Flying Over Water on Piston Single Aircraft?

cocolos

cocolos

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cocolos
What are the rules on flying over water in a single? I read somewhere that you should always fly within gliding distance to land but not sure if that was in the FAR or not.
 
Unless you are flying paying passengers (Commercial) there is no FAR or ICAO rules for flying single engine over water different than for multiengine. If flying beyond gliding distance life jackets and raft are required. If flying beyond VHF radio coverage HF radio is required. Some form of oceanic navigation equipment such as GPS, INS or ADF is also required.

José
 
91.509... Flights more than 50 nm from shore require flotation device for all pax. Further, additional requirements apply.
 
cocolos said:
What are the rules on flying over water in a single? I read somewhere that you should always fly within gliding distance to land but not sure if that was in the FAR or not.
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I believe in California they have outlawed flying over water.:yes::eek::D
 
The law if fine and dandy,

Realistic rules,

know your wx (air and sea), floatation device, epirb is a good call if its going to be a long haul.
 
LDJones said:
91.509... Flights more than 50 nm from shore require flotation device for all pax. Further, additional requirements apply.
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There is NO legal requirement for life jackets or rafts on part 91 flights in propeller driven airplanes under 12,500 lbs MGW. The applicability of 91.509 is described in 91.501.
 
gismo said:
There is NO legal requirement for life jackets or rafts on part 91 flights in propeller driven airplanes under 12,500 lbs MGW. The applicability of 91.509 is described in 91.501.
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Thanks!!
 
gismo said:
There is NO legal requirement for life jackets or rafts on part 91 flights in propeller driven airplanes under 12,500 lbs MGW. The applicability of 91.509 is described in 91.501.
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True, other than peace of mind. They were relatively cheap so added them to our Mooney.
 
LDJones said:
91.509... Flights more than 50 nm from shore require flotation device for all pax. Further, additional requirements apply.
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91.509 only applies to large (over 12,500 lb MGW) aircraft and turbine-powered multiengine planes. OP asked about piston singles. For that case, 91.205 covers it, and says:
(12) If the aircraft is operated for hire over water and beyond power-off gliding distance from shore, approved flotation gear readily available to each occupant and, unless the aircraft is operating under part 121 of this subchapter, at least one pyrotechnic signaling device. As used in this section, "shore" means that area of the land adjacent to the water which is above the high water mark and excludes land areas which are intermittently under water.
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...and that's it. So, for a private flight in a light single, it's entirely up to the PIC (and whatever the passengers will agree to before getting in the plane).
 
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cocolos said:
I believe that's for hire right?
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No. 91.509 is in Subpart F of Part 91, and that subpart applies to "large airplanes of U.S. registry, turbojet-powered multiengine civil airplanes of U.S. registry, and fractional ownership program aircraft of U.S. registry that are operating under subpart K of this part in operations not involving common carriage."
 
just try floating in a life jacket in Lake Michigan 8 out of 12 months of year . . .
 
We don't fly over water or mountains at night, if water surface temperature is below 65F and we fly as high as we can go. Top off fuel and oil and watch engine monitor closely. Stay on flight following. Four crossings of Lake Michigan this summer were great.
 
comanchepilot said:
just try floating in a life jacket in Lake Michigan 8 out of 12 months of year . . .
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Or the Northern Pacific or Northern Atlantic pretty much all year. Hypothermia will get you before drowning will. A life jacket in itself doesn't buy you much.
 
There's two schools of thought on this:

No: the survival risks are too high if something happens.

Yes: the engine doesn't care where you fly and I bet that you have flown in situations where your survival prospects are low already. Think low IFR, over large cities, moonless nights, etc.

There is no right answer. Maybe a raft, maybe a second engine are called for. Do you feel lucky?
 
N801BH said:
..

