Flying Multi-Engine On A Limited Basis

FlyingTiger

FlyingTiger

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FlyingTiger
The thread about what aircraft to buy for a 5 child family got me thinking. My situation is a little different in that I have 4 kids and my FBO has an Aztec F so renting is a viable option for those rare instances when the entire family is going to fly somewhere. However, the glaring problem is staying current multi-engine wise. At $300 an hour, just can't see making that my primary so if I am flying most of my time in a single engine, how many hours am I going to need to put in the Aztec to stay current/safe for those occasional flights? Does anyone do this now and how is it working out?
 
Assuming that you will fly other airplanes enough to stay instrument current and comfortable, I would say 10-15 hours per year with an instructor in the Aztec would be OK. The biggest thing to worry about of course is engine out and instrument procedures, so an hour or so per month of training should keep you safe. Although, I would probably limit myself to pretty decent weather in the twin, not strictly VFR, but with limited time I wouldn't want to head off into a 200- 1/2 weather. :D
 
Depends, if you limit yourself to VFR it's really not a big issue, even IFR the risk factor doesn't change a lot. You can help yourself by doing some OEI practice on regular flights.
 
The plan would be VFR only flights with the family. Too many NTSB reports with low time multi-engine pilots in IMC.
 
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My general opinion is that if you're not going to fly a twin regularly, don't do it at all. You'll be less safe if an engine does fail. Unfortunately if you have a 5-person family, to fly everyone you pretty much need a twin. A Malibu will also work, but that's even more expensive.

That said, an Aztec is about as easy of a plane to fly as they come. So long as you adhere to personal minimums that are basically VFR, then I think you'll probably be ok. You should probably allocate time before family flights with an instructor if you're only talking about 10-15 hours a year.

I have almost 1,000 hours in the Aztec I used to own. They're great airplanes, wonderfully sized for a family of 5, and very docile. The only problem is they're slow.
 
Henning said:
Depends, if you limit yourself to VFR it's really not a big issue, even IFR the risk factor doesn't change a lot. You can help yourself by doing some OEI practice on regular flights.
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The family probably won't appreciate OEI practice.
 
I'm interested to see what people have to say. I have a friend with a twin, and he said I could use it. Probably wouldn't be enough to stay as proficient as I'd like. I'll probably limit it to VFR or IFR to bust through a high cloud layer.
 
FlyingTiger said:
The plan would be VFR only flights with the family. To many NTSB reports with low time multi-engine pilots in IFR for my liking.
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Get good initial training, fly every third approach (VFR or IFR) with one zero thrusted, let Aux fuel tanks run dry in cruise....
 
rbridges said:
I'm interested to see what people have to say. I have a friend with a twin, and he said I could use it. Probably wouldn't be enough to stay as proficient as I'd like. I'll probably limit it to VFR or IFR to bust through a high cloud layer.
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Not all twins are created equal. Aztec, Aerostar, 421?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My general opinion is that if you're not going to fly a twin regularly, don't do it at all. You'll be less safe if an engine does fail. Unfortunately if you have a 5-person family, to fly everyone you pretty much need a twin. A Malibu will also work, but that's even more expensive.

That said, an Aztec is about as easy of a plane to fly as they come. So long as you adhere to personal minimums that are basically VFR, then I think you'll probably be ok. You should probably allocate time before family flights with an instructor if you're only talking about 10-15 hours a year.

I have almost 1,000 hours in the Aztec I used to own. They're great airplanes, wonderfully sized for a family of 5, and very docile. The only problem is they're slow.
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Thanks for the input Ted (and everyone else). That would mean after getting signed-off, once a month flight with an instructor plus 3-5 flights a year with the family. That would make much more sense then buying for me. btw, Family is actually 6 with the wife. I wouldn't think that would change your opinion of using an Aztec - whole family probably weights 550-575lbs.

I love the fact we could potentially travel to Ocean City NJ in less then an hour from NE PA :yes:
 
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The Aztec would fit the mission,as long as you keep up on the training,and don't get complacent.
 
Remember that "current" is not the same thing as "proficient."

Bob Gardner
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My general opinion is that if you're not going to fly a twin regularly, don't do it at all.
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I'm with Ted. Either make it your primary plane and fly it at least 75 hours a year, or stick with singles. And your FBO isn't likely to let you fly their Aztec without a CFI aboard if you only fly it 10-15 hours a year unless you get a couple of hours of recurrent training the day before you take it -- with no guarantees until they see how you do on the training day. That said, your later post saying you have 1000 hours of Aztec time changes things a lot -- that might sell with the FBO as long as you do regular recurrent training.

OTOH, for your parents+4 situation, there are plenty of good PA32's and C-206's around which can haul your load while you stay really proficient in what you fly.
 
Henning said:
"Honey, either you get a job as a stripper so I can afford to fly more, or you need to deal with this some.";)
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Your advice today is particularly bad.
 
FlyingTiger said:
btw, Family is actually 6 with the wife. I wouldn't think that would change your opinion of using an Aztec - whole family probably weights 550-575lbs.
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Nope, no change in opinion. The Aztec will handle that fine and well under gross.
 
Hmmm if a man's wife was a stripper would said man need to keep singles on hand?
 
