Flying to California low and slow

Diana

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Diana
Tom and I plan to fly the Citabria to California next May. We’ll head southwest from southwest MO and will take the southern route on the way out west/southwest. Once we get to the northern LA area, we will head north and then who knows.

We like to stop at small airports with character (and characters), and we aren’t into museums or large airports with fancy FBOs. If we can hook up with friends along the way, then the trip will be even more fun and rewarding.

We prefer to stop every 200 miles (or even less than that).

Because “somebody” has a body that doesn’t handle altitude well, we hope to find routes that will enable us to stay lower when possible.

AND, we need to find someone to come to the farm and live with our kitties and mow our runways while we’re gone.

I’m open to suggestions if anyone has any ideas.

Thanks!
 
Well, you should fly through northern Arizona or southern Utah, for sure, and visit the Monument Valley and Lake Powell areas!

If you land at Gouldings in Monument Valley (listed as Monument Valley private 5192 - 40 on the Denver sectional) you will be at one of the nicest Navajo trading posts on the whole reservation (bring your credit card for some nice art!) and they have inexpensive hotel rooms there too. They will ship your stuff home for you ;)

Then shoot over to Cal Black Memorial (U96) and fuel up. Say hi to the airport guy there for me, he is usually pretty lonely - if you go you will understand why. Then to Bullfrog (U07) where you can tie down and either walk down to the lake and lodge for dinner and a hotel (and a dip!) or the National Park Service campground, or call them on the unicom and they will send a van up to get you. There are several nice backcountry camping strips in the area too, you can find them on the Utah Backountry Pilots Assn website.

Or instead you could go to Page, fuel up, then land at Marble Canyon and spend the night at the Marble Canyon Lodge.

Leaving to head west you should overnight in Mesquite, NV. Cheapest nice hotel rooms around (in the Casinos) with free shuttles from the airport, very accommodating and unpretentious people at the FBO. Bryce Canyon airport is nice too but it is over 7K in elevation. The rest of those stops are around 4K or under in elevation.
 
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If you come through New Mexico, my suggestions are simple: Taos (for beauty), Lindrith (beauty and dirt) and that's about it.

My suggestion for your flight though would be to probably avoid NM and fly as close to southern CO as you can. Its mountainous, but flyable.
 
What is your max altitude?

Here is the route I took in September. Lots of hot MOAs and weather. I did spend some time at between 8.5 and 10K especially near Santa Fe/Albuquerque and coming into LA basin.

Joe
 

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which part of may?? gosh you have all the fun diana :)
 
What is your max altitude?

Here is the route I took in September. Lots of hot MOAs and weather. I did spend some time at between 8.5 and 10K especially near Santa Fe/Albuquerque and coming into LA basin.

Joe

I should qualify: The reason I suggest avoiding New Mexico isn't for any reason other than that while there's AWESOME scenery, there's not really any airports that fit Diana's mission.
 
What is your max altitude?
5,000 for constant and above that for temporary.

I did spend some time at between 8.5 and 10K especially near Santa Fe/Albuquerque and coming into LA basin.

Joe
Anyway to do it lower and stay safe? The nice thing about being married to a pilot is that he can fly if I don't feel smart enough to fly safely.
 
which part of may??
Tom has to check to see when his ground school is over at PSU.

gosh you have all the fun diana :)
Tony, you just have to plan for it. Plan to have fun, and then say you will have fun, and then borrow money or sell something so that you can afford to have fun. :D

One of Tom's students said he just had to sell a cow to take more lessons or sell quite a few to buy an airplane. :D
 
Tom has to check to see when his ground school is over at PSU.

Tony, you just have to plan for it. Plan to have fun, and then say you will have fun, and then borrow money or sell something so that you can afford to have fun. :D

One of Tom's students said he just had to sell a cow to take more lessons or sell quite a few to buy an airplane. :D

very very true diana. i love your spirit.
 
Anyway to do it lower and stay safe? The nice thing about being married to a pilot is that he can fly if I don't feel smart enough to fly safely.

