Flying the localizer...

TMetzinger said:
So for a transport category bizjet, where you have pilot and copilot attitude instruments, the third standby instrument meets it.

For smaller airplanes under 12.5 and operated under part 91 only, then you probably only have a single AI and the AC 91-75 provides for replacing the TC/T&B with an independently powered AI.
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Exactly.
 
OHHHH LIZZZZ
We have so much in common here!!!!
I was just about to post exactly the same adventures in my IR training world as you have..so thanks for saving me the typing!!!
Chasing those needles...dang how to get away from that habit...thanks to everyone for the replies...and thanks Liz for doing my posting for me!!! Next one is on me!
Bruce
 
A quick update: lesson last evening went MUCH better as far as the approaches. Flew the LOC BC 27L at PTL x 4, first time was a miss 1.5 miles out but the others were in the ball park. I tried out Cap'n Ron's method and while I'm a long way from mastering it, it's going a LONG way to weaning me off the GPS. The trick seems to be to use small bank angles and roll out IMMEDIATELY when the needle stops moving. Otherwise I found myself chasing the needle, as in the first approach.

We also confirmed that at low power settings, feet on the floor caused the airplane to go into a skidding right turn. Left rudder is ESSENTIAL and I have yet to get the feel of just how much. Apparently I've been flying that plane uncoordinated in the pattern, though I don't have many hours in it solo.

After the last approach at PTL we flew the published miss to a hold at SVM VORTAC. The 430 does a good job of showing the racetrack and the winds were light, making this an easy hold. I still have to hunt for the right button to ID the VOR though. On the return to VLL we were instructed to proceed direct OHEVU for the RNAV 9 approach. My CFII thought I was putting that into the GPS literally instead of the destination airport followed by loading the procedure, but we quickly straightened that out. ;) This time with a little left rudder I managed to stay on the FAC during the descent. Hooray!

Next we'll be doing some approaches. Then some more approaches. Then some more. Then someday we might even do some XC's. :D
 
azure said:
We also confirmed that at low power settings, feet on the floor caused the airplane to go into a skidding right turn. Left rudder is ESSENTIAL and I have yet to get the feel of just how much. Apparently I've been flying that plane uncoordinated in the pattern, though I don't have many hours in it solo.
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Perhaps the airplane is out of rig or has too much right trim? A well-rigged SE airplane will require right rudder on takeoff and climb, but not much -- if any -- left rudder on cruise and descent.
 
dmccormack said:
A well-rigged SE airplane will require right rudder on takeoff and climb, but not much -- if any -- left rudder on cruise and descent.
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All SE airplanes have this right turning tendency in a low power descent. Not as much as the left turning tendency in a high power climb, but the low power-right-turn tendency is just enough to cause a nagging slow turn to the right if left unchecked.
A well rigged SE airplane is rigged for normal cruise speed and power. All deviations from that basic configuration will cause some heading drift.
 
nosehair said:
All SE airplanes have this right turning tendency in a low power descent. Not as much as the left turning tendency in a high power climb, but the low power-right-turn tendency is just enough to cause a nagging slow turn to the right if left unchecked.
A well rigged SE airplane is rigged for normal cruise speed and power. All deviations from that basic configuration will cause some heading drift.
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Maybe a tiny bit -- but in this the right tendency seems excessive.

Worth a look, IMHO...
 
dmccormack said:
Perhaps the airplane is out of rig or has too much right trim? A well-rigged SE airplane will require right rudder on takeoff and climb, but not much -- if any -- left rudder on cruise and descent.
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Our other 172 is definitely out of rig, but I think this one is just trimmed for a 2500 rpm cruise setting or thereabouts. It doesn't require a lot of right rudder on the climbout and actually takes more left rudder in the descent. Otherwise, it flies just fine. :dunno:

Also, for future reference, I found that 2200 rpm was just about right for 90 kts level in that airplane, and my CFII opined that it was "a good approach setting". Of course, mileage may vary depending on conditions. And 2200 rpm is also the bottom of the green arc, eliciting the "carb heat or no carb heat" dilemma.
 
Hi Bruce!