For a while I was maintaining minimum currency every 2 months in a Seminole, it helps if you go through the POH often especially emergency checklists, "chair fly" the OEI procedures, etc. Basically keeping the memorization items in your mind fresh. However, I think you should do this even if you fly often as most the time it flies the same as a single.
 
proficiency is key more so than currency. in my own flying world i like to fly every week (weather flying, crosscountry, night, not practice area) to stay proficient. the less frequent i fly the higher my minimums get. in other words and imho, currency means nothing other than being legal to fly.
 
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"….how many hours am I going to need to put in the Aztec to stay current/safe for those occasional flights? Does anyone do this now and how is it working out?"

Some of you seem to be ignoring the "safe" part put right after current in the latter part of the op just so you can stand on your soap box and lecture. Similar thing happened in the thread where I mentioned the pilot was a neurosurgeon and the next thing I know people are lecturing me about how that doesn't necessarily make him a good pilot completely missing the point I was making about how even highly intelligent people can make bad decisions, especially when running on the emotion of wanting to get home. I really enjoy this site and what many of you bring to the table experience wise, but maybe read a little more carefully before posting.
 
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FlyingTiger said:
I really enjoy this site and what many of you bring to the table experience wise, but maybe read a little more carefully before posting.
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I's been here 'bout 7 years longer than you, and I tell you now: that ain't happening. :mad2:
 
Back on topic, it sounds like you have a reasonable plan. If you were talking about many other twins, I'd be more wary. But I put many people in the left seat of the Aztec, and only one tried to crash it. That was because he didn't know how to listen to direction and didn't understand use of trim, plus the fact that you don't yank a plane at gross off the ground, especially on a hot day.

Now he's flying for the regionals. This can't possibly go wrong... :yikes:
 
If a twin does not feel like an old shoe when you put it on, you are not flying it enough. I own an Aztec and have a share of a Twin Comanche. I fly one of them at least once a week for currency and put myself through a flight review single engine scenario every 2-3 months. Your plan might work if you fly enough initially to get very comfortable with the Aztec and the fly with a CFI for proficiency every couple of months and a good workout before a family trip.
 
The deal is to get through your first 100hrs in as quickly as you can. If you can get there in 2 years, you're on an ok track, not great, but ok. There is a reason that the insurance basically bottoms out your premium with 100hrs in Type. Your initial training in it counts for a lot and you can do proficiency drills on random flights.
 
Henning said:
The deal is to get through your first 100hrs in as quickly as you can. If you can get there in 2 years, you're on an ok track, not great, but ok. There is a reason that the insurance basically bottoms out your premium with 100hrs in Type. Your initial training in it counts for a lot and you can do proficiency drills on random flights.
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My insurance has gotten lower every year. 2000 hours later, it's not bottomed out.
 
To the OP: I have been reading this thread and have decided to weigh in a little. The biggest unknown is your definition of safe. Very few pilots of light twins (IMO) are really proficient in all segments of flight in a light twin.
You may be reasonably proficient in some of the segments. For example I would hope any multi pilot could from while en route put a twin down safely in VFR with one engine out. This can certainly be practiced reasonably safely. You might need to be sure you can do the VFR approach with very little chance of needing a go around. If you have got that down pat then in that particular segment I would think you could consider yourself proficient and "safe" as compared to flying a single engine. Once a month practicing this may be enough.
Since you said VFR only we will skip the instrument approach on one engine.
The first 10 seconds of the flight should be similar to a single except maintaining directional control on the ground with the loss of one engine. Again with a competent multi instructor you should be able to practice this a few times a year and know you can get the throttles closed and maintain directional control.
With the above considered I think you would be at least as safe as in a single during these segments which will be 99% of any flight. Only slightly more skill is needed than operating a HP complex single.
Now the segment that begins at +10 seconds to oh say +100 seconds. You now have 90 seconds of each flight that may be problematic. First this segment is difficult to simulate due to the inherent danger of shutting down an engine close to the ground. Yes you can go up to 3000 AGL, dirty up the plane and pull an engine. This will give you some feel for the situation. However, I can promise you no amount of training at 3000 AGL and knowing ahead of time what and when it will happen will ever make you proficient for the real thing. I can also promise you that on a +30 deg day, at 100 pounds under gross if you lose one during this 90 seconds, especially from 10 feet AGL to perhaps 500 feet AGL you will have a serious problem on your hands. Unless you can practice this in a sim (which does not exist ) a pilot can not be proficient during this segment. I know the OP said VFR only but, throw in a 200 foot ceiling. I am not familiar with the Aztec performance but in the above example it may not be flyable especially with one wind milling.
So, what is the answer? If you are comfortable with being at least as safe in the twin as in a HP complex in all of the flight segments except the 90 seconds mentioned then I think your plan is reasonable. In that 90 seconds you may have to accept that you will be no safer and perhaps less safe than in the single engine.
Take a pilot with almost 7000 hours, more than half in a twin, with about 1600 hours in make and model (PA 31-350). You are departing Denver on a 70 degree day at 100 pounds under gross. You lose one at 50 feet AGL. You do a great job of identifying the bad engine and getting it feathered. As the gear is coming up the plane settles into the ground about 200 feet past the end of the runway. BTDT, fortunately the instructor re set the sim and let me try it again. I was successful the second time getting the plane back on the ground and still being flyable. Was I proficient after the second try?
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
wow....soon, they'll be paying you. :yikes:
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That was my proposal following compliance of the most recent "Do not fly into known icing" AD placard compliance.
 
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