Maybe not you.... but.. Search and recovery crews get to bring the body home for the next of kin.:sad::(
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Yeah, now they are stuck with a ten grand funeral bill.
 
comanchepilot said:
just try floating in a life jacket in Lake Michigan 8 out of 12 months of year . . .
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Yep. I'd fly over the Gulf of Mexico pretty much any time of year.
Over the Great Lakes pretty much no time of the year.
 
cocolos said:
What are the rules on flying over water in a single? I read somewhere that you should always fly within gliding distance to land but not sure if that was in the FAR or not.
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No rules for a private flight except a PFD for each soul onboard. I make my living at sea, my requirements are considerably higher as water temperature falls below 80 degrees F. The rules for mariners used to be above fourty degrees latitude you had to have a survival suit for all the crew, now it's above 20 degrees from what I understand.

BTW, for anyone contemplating a survival suit, get the one with the three finger mitten things instead of the 5 finger gloves. The gloves can be difficult to get in and aren't nearly as warm.
 
Part 91, pretty much do whatever you want.

Back when I flew singles, I had no issues flying over water. I follow the "trust your engine" mentlaity. Plus, to me, there is a much bigger risk in flying over mountainous terrain (especially in the Rockies) where mountain waves and the like can get you.

There's a big more to it, though. Crossing the Gulf is a long ways. So is crossing the North Atlantic. On those, your exposure time is a lot higher than, say, crossing the Long Island Sound (which many piston singles do in Winter) or Lake Michigan.

As with so much else in aviation, it's a personal choice of what you're willing to risk.
 
Henning said:
No rules for a private flight except a PFD for each soul onboard.
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That might be your rule but it's not the FAA's. OTOH, in a floatplane PFDs are required be boating laws IIRC.
 
The point I was making is that if the pilot/passengers were already dead, why bring them back and incur funeral expenses.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The point I was making is that if the pilot/passengers were already dead, why bring them back and incur funeral expenses.
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It is called "closure" for the family.....Imagine if the military left all the dead soldiers on a battlefield somewhere to save money... :nonod::nonod:
 
N801BH said:
It is called "closure" for the family.....Imagine if the military left all the dead soldiers on a battlefield somewhere to save money... :nonod::nonod:
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Numerous Armies have done that throughout history, usually because they were pushed from the field, but economics certainly factored in as well at times.

Go see how many Civil War cemeteries have folks who were re-inturned after being dug up from someone's front lawn, where the actual battle took place, for example.
 
denverpilot said:
Numerous Armies have done that throughout history, usually because they were pushed from the field, but economics certainly factored in as well at times.

Go see how many Civil War cemeteries have folks who were re-inturned after being dug up from someone's front lawn, where the actual battle took place, for example.
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Years ago that probably was the case....Nowadays the military will spend unlimited amounts of money to retrieve a fallen soldier...


Good point though ... I will bring that up to my CAP buddies so they can go out on a search, and if they find a crashed plane that is unsurvivable they just head home and call it good enough.. The authorities will just leave the remains where they lay........

Like that is really gonna happen.:no::no::nono:
 
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N801BH said:
It is called "closure" for the family.....Imagine if the military left all the dead soldiers on a battlefield somewhere to save money... :nonod::nonod:
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My whole family is military. Grandpa is in Normandy someplace. Or maybe the Bering sea. Who knows. I'm okay with it. I have closure.
 
N801BH said:
It is called "closure" for the family.....Imagine if the military left all the dead soldiers on a battlefield somewhere to save money... :nonod::nonod:
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That is the normal way of dealing with battlefield death, hence all the battlefield graveyards littering the world.
 
I flew my Comanche to Grand Caymen Islands from Key West, FL. I had flotation for each pax and that was it. It less than 2 hr flight one way and we flew over Cuba which was kind of neat.

I would do the same trip in a Cherokee that I knew and trusted. you have to watch the trade winds which are usually north at 20 knots. If you can get them down to 10-12 that would help. It is 327 knots with direct head wind so at 110 knots you should be able to land with enough gas to turn around the glide back to Cuba if you had too.