Sounds like you're having as much fun as I am! :D Still hope we can meet up somewhere halfway between us when it's all over... :cheers:

DutchessFlier said:
OHHHH LIZZZZ
We have so much in common here!!!!
I was just about to post exactly the same adventures in my IR training world as you have..so thanks for saving me the typing!!!
Chasing those needles...dang how to get away from that habit...thanks to everyone for the replies...and thanks Liz for doing my posting for me!!! Next one is on me!
Bruce
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azure said:
Also, for future reference, I found that 2200 rpm was just about right for 90 kts level in that airplane, and my CFII opined that it was "a good approach setting".
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When I'm teaching instrument trainees, the very first thing we do is determine the power and pitch settings for the "Six Configurations" developed by Peter Dogan in his book "The Instrument Flight Training Manual." You might want to find a copy of that book and read up on that concept in Chapter 3 -- it may make a lot of things much easier.
And 2200 rpm is also the bottom of the green arc, eliciting the "carb heat or no carb heat" dilemma.
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With the Lycoming engine, you don't have to worry much about that unless you are getting carb ice symptoms. You can certainly use carb heat preemptively if you like, but if you do, make sure that on a missed approach, your right thumb is extended so you catch the carb heat knob as you're advancing the throttle to climb power.
 
I had similar problems when I was doing my IR training last winter.

One thing which helped me a lot was to:
  1. Find out in advance of the lesson which approaches I likely would be doing.
  2. Load them up in MS Flight Simulator. Fly them (setting weather to 100% fog).
  3. While practicing, concentrate soly on increasing my scan rate. I would give myself a "high score" for moving my eyes between instruments faster.

Free from the distraction of ATC yammering in my ear, my instructor trying to make things harder, the bumping of the plane, and constantly shifting wind directions as I descended (which they alway seem to do around here) I was able to improve quickly. This really helped me focus on all those other distractions next time I was in the plane.

Chris
 
I agree that instrument training is where Flight Sim can really shine. You're not getting all the physically disorienting sensations, but at this point in your training you know how to fly an airplane. You can really improve your scan as well as practicing instrument failures too!
 
Ron Levy said:
When I'm teaching instrument trainees, the very first thing we do is determine the power and pitch settings for the "Six Configurations" developed by Peter Dogan in his book "The Instrument Flight Training Manual." You might want to find a copy of that book and read up on that concept in Chapter 3 -- it may make a lot of things much easier.
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The first thing I did when getting ready for my IR training was to take each of our airplanes out and determine the power/pitch settings for level cruise and 500 fpm climbs, as well as the power setting for 500 fpm descent at cruise airspeed. An instrument rated friend advised me many moons ago to do that before starting the training. I first asked my CFII what settings would be the most useful to commit to memory, and those were the ones. At the time he didn't mention level at approach speed, so I'm adding it now.

I'll have to pick up Peter Dogan's book, thanks for the suggestion. (Trying to think of what the other two configurations might be?)

With the Lycoming engine, you don't have to worry much about that unless you are getting carb ice symptoms. You can certainly use carb heat preemptively if you like, but if you do, make sure that on a missed approach, your right thumb is extended so you catch the carb heat knob as you're advancing the throttle to climb power.
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Yup! Thanks.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can certainly use carb heat preemptively if you like, but if you do, make sure that on a missed approach, your right thumb is extended so you catch the carb heat knob as you're advancing the throttle to climb power.
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Palm open, everything forward. Don't forget mixture.

Joe
edit: and prop
 
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I also picked up Irvin Gleim's 'Instrument Flight Maneuvers' book...seems okay, any wisdom here about this resource?
 
azure said:
I'll have to pick up Peter Dogan's book, thanks for the suggestion. (Trying to think of what the other two configurations might be?)
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Dogan's Six are Climb, Cruise, Cruise Descent (cruise speed and -500 fpm), Approach Level, Approach Descent (approach speed and -500 fpm/-3 degrees gradient, depending on speed) and Nonprecision Descent (approach speed and 800 fpm/-5 degrees, depending on speed).
 