Indeed there is, if you stay way south, and head down near Mexico, you can stay quite low. For example, from your farm:

Head southwest towards Sheppard Air Force Base, then continue towards Marfa. Then head west towards Las Cruces (staying south of the Restricted area), and then continue west towards KDUG, and then, after Tucson, you can start heading north a bit. Highest elevation should be around 4200ft, tops. That means you can get away with staying low most of the way.

Its tough to cross the Rockies low, but its doable. You gotta stay way south or way noth to do it.
 
Well, low is a relative thing. I can tell you this, If you look at R-5107 on the ALB chart, you'll see that your two choices are around north at an altitude of 8500 minimum, or south through eastern NM all the way to El Paso. If you choose the northern route, make your way to The corona VOR.

From there, due west will take you over the Mongolon plateau to St Johns. Cheap gas, and use the courtesy car to get food. If you ask for it for longer, you can drive up through Petrified forest. A bleak, and bizzare landscape, you have to see to believe. Leave SJN and go west to Winslow area, overfly Meteor Crator. Turn slightly south and fly through Sedona canyon. You can stop at Sedona for gas and a meal. Keep west to Prescott valley at around 6500', and head over the big mine at Bagdad. Stop in at Lake Havasu. Rent a jet ski for half a day, and tootle up the lake into Topock gorge, beautiful.

From Havasu, things get pretty desert and boring right into LA area. The Santa Paula airport is pretty neat, and they have good Citabria service if you need anything. On the way back, I don't know how far north you're going, but anything past Bakersfield, and east through the Kern Valley, is gonna get very high in altitude quickly. Inyokern is due east, and from there, you have to jog around some R areas to La Vegas(why not?). If you want an interesting side trip you could go north from Inyokern to Furnace Creek and land at -215 feet elevation. Gas gets hard to come by, so keep plenty of fuel with you. May have to carry some in a can, or make arrangements in advance.

Out of Vegas, basically follow the Colorado river NE. Watch for the minimum altitudes over the Grand Canyon. Stop at Page, and from there, fly over lake Powell which is spactacular, up to Carl Black. Jog around through Monument Valley. From teh four corners area, you have to make a decision. If you want to stay low, you're stuck going back east over the same mongolon plateau. Of you want to get over 10,000', you can continue to follow the Colorado river through some spactacular, but rough high country. Turn right to Hopkins airport at the town of Nucla. Stay up Mckenzie creek going west, then turn north a bit to the Black mesa Gunnison area.

Up to now, you can stay below 10,000 feet, but you'll be close to the ground in some area. Just go around stuff that you can't go over. Landmarks are easy, and it's beautiful flying, especially in the mornings. If you stay in Gunnison, you'll wnat to see the Black Canyon of the Gunnison, it's straight down for a mile, and much narrower than the grand canyon. Out of Gunnison, you'll have to go up to 12,000 for at least a few minutes. Monarch pass is 11,312 and I like a 1000 foot cushion. fortunately, Monarch is a fairly steep pass, and you can get up and down into Salida without too much time at altitude. From here, it's all down hill.

You can either stay down the Arkansas valley to Pueblo, or stay south through Wet Mountain pass, and then into Perry Stokes airport. It's pretty darn flat from there to home, so you'll see lots of scrub and grass.

I've flown this area quite a bit over the years, and it can be stunning. It can also be very dangerous. Use flight plans, and try to fly your plan. FF is spotty, non-existant in the mountains when you're down low. I really suggest you take one of those collapsable plastic cans, and use it four spare fuel on some of the legs. Carry emergeny stuff too.

The southern route to El Paso doesn't have much to see. Carlsbad Caverns is down there, and then not much until you get near Phoenix.
 
In fact, I just drew up an idea (rough airports, obviously, you'll pick better airports enroute, but just for the idea):

08MO-KOWP-KOUN-F05-KSNK-E11-KINK-HUP-5T6-SSO-KRYN-KLGF-TRM-HDF-KAJO

If you stick to 5500, you are fine, you'll have to navigate around mountains (no passes, just some stuff jutting up in the way) when nearing Tucson, but you'll be fine (I know 5500 is the wrong way for y'all out east, but out here, 5500 is only a few hundred AGL, so its legal, and you won't find many aircraft down there anyways).
 