The water temps of 80 d F makes it easy if you have to set it down along side of a ship or cruiser for emergency.

when we went everyone in the group of 13 planes were singles except for one baron. The slowest plane was a Cardinal followed by a Cherokee 6/260. I take that back the last plane to arrive was a Diamond DA-140 but I think Henning was farting around as it had a new G1000 panel in it about 4 years ago.
 
I accept the risk of flying a single out of an urban airport with no good place to put down in case of an engine out. Even at night. An engine out at night in many parts of Michigan would likely be fatal in my airplane. I guess I don't see flying over open water for 15 minutes once or twice a year to be adding that much to my total risk. If I do everything I can to maintain my engine well, and it decides to quit on me out of glide distance to shore or over a black hole at night, it means it was my time to leave this Earth. I wouldn't do it every day, or every week, and I wouldn't do an ocean crossing. I don't dismiss the risk, but as long as it is a small fraction of the rest of my exposure time to likely injury or death in case of engine out, I guess I accept it.
 
And Liz gets it right!
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
I flew my Comanche to Grand Caymen Islands from Key West, FL. I had flotation for each pax and that was it. It less than 2 hr flight one way and we flew over Cuba which was kind of neat.

I would do the same trip in a Cherokee that I knew and trusted. you have to watch the trade winds which are usually north at 20 knots. If you can get them down to 10-12 that would help. It is 327 knots with direct head wind so at 110 knots you should be able to land with enough gas to turn around the glide back to Cuba if you had too.

The water temps of 80 d F makes it easy if you have to set it down along side of a ship or cruiser for emergency.

when we went everyone in the group of 13 planes were singles except for one baron. The slowest plane was a Cardinal followed by a Cherokee 6/260. I take that back the last plane to arrive was a Diamond DA-140 but I think Henning was farting around as it had a new G1000 panel in it about 4 years ago.
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Nope, the DA 40 was just that slow. BTW, Tradewinds are out of the East at 18-22 typically.
 
Just a note regarding flying over water at night and in some conditions during the day (regardless of whether it's a single or a twin) is that there might be no distinguishable horizon. As a VFR-only pilot I won't cross Lake Michigan in my twin at night unless I'm far enough south that I can keep a visual with the lights on the coast all the way around. When I give tours to my friends/family to downtown Chicago, I intentionally avoid looking out over the lake at night; I'm sure it's not even close to real IMC, but it can be disorienting if you look out over the darken void and aren't constantly scanning the instruments.
 
Henning said:
Nope, the DA 40 was just that slow. BTW, Tradewinds are out of the East at 18-22 typically.
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Maybe I shouldn't use trade winds, but we had almost 20 knots direct head wind that day going south. :)

Hope we do it again one day soon.
 
Apache123 said:
Just a note regarding flying over water at night and in some conditions during the day (regardless of whether it's a single or a twin) is that there might be no distinguishable horizon. As a VFR-only pilot I won't cross Lake Michigan in my twin at night unless I'm far enough south that I can keep a visual with the lights on the coast all the way around. When I give tours to my friends/family to downtown Chicago, I intentionally avoid looking out over the lake at night; I'm sure it's not even close to real IMC, but it can be disorienting if you look out over the darken void and aren't constantly scanning the instruments.
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My brother and I were helping a friend move his new to him plane to Utah and we crossed lake Powell just past sunset and in the time- space of about 10-20 minutes it got so dark in the desert that we could not see anything. No horizon, no lights on the ground, no sky..... infinite black with a few tiny lights off but nothing to give any reference. We are both IFR pilots and within 30 minutes of our destination or we wouldn't even have considered flying at night in the dessert. It was as if someone turned off the switch. WE used our cell phone lights to find our flashlights to get the charts and turn around to land at Paige, AZ. That was scary.
 
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