Ron Levy said:
Dogan's Six are Climb, Cruise, Cruise Descent (cruise speed and -500 fpm), Approach Level, Approach Descent (approach speed and -500 fpm/-3 degrees gradient, depending on speed) and Nonprecision Descent (approach speed and 800 fpm/-5 degrees, depending on speed).
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When I was getting my IA rating, I was flying a late model NAV II Cessna 172S, fuel injected. I was using Dogan's book along with my independent CFII; here's the numbers we determined in flight, and which I put on my custom checklist.

Standard Disclaimer: This is what worked for ME... verify yourself, use at your own risk.

[ROW][CELL] Flight Condition [/CELL][CELL] RPMs [/CELL][CELL] Flaps [/CELL][CELL] Pitch [/CELL][CELL] Resulting Speed (kts) [/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]Climb at Vy[/CELL][CELL]full[/CELL][CELL]0[/CELL][CELL]12° up[/CELL][CELL]74[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]Cruise Climb[/CELL][CELL]full[/CELL][CELL]0[/CELL][CELL]6° up[/CELL][CELL]100[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]Level, normal cruise[/CELL][CELL]2400[/CELL][CELL]0[/CELL][CELL]level[/CELL][CELL]112[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]Level, economy cruise[/CELL][CELL]2300[/CELL][CELL]0[/CELL][CELL]level[/CELL][CELL]106[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]Level flight, approach[/CELL][CELL]2200[/CELL][CELL]10[/CELL][CELL]level[/CELL][CELL]90[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]300 fpm constant speed descent[/CELL][CELL]1900[/CELL][CELL]10[/CELL][CELL]1-2° dn[/CELL][CELL]90[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]500 fpm CS descent (precision approach)[/CELL][CELL]1700[/CELL][CELL]10[/CELL][CELL]1-2° dn[/CELL][CELL]90[/CELL][/ROW][ROW][CELL]1000 fpm descent (non-precision approach)[/CELL][CELL]1400[/CELL][CELL]10[/CELL][CELL]1-2° dn[/CELL][CELL]90[/CELL][/ROW]
 
TangoWhiskey said:
When I was getting my IA rating, I was flying a late model NAV II Cessna 172S, fuel injected. I was using Dogan's book along with my independent CFII; here's the numbers we determined in flight, and which I put on my custom checklist.
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While I agree with the PAC concept, everyone should realize that the pitch attitude for climb varies considerably with loading and density altitude. If you pitch up 12 degrees in a fully loaded 172 on a hot day you'll end up a lot slower than your table shows. IOW for a climb, you should pitch for airspeed not attitude.
 
gismo said:
While I agree with the PAC concept, everyone should realize that the pitch attitude for climb varies considerably with loading and density altitude. If you pitch up 12 degrees in a fully loaded 172 on a hot day you'll end up a lot slower than your table shows. IOW for a climb, you should pitch for airspeed not attitude.
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Agreed; it's just an initial target to pitch to at the 800' MSL airports I was flying from, not a 'must hold' attitude or for all airports. I'd adjust in Denver or heavily loaded, for example... Think of the pitch attitude target as like what a flight director would command when you hit the Go Around button--an initial target that you know produces a certain result in a specific configuration. Gotta keep your scan going and adjust as needed.
 
Ron Levy said:
Dogan's Six are Climb, Cruise, Cruise Descent (cruise speed and -500 fpm), Approach Level, Approach Descent (approach speed and -500 fpm/-3 degrees gradient, depending on speed) and Nonprecision Descent (approach speed and 800 fpm/-5 degrees, depending on speed).
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Thanks Ron.

We started shooting ILS's last night so added another configuration: for approach descent, 2000 rpm (after trimmed for 90 kts at approach level). Tweak as needed.

We did the ILS 9R @ PTK x 5, and only on the last one did I manage to hold it together down to the last 200 feet or so above DH. After 14.5 hours under the hood since starting IR training, I'm starting to feel as if I'm overloaded and stuff that I learned at the beginning is starting to evaporate. Not sure if I need a break, or just to train more and harder.
 