Indeed there is, if you stay way south, and head down near Mexico, you can stay quite low.
Relatively

Well, low is a relative thing. I can tell you this, If you look at R-5107 on the ALB chart, you'll see that your two choices are around north at an altitude of 8500 minimum, or south through eastern NM all the way to El Paso.
The southern route is definetly lower terrain although it's still work to keep it near 5K

In fact, I just drew up an idea (rough airports, obviously, you'll pick better airports enroute, but just for the idea):

08MO-KOWP-KOUN-F05-KSNK-E11-KINK-HUP-5T6-SSO-KRYN-KLGF-TRM-HDF-KAJO

If you stick to 5500, you are fine, you'll have to navigate around mountains (no passes, just some stuff jutting up in the way) when nearing Tucson, but you'll be fine (I know 5500 is the wrong way for y'all out east, but out here, 5500 is only a few hundred AGL, so its legal, and you won't find many aircraft down there anyways).
Although going west you'll probably want to fly 6500.

Here's a first cut at a route without stops to keep you over the lower terrain. I blued out the big restricted areas that limit the choices. There is still some higher terrain between about Wink TX and Tuscon AZ but it is a better choice than going north of the big restricted area for altitude not scenery.

Although Nick got the departure airport correct, I did get the LA stop correct. Hey Nick they are going to stay with me (I hope) not Holbert :hairraise:

Joe
 

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Indeed there is, if you stay way south, and head down near Mexico, you can stay quite low. For example, from your farm:

Head southwest towards Sheppard Air Force Base, then continue towards Marfa. Then head west towards Las Cruces (staying south of the Restricted area), and then continue west towards KDUG, and then, after Tucson, you can start heading north a bit. Highest elevation should be around 4200ft, tops. That means you can get away with staying low most of the way.

Its tough to cross the Rockies low, but its doable. You gotta stay way south or way noth to do it.

If you make it through Las Cruces Diana, lunch is on me!!!(or dinner)
 
This is the first cross-country trip we made. There was only one airport above 5000 ft and we had a great time. With the exception of LAS and TUS, they were small airports. Here is the story (if you have the time). http://auntpeggy.home.att.net/CATrek/CATrek1.html
Map18.html

POU-RVL-UNI-I69-H96-PJY-SAR-M58-1H7-3O9-1H6-PNC-BGD-Q58-TUS-BWC-OKB-CIC-BIH-O26-LAS-E25-GNT-BGD-IH6-H96-RVL-UNI-POU
http://auntpeggy.home.att.net/CATrek/Map18.html
 
There is still some higher terrain between about Wink TX and Tuscon AZ but it is a better choice than going north of the big restricted area for altitude not scenery.

Wink, TX...drove through there on my way to Marfa. Blink and you'll miss it. Hometown of Roy Orbison. 3 storefronts a couple trailer houses and a football field is about it.
 
Wink, TX...drove through there on my way to Marfa. Blink and you'll miss it. Hometown of Roy Orbison. 3 storefronts a couple trailer houses and a football field is about it.
What more do you need?

It has to be at least as much fun at Blythe CA which I spent a day waiting for the thunderboomers to leave the mountains I needed to cross on my last leg. After a night in Blythe my minimum weather requirements went up from comfortable to probably survivable (well maybe a bit higher but not much).

Joe
 
Good for you, Diana. Great trip -- wish I could fly your wing.

Never flown out that way but landing on the El Mirage Dry Lake Bed is something I'd like to do one day. An RV-7 driver wrote it up. Link

Think of a thermal as a cylinder of warm, rising air standing on it's end. When you fly through it, you go up with the air. What I did last year flying through Wyoming high desert in the afternoon was this: as soon as my VSI showed climb, I'd go full power, put in 10 degree flaps and haul back on the stick to climbing speed 70-80. So I'd climb while I was in the thermal -- and gain a quick 2 or 3 thousand feet. Out of the thermal, I'd go back to cruise, where I'd gradually lose altitude as I flew through calm or sink air. But then I'd come to another thermal and climb another 3000 feet.

