keep your speed up.
Click to expand...

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Maybe the controller didn't know the airspeed limits of the aircraft.
Maybe the second didn't slow down quickly enough and caused a spacing issue.
Maybe the go around had nothing to do with the OP.

Because you know, jets NEVER go around when there's no GA planes around, right?

You've said that repeatedly. Maybe you're right, but maybe you're not.
Saying it with conviction doesn't make it true.
 
EdFred said:
Oh, we are going to be well into the yellow until 500', then it's power to idle, full rudder slip, nose up, gear, white arc, flaps, crank on the trim handle, chirp chirp.
Click to expand...

Tend to agree, Ed, but that depends on the air. If no smooth air, then we're not in the yellow. And Chicago isn't exactly known for smooth air.

We flew Skyhawks out of TPA all the time (police aviation, the hangar's there). Sometimes it was a slam dunk in the yellow (usually at night). Sometime it wasn't (like summer afternoons).
But they also didn't land us on the primary runway, usually, unless the wind was rocking.
 
You get nabbed by a rotor or a nasty bump from those big jets flying around you all the time - and you're in the yellow you can break something - in a 40 year old plus airframe.

And yeah Alan - I get it - but I also do not believe in coincidence. No matter how convenient it may appear!
 
comanchepilot said:
You get nabbed by a rotor or a nasty bump from those big jets flying around you all the time - and you're in the yellow you can break something - in a 40 year old plus airframe.

And yeah Alan - I get it - but I also do not believe in coincidence. No matter how convenient it may appear!
Click to expand...

Just stay a dot above glideslope and that pretty much isn't an issue.
 
I don't think of it as a right or a privilege. I look at it as an honor and a fantastic learning experience that shouldn't be abused. As such, if you are going to ORD or JFK, you need to have the skills to fly a fast approach and the ability to handle the radio and taxi. And do NOT go at rush hour.

Say hello to the bad guy because I went to JFK, LGA and TEB with Bob. (Whatever happened to that guy?) We went in the middle of the day when it was quiet. No holds, no delaying vectors, no long traffic jam, just in and out. Same at LGA. I had no interest in going to EWR 'cause...well...it sucks. At the time I was a very low time pilot and it was an awesome learning experience.

I have flown something like 2,000,000 miles on commercial airlines, which I think equates to about 6,000 hours as self loading freight, mostly in and out of NYC. I have literally spent days of my life waiting for a gate or in the congo line for departure at JFK or LGA. No bug smasher has any business going in these airports at peak times or with weather delays but when you are not taxing the system, no harm no foul. I don't know what happened that caused one or two planes to go around but obviously something went very wrong on this flight.

And yes, it's pretty selfish to delay passengers if that really happened but commercial airlines have cost me and every other good customer they have many thousands of dollars due to incompetence, timed out crews, maintenance, needless delays. lost luggage etc so the fact that a piston single cost Delta a go around, god bless him. If anyone missed a connection because of a go around, the airline had already screwed up and was way behind schedule.
 
Funny, the Class Bravo Airport novelty wore off after the third time or so.

After then, it's just another airport...
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Just stay a dot above glideslope and that pretty much isn't an issue.
Click to expand...

True, Greg - but ATC sometimes has other ideas for the altitude they want you at coming into a busy airport . . .and obviously visual approaches here.
 
comanchepilot said:
And yeah Alan - I get it - but I also do not believe in coincidence. No matter how convenient it may appear!
Click to expand...

If random events didn't occasionally coincide, that would prove that they weren't random.
 
I've been doing quite a few trips into KMDW lately. Frankly it's a PITA, and I can't imagine doing it for "fun" or just to get it in the logbook. If you're not going 170 - 180 in the approach and 120 - 130 on final, you're in the way. That's just the facts.
Yes, we must retain our right to go into Bravo airports in SE piston planes. I don't think that is best accomplished by trying to do it at a busy time.
 
Palmpilot said:
If random events didn't occasionally coincide, that would prove that they weren't random.
Click to expand...

I will say that the world is not completely random - proof of this lies in my mountain bike ride every morning. Its a 7.5 mile loop - over fire road. There are walkers there as well. You would think that over all the distribution of humans is pretty random - but its not. Consider that when a group of two or more is walking away from me [I am approaching on the bike] and a group two or more is coming toward us - we ALWAYS meet - meaning I have to ride exactly between the two groups. That is not random chance because it happens all the time.