Liz, your experience sounds a lot like mine; I'd suggest that you just keep on plugging, and trust your instructor to tell you if you have a problem. I bet you'll find it becoming more and more natural. The most important concept I got was that, if I am not doing something, I'm probably missing something- essentially, scan and strike.

Good fun!
 
azure said:
After 14.5 hours under the hood since starting IR training, I'm starting to feel as if I'm overloaded and stuff that I learned at the beginning is starting to evaporate. Not sure if I need a break, or just to train more and harder.
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I think you'll find that the basics aren't "evaporating" but rather you are beginning to delegate your basic instrument skills (scan and attitude) to your subconscious (a good thing) but your subconscious isn't really used to dealing with that. This is really a positive step in the learning process and you can smooth the transition by forcing yourself to devote a little of your mental bandwidth to the basics even though you can usually "get by" with less.

I think it's also quite normal to feel overloaded at this point, especially if your instructor is doing their job well. They should be pushing you to fly with a slight mental overload at least half of the time now. AFaIK, most people actually learn faster that way and in any case it's good preparation for the inevitable situations you will encounter that tax your mental bandwidth. The key things you should get from this are the ability to properly prioritize and to alternate your focus between the details and the big picture. Chances are that up to now you've been able to concentrate on mostly detail leaving the overall flight management to your CFII so this new requirement probably feels like a major stumbling block.

One technique is to deliberately adjust priorities to match the different phases of flight. For instance when preparing for an approach you can devote a much smaller portion of your bandwidth to flying the plane and let the plane wander off heading a bit more than you might otherwise allow and give some thought to the big picture stuff (what should I expect to see if I break out, what is the basic pattern of the approach, where will I go next if I miss, etc). Then as you transition to the actual approach you shift more and more concentration on just flying the plane with reference to the instruments.
 
I'd agree with Lance's points.

At this point, if you don't feel overloaded, then your instructor probably isn't giving you a very good workout. Don't worry, it'll start to click around the time you hit 40 hours (at least it did for me, your mileage my vary slightly). But you're doing well. It sounds like you're going at this hard, which in my opinion is the way to do it. Don't let yourself get discouraged! There are few things as cool as the first time you're in hard IMC, and after the first 30 minutes or so if it (once your palms stop sweating) you say to yourself "Hey, this is pretty cool," then shoot the ILS (please not to minimums your first time for real).

Don't worry, you're on your way to getting there!
 
Four comments.

#1. Don't worry, it will come together eventually.

#2. Does your airplane have rudder trim, and are you using it? It helps substantially to have the plane trimmed correctly (in both pitch and yaw) while flying IMC.

#3. For me, instrument flying is all about the DG. If you can hold a heading within +/- 1 degree, everything else will fall into place. You might want to take some extra practice doing this in cruise flight.

#4. Practice tracking the localizer (and glideslope) from as far away it in from as far away as it can be received. This will provide a ton more time on the localizer than if you are vectored onto the localizer just a few miles outside the IAF.

Good luck!



azure said:
Sorry for the length of this post, I'm mostly thinking aloud and am not sure how much of this makes sense...
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nyoung said:
Four comments.

#1. Don't worry, it will come together eventually.

#2. Does your airplane have rudder trim, and are you using it? It helps substantially to have the plane trimmed correctly (in both pitch and yaw) while flying IMC.

#3. For me, instrument flying is all about the DG. If you can hold a heading within +/- 1 degree, everything else will fall into place. You might want to take some extra practice doing this in cruise flight.

#4. Practice tracking the localizer (and glideslope) from as far away it in from as far away as it can be received. This will provide a ton more time on the localizer than if you are vectored onto the localizer just a few miles outside the IAF.

Good luck!
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Trouble with #4 is that the localizer becomes very insensitive to lateral error when you are outside the OM so the practice isn't as tough. You can
compensate by maintaining tighter tolerance (smaller deflections) but the needle just doesn't move as fast for the same course error.