Of you could really try to be like a glider and when you fly into a thermal, slow down to 70 mph and circle at 45degree plus bank. You might be able to thermal in a Citabria with the monster thermals out west!

... Bill
 
Good for you, Diana. Great trip -- wish I could fly your wing.

Never flown out that way but landing on the El Mirage Dry Lake Bed is something I'd like to do one day. An RV-7 driver wrote it up. Link

Think of a thermal as a cylinder of warm, rising air standing on it's end. When you fly through it, you go up with the air. What I did last year flying through Wyoming high desert in the afternoon was this: as soon as my VSI showed climb, I'd go full power, put in 10 degree flaps and haul back on the stick to climbing speed 70-80. So I'd climb while I was in the thermal -- and gain a quick 2 or 3 thousand feet. Out of the thermal, I'd go back to cruise, where I'd gradually lose altitude as I flew through calm or sink air. But then I'd come to another thermal and climb another 3000 feet.

Of you could really try to be like a glider and when you fly into a thermal, slow down to 70 mph and circle at 45degree plus bank. You might be able to thermal in a Citabria with the monster thermals out west!

... Bill

dolphin flying works well with small aircraft in high terrain. if you really needed the altitude i suppose circling would be a good idea.
 
Wish I could help you out, Diana. When we flew from Iowa - Vegas in March, we were going for high and fast instead of low and slow. ha!

Our stops in Las Vegas, NM, Albuquerque, NM, Santa Fe, NM, and Grand Canyon Airport were all great, though. Friendly folks at each stop (although we only used self-serve fuel at SAF).

You'll have a blast! Definitely some great scenery best viewed from above in that area.

Good luck and have fun!
 
Well, low is a relative thing. I can tell you this
<snip>
I've flown this area quite a bit over the years, and it can be stunning.

Doc,

This is a GREAT post, in my opinion! I bookmarked it! I also just spent the last three hours with SkyVector.com, Google Earth, Wikipedia, and Airnav.com exploring your route and the places along the way, and "flying" Google Earth through the Gunnison-Pueblo route. Fantastic stuff. Thanks for sharing. I definitely want to try that trip sometime.

Oh, and I'd never even heard of the Black Canyon of the Gunnison. Fascinating!

One more thing--we went to Sedona (by car) and Monument Valley. Had no idea we were so close to the meteor crater! The kids and we would have loved to have seen that, and take a picture of us on the "corner in Winslow, AZ". Now, at least, we have a reason to go back!

Hey Diana--this is a cool trip, you're gonna have fun no matter where you decide to stop. Lots of good tips on this thread.
 
Wow, thanks everybody! I appreciate all your great suggestions! :yes: Doing the research on this trip should keep me busy and out of trouble for awhile. :D

Here's a first cut at a route without stops to keep you over the lower terrain. I blued out the big restricted areas that limit the choices. There is still some higher terrain between about Wink TX and Tuscon AZ but it is a better choice than going north of the big restricted area for altitude not scenery.
Joe, thanks for the route idea. :)

Although Nick got the departure airport correct, I did get the LA stop correct.
:)
 
Diana, all the terrific sights are along I 40. The Meteor Crater, the Cliff Dwellings just east of Flagstaff (Walnut Creek), Arcosanti (the planned community of Soleri is acutally little south), Canyon DuChelly, Goulding's Lodge, Zuni Blackrock, the North Rim, of Grand Canyon (Canyon Bar10 see the GC sectional), La Posada at Winslow (stay for an overnight!)....you can't get to these along I-10.

I would LOVE to have done turns around a point 1000 agl over Meteor Crater, landed in a TW at Zuni....

Never mind you might have to fly 9,500 for a short stretch. It's Worth IT. Goulding's is a "Gotta have Lunch" or overnight. Chuck Jones drew the roadrunner country ACCURATELY, and you can just seen the calvary coming around the butte.....
 