Think about you driving along residential streets. Again car movements should be pretty random. Yet when you come to a stop sign - there is ALWAYS a car coming making you stop for longer than just a quick stop and go. Yet if sat at that intersection for 16 hours it would be empty probably 99% of the time. . . .
 
Lance F said:
I've been doing quite a few trips into KMDW lately. Frankly it's a PITA, and I can't imagine doing it for "fun" or just to get it in the logbook. If you're not going 170 - 180 in the approach and 120 - 130 on final, you're in the way. That's just the facts.
Yes, we must retain our right to go into Bravo airports in SE piston planes. I don't think that is best accomplished by trying to do it at a busy time.
Click to expand...

And MDW is Class C . ..
 
If you feel like it and it's worth the hassle to you, I say do it and do it every day you can. If some BS politician wants less GA traffic into his International Airport, he shouldn't have shut down Meigs! If the airport cannot handle the increased load of G.A. traffic, no better excuse for more money to build another airport or support another one to deflect the traffic than to say 'we just don't have the capacity' to the FED. That's my way of thinking. Kind of like the old advice when calling 1800-wx-brief who used to track hang ups to determine capacity. If you are on hold, many advised me to hang up and call again so the point gets across that more capacity is needed. That being said, ORD has been a hassle for decades, which is why I never had it on my bucket list. Meigs was however.
 
As long as guys like Greg are not trying to land their Boeings and Airbusses at my little GA airport I see no good reason to go fooling around into the heavy metal airports unless I really NEED to. Just getting something into my logbook is not, to me, a need to situation. Sure one can do it, but if it is just for fun, one should not be disruptive and at least should minimize disruptions.
 
comanchepilot said:
And MDW is Class C . ..
Click to expand...

Touché. Otoh KMDW is all heavy iron, the expectations of ATC are heavy iron level and the taxi dance with all the criss crossing runways rival any Bravo.
I'm just saying doing one of these airports for "fun" makes no sense to this pilot for many reasons.
 
Lance F said:
Touché. Otoh KMDW is all heavy iron, the expectations of ATC are heavy iron level and the taxi dance with all the criss crossing runways rival any Bravo.
I'm just saying doing one of these airports for "fun" makes no sense to this pilot for many reasons.
Click to expand...

My comment was simply to point out that MDW is not even Class B - and look how busy it is and how much A game you need to operate there. . . it was not negative.

I've got MDW in the log - but I was going to ChiTown for 48 hours - I'm not fighting my way into the city from South Bend or Joliet, or risking a Lake Michigan crossing to land at Palwaukee or whatever its called now. . ..
 
While I think the original poster had every right to go in to ORD in the bugsmasher, I definitely agree with those in the "don't get in their way unless you have business there."

I have business at JFK on occasion in both the Aerostar and my Twinkie. On an instrument flight into JFK one evening, They wanted me to keep up at least 160 kts until 2 mile final, on glideslope. That is faster than gear speed, so I told them I needed more time to slow down. Managed to get to gear speed and started slowing down for short final, and they cancelled my landing clearance and sent me around. They then told me to go somewhere else, at which I replied that I had to land there for a commercial customer. They decided to vector me around and worked a slightly larger gap for me to fit in.

When my wife had a flight to and from JFK, I chose to land at nearby FRG and take the train in. I chose not to get in their way with the slower Twinkie that time.

I would not go to one of these airports "just to log the episode."
 
Nah. I deserved a knock for even implying MDW was Bravo. My excuse...I'd just finished a 16 hour day including a 4.3 hour leg out of guess where. Yeah KMDW.
Check it out on FA. November 830 fox Lima.
 
comanchepilot said:
I've never understood why at a big tracon on a VFR day they can't simply find a hole or make one - and have you fly a parallel final . . . space you a mile or two off the LOC - clear you for a visual tell you to expect a side-step to the runway - maintain 120kts over the ground . . . then just slide you in a couple miles from the end of the runway. Assuming VMC of course.
Click to expand...

I'd bet that the 7110.65 doesn't allow for such shenanigans... I think they need a 3-mile halo around the big birds. It'd probably be better to bring you in across the general flow of traffic and have you orbit above the field at TPA until there's a gap big enough to slam-dunk you in.

But, all of the above require lots of extra attention, so doing it at a busy time of day is kind of an ******* move. Everyone's got the right to be an *******, but that doesn't mean you should.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top