For me, the key is small corrections by whatever method works for you. On a DG or HSI with a bug, limiting heading changes to a fraction of the bug with is one way, but the easiest is to roll into a small (5 degree or less) bank and roll back out almost as soon as you get into the bank. If you roll out immediately you get about one degree of heading change and for each second in the bank you get another degree. Three degrees of heading change is the most you should ever need once you are inside the OM and one is plenty when you're getting close to DH. If you find that your first correction didn't stop the needle from moving, just do it again.
 
gismo said:
For me, the key is small corrections by whatever method works for you. On a DG or HSI with a bug, limiting heading changes to a fraction of the bug with is one way, but the easiest is to roll into a small (5 degree or less) bank and roll back out almost as soon as you get into the bank. If you roll out immediately you get about one degree of heading change and for each second in the bank you get another degree. Three degrees of heading change is the most you should ever need once you are inside the OM and one is plenty when you're getting close to DH. If you find that your first correction didn't stop the needle from moving, just do it again.
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True, but I find it easier to manage 1-2 degree corrections with rudder, since I find it very difficult to bank 1 or 2 degrees.

:dunno:
 
The problem with trying to use the rudder for such small corrections is that when you let go of the rudder, the airplane goes back the other way. You have to rudder past the heading and then let the plane realign itself with the air when you let go. All in all, it's pretty ugly. Very small banks (3-5 degrees) work just fine for 2-degree heading changes as long as the roll-in and roll-out are coordinated.
 
Ron Levy said:
The problem with trying to use the rudder for such small corrections is that when you let go of the rudder, the airplane goes back the other way. You have to rudder past the heading and then let the plane realign itself with the air when you let go. All in all, it's pretty ugly. Very small banks (3-5 degrees) work just fine for 2-degree heading changes as long as the roll-in and roll-out are coordinated.
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Different strokes, I suppose, but I flew a couple of LPV approaches last night under the hood. Once established (despite some pretty bumpy air), I kept the needles centered down to the MAP (we were contrary the VFR traffic at the towered field).

Never much moe than 3 degrees off DTK and made all corrections with slight rudder pressure.
 
dmccormack said:
Different strokes, I suppose, but I flew a couple of LPV approaches last night under the hood. Once established (despite some pretty bumpy air), I kept the needles centered down to the MAP (we were contrary the VFR traffic at the towered field).

Never much moe than 3 degrees off DTK and made all corrections with slight rudder pressure.
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Everybody's different, but I have more success training folks to used coordinated control application. If nothing else, it sloshes the examiner's lunch less, and a happy examiner is always an easier examiner.
 
Ron Levy said:
Everybody's different, but I have more success training folks to used coordinated control application. If nothing else, it sloshes the examiner's lunch less, and a happy examiner is always an easier examiner.
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I'm all for coordinated flight (even I can feel it after a flight with a poorly coordinated flier).

But slight rudder pressure imposes such small yawing motions they are barely imperceptible, IMHO. I think the discipline of reducing control inputs to 1-2 degree corrections by rudder force a more precise flight path.

I used to correct with bank -- and never seemed able to get the level or precision I later found with rudder pressure.
 
I've never been instructed, nor even thought, to try to change small corrections with rudder. Always used bank. I'm not sure I see the benefit to using rudder, but that's me. And I do very minute corrections to keep those needles centerd while coming down the pike at 150 heading towards mins.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've never been instructed, nor even thought, to try to change small corrections with rudder. Always used bank. I'm not sure I see the benefit to using rudder, but that's me. And I do very minute corrections to keep those needles centerd while coming down the pike at 150 heading towards mins.
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It's nearly impossible to bank 1 or 2 degrees (especially on a bumpy approach). Rudder correction allows precise heading adjustments with no perception of yaw (it's not like you're skidding all over the sky).

Try it! You might like it! :yesnod:
 
Hi Liz Hi All!!!
wow I wonder what 150 kts feels like?