Diana, all the terrific sights are along I 40. The Meteor Crater, the Cliff Dwellings just east of Flagstaff (Walnut Creek), Arcosanti (the planned community of Soleri is acutally little south), Canyon DuChelly, Goulding's Lodge, Zuni Blackrock, the North Rim, of Grand Canyon (Canyon Bar10 see the GC sectional), La Posada at Winslow (stay for an overnight!)....you can't get to these along I-10.

Never mind you might have to fly 9,500 for a short stretch. It's Worth IT. Goulding's is a "Gotta have Lunch" or overnight. Chuck Jones drew the roadrunner country ACCURATELY, and you can just seen the calvary coming around the butte.....
It looks like I need to do more research to figure out where all these places are. And it looks like we will have to add them to our route. :)

I have a CD of Paul Horn and R. Carlos Nakai playing flutes inside the Canyon du Chelly...it's quite lovely to listen to...very relaxing.

Maybe we could go I40 going out and I10 coming back.

Tom now wants to add San Francisco, and seeing the Spruce Goose to our itinerary.
 
If you happen to need to take a more southerly route across California, based on my recent and very limited experience flying a 65-hp Champ there I'd highly recommend Borrego Valley, which has fairly pricey fuel but a very nice FBO (with the nicest bathrooms I've ever seen in an FBO) and a restaurant... and of course Brown Field Muni, which is a fairly busy Class D yet very "little guy" friendly. If you do go there be sure to taxi over to First Flight for fuel and tell Tom and the gang that I sent you...
;)

Chino was the closest I got to LA, and it is another friendly Class D with a nice diner-style restaurant (Flo's) as well as a first-class museum.
 
Our stops in Las Vegas, NM, Albuquerque, NM, Santa Fe, NM, and Grand Canyon Airport were all great, though.
What was your experience at Grand Canyon Airport? I think we may land at that one to get a glimpse of the Grand Canyon. Do they give helicopter tours from there? Anyone spend the night there?

If we have time coming back we will try to get to Monument Valley and the Meteor Crater.

I've been working on the trip the past few days and have a preliminary and ever-changing map. Additional suggestions will be appreciated. :)
 

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What was your experience at Grand Canyon Airport? I think we may land at that one to get a glimpse of the Grand Canyon. Do they give helicopter tours from there? Anyone spend the night there?

If we have time coming back we will try to get to Monument Valley and the Meteor Crater.

I've been working on the trip the past few days and have a preliminary and ever-changing map. Additional suggestions will be appreciated. :)


DHT is one of the smelliest places I've ever been. Just a warning.

If you are using KINW as a waypoint, you can't miss meteor crater.

Someone mentioned going to Page (KPGA), and I would highly recommend going there. If you fly north of KINW, thru the painted desert, which is one of the most desolate places I've ever visited, by the way, you will eventually get to Page. From page, head east, and you'll get to Monument Valley. Definitely a place you don't want to miss.
I flew low and slow out there a few years ago, and was in awe.

Have fun.
Let me know if you need me to mow the lawn.
 
What was your experience at Grand Canyon Airport? I think we may land at that one to get a glimpse of the Grand Canyon. Do they give helicopter tours from there? Anyone spend the night there?

KGCN was actually pretty cool. IIRC, the runways are oriented N/S'ish, which puts you on a long-final over the rim of the canyon. The scenery in the area is unbelievable! We got there after the afternoon tour 'rush'. There are a handful of aerial canyon tour operators running out of the airport in everything from Turbine Twin Otters to Bell-206's.

I'm not sure about overnight accommodations. The airport is in the middle of a heavily wooded pine forest. I'm really not sure where the nearest town was located - I don't remember seeing anything nearby.

There's not much in the way of a GA FBO there. The "FBO" is one of the aerial tour operators that just happens to sell fuel to transient a/c. VERY nice people there - just not much as far as lounge area, weather checking facilities, etc. We had landed there to let our stomachs settle after bouncing around in the late-afternoon turbulence, and we simply found a park-bench on the ramp and lounged there in the breeze for an hour or so.