I am just gonna sit here and keep reading all this because I don't have to reinvent the wheel here...I was getting a bit overloaded yesterday for a number of reasons...flew again today noontime 2.5 hours in the plane...we did our work, and my CFI said lets have some fun...take off the foggles and climb and maintain 4000 at a 500 fpm. climb, and he got an IFR clearance vectoring us to the ILS 6 approach at KPOU. We were about 45 miles to the northwest. I knew the ceilings were about 2900...into the IMC we went. First time I flew the plane in it, and it was awesome..I found it alot easier to work with the plane without those freakin foggles. We broke out on top at about 4050 ft and skimmed along the tops between 2 layers...sun was shining and it was so beautiful! Now I know what all the hard work is for. He did the radio work and had me fly the approach back into the IMC, intercept the glideslope and land the plane. I felt like I had accomplished something!
SO LIZ...DO THE SAME..have your instructor take you into actual and shoot the approach...it will make you feel so good!
Let me know how it goes

Bruce

BTW-We had a fatal emergency at KPOU yesterday, and I was holding at rwy 6 for departure at the time, and got involved in the SAR...sad day and very very intense feelings and thoughts.
 
dmccormack said:
True, but I find it easier to manage 1-2 degree corrections with rudder, since I find it very difficult to bank 1 or 2 degrees.

:dunno:
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You don't need to hold the bank at 1-2 degrees, go right to 5 degrees and then roll right back out and you'll get a 1-2 degree heading change. One of the neat things about this technique is that with a little practice you can do it with hardly more than a glace at the AI and it also works well on partial panel.
 
dmccormack said:
It's nearly impossible to bank 1 or 2 degrees (especially on a bumpy approach). Rudder correction allows precise heading adjustments with no perception of yaw (it's not like you're skidding all over the sky).

Try it! You might like it! :yesnod:
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Dan, I have tried it and (at least in my airplane) it feels sloppy (especially to those in the rear). Some airplanes are pretty unstable in yaw and exciting that axis is just asking for someone to decorate the upholstery with their lunch. And I beg to differ WRT rudder turns not skidding, that's exactly what you are doing.
 
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Thx Troy...the article basically covers it...it is still getting press. The controller asked me and the 172 ahead of me on the txwy at the departure end of 06 to look for the crash site. The 172 was vectored east and south at 1500. I was vectored west then south to east at 2000. The 172 ahead had a passenger on a intro to flying flight..can you imagine what he was thinking! I was going up to do some airwork. We did our best looking, then broke off after the Coast Guard and State Police chopper got in the mix. I headed into the practice area, but didn't have it in me to do any work and headed back home. We talked alot about it at the FBO...controller did a great job, he was shaken but very professional. It's an image I won't forget..condolences to the family and friends of the pilot...my thoughts for a full recovery of the passenger as well.
 
gismo said:
Dan, I have tried it and (at least in my airplane) it feels sloppy (especially to those in the rear). Some airplanes are pretty unstable in yaw and exciting that axis is just asking for someone to decorate the upholstery with their lunch. And I beg to differ WRT rudder turns not skidding, that's exactly what you are doing.
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Maybe my butt's not sensitive enough to feel a 1 degree heading course.

:dunno:

I actually learned to use the rudder correction in an A36.

Caveat -- I'm not advocating rudder-only for more than 3 degrees off course. But once established and flying the approach (especially with DTK and TRK displayed on a GPS) corrections should be small. When DTK shows 031 and TRK is 040, then bank slightly (4 degrees or so) to the desired track. When the difference is 1 or 2 degrees, rudder-only works fine and is not perceived when done gently.
 
dmccormack said:
It's nearly impossible to bank 1 or 2 degrees (especially on a bumpy approach). Rudder correction allows precise heading adjustments with no perception of yaw (it's not like you're skidding all over the sky).

Try it! You might like it! :yesnod:
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Well, having shot ILSs through various sorts of storms and other excessive bumps and still managed to keep the needles centered without what feels like much effort (although I'll admit to slowing down to 140 for those since I don't want to exceed my 150 gear speed in a gust), I'm not sure I see the point. :dunno:

It seems like sloppy technique and a crutch to me, but that's just my perception. What Lance said is what I do - bank ~5 degrees for a bit (standard rate turns end up being closer to 25-30 degrees in the Aztec anyway), and come back. That's worked fine for me even in 172s and Archers. I really don't have to think about it anymore, it's just automatic.
 
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