If you're going to operate in that area, make sure you get a Grand Canyon VFR sectional. I borrowed Grant's and was a little worried when I realized it was last updated in 1996 but that's still the 'current' chart. There are a lot of VFR tour/traffic corridors that make crossing the canyon feasible.

Let me know if you have any other questions about the area.

EDIT: Added photos here and to our website (in my sig below).
 

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It's been a few years, but when I flew in to GCN they had the tour operators on left hand patten and everyone else on right hand pattern landing to the south. There were helo tour operators on the field and in town. The airport is close enough you can walk to town for lunch, which is a good way to stretch you legs. There's an IMAX theatre, too. When we were there it was showing a film tour of the canyon taken by ultralight and helicopter, pretty dramatic. Wouldn't know if it's still showing, though.

What was your experience at Grand Canyon Airport? I think we may land at that one to get a glimpse of the Grand Canyon. Do they give helicopter tours from there? Anyone spend the night there?

If we have time coming back we will try to get to Monument Valley and the Meteor Crater.

I've been working on the trip the past few days and have a preliminary and ever-changing map. Additional suggestions will be appreciated. :)
 
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What was your experience at Grand Canyon Airport? I think we may land at that one to get a glimpse of the Grand Canyon. Do they give helicopter tours from there? Anyone spend the night there?

If we have time coming back we will try to get to Monument Valley and the Meteor Crater.

I've been working on the trip the past few days and have a preliminary and ever-changing map. Additional suggestions will be appreciated. :)

Emma and I have stayed at GCN a couple of times, easy in and out. One of our trips was in May and the traffic was really light. There is a really nice fbo there. We had 1/2 inch of ice on our plane when we got ready to leave on our trip in March one year, they put it in a heated hangar and would not let us pay them for the help.(I gave the line guy a good tip though) We stayed in the national park which is about a 20 minute shuttle ride from the airport. The hotels at the rim are pretty pricey, but nothing cooler than a 2 minute walk to look into the canyon. I hope LRU stays on the map, would love to meet you guys, since I never seem to make it to Gastons.
 
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What was your experience at Grand Canyon Airport? I think we may land at that one to get a glimpse of the Grand Canyon. Do they give helicopter tours from there? Anyone spend the night there?

If we have time coming back we will try to get to Monument Valley and the Meteor Crater.

I've been working on the trip the past few days and have a preliminary and ever-changing map. Additional suggestions will be appreciated. :)
Diana,

If you want to stop in that area, I'd highly recommend stopping in Flagstaff, AZ (FLG) instead of GCN for a few reasons:

- No rental cars at GCN, and it's not easy to get anywhere from the airport other than by taxi.
- FLG is a great airport, probably my favorite right now. The FBO is amazing and really has a very nice atmosphere. They even have 2 cats! Say hi for me, they know me very well ever since that $600 deicing bill I had to pay ;)
- Flagstaff itself is well worth seeing. It's not your typical Arizona town. At 7000', you might even see a bit of snow on the mountains when you get there. There's a lot to see in the area, including quite a bit of native American settlements.
- It's 1 1/2 hours by car from Flagstaff to the Canyon, and the drive is _really_ worth it. You'll drive through the painted desert and you can see the Canyon rim from over 80 miles out on a clear day.

-Felix
 
- It's 1 1/2 hours by car from Flagstaff to the Canyon, and the drive is _really_ worth it. You'll drive through the painted desert and you can see the Canyon rim from over 80 miles out on a clear day.

If you make it to Flagstaff or GCN, include Sedona. A short hop and skip.
 
If you make it to Flagstaff or GCN, include Sedona. A short hop and skip.
Very true, and also a fascinating drive.

Sedona is a few thousand feet lower than Flagstaff, so in a 30 minute drive, you'll descent into a completely different climate. Make sure not to take I40 out of Flagstaff; instead, take the highway through the woods/mountains directly to Sedona.

-Felix
 
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