Flying in the U.S.

Armageddon Aviator

Armageddon Aviator

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
1,073
Location
Israel
Display Name
Display name:
Alon Smolarski
Hi,

I'm in America again - this time with my little tribe...

We spent a few days in NYC - took the kids to the American Museum of Natural History and to the Intrepid...

Also spent a couple of days in Blue Bell with Adam Zucker.

We went flying together yesterday in the Philadelphia area.

It's not the first time I'm flying in The U.S. but it never ceases to amaze me :)

It's weird that you can drive to the airport and take-off...just like that.
No flight plan, no prior authorization, no landing fees, no ATC telling you exactly where you can and cannot fly....amazing.

I enjoyed Adam's legendary hospitality - he's a great guy and a real brother.

He even managed to put up with my sloppy flying...( but the "official version" is that we were flying in choppy weather and I'm sticking to it :D )

We're flying to Orlando today, I'm taking the kids to Disney world...

What a great country :thumbsup::
 
Fear not Alon, we are catching up with you, fast...

The airlines have armed guards in the terminal and strip search interrogations of 80 year old Baptist ladies from Iowa on a church group tour - hey, we can't strip search Ahmed over there in seat C4 wearing the turban and chanting death to america because that would be profiling...

And we have that amusing game called the pop up TFR where some lucky pilot on his way to Orlando gets to spend time face down on oil soaked tarmac with the muzzle of an M4 pressed to the back of his head...

And some of genius congress critters are proposing to pay off the 16 trillion of national debt by putting $100 fees on general aviation everytime we contact ATC...

So, go ahead and enjoy the tattered remains of what used to be a free and glorious country when I was your age - it isn't 'going to last much longer...
 
Denny... dude... get your coffee. It's too early in the morning to totally, like, harsh my buzz like that. :)



That said... I thin Alon and Denny are both right.
 
Yep. I can still get in my plane, talk to nobody and fly lots of places freely. Still, you have to watch airspace, TFR's, etc but it is the freest place to fly in the world. Maybe, not for that much longer, so do it while you can.
 
If you think this is great, you should have seen it prior to 2001. Today is severe gustappo restrictions and threats to you compared to then.

You're dealing with a lot of restrictions flying today. Imagine waking up in the morning, going out to the airplane and taking off on a 500+ mile flight. Land somewhere, get fuel, be on your way, no landing fees, no parking fees, take pictures of airplanes. You don't even consider even checking the weather on a clear morning much less FSS for restrictions then taking off without turning radios on and going just about anywhere not marked as R- or P- on a sectional and not worrying about getting intercepted or shot down. The ADIZ was some irrelevant thing that you never had to bother with unless you were miles out over the ocean or at the Canada/Mexico borders, not some ominous thing inside the country. TFR's were justifiable and fairly predictable (forest fires, spacecraft launches, etc), not some touchy feely arrest you out of nowhere tool. President is in town, so what. Go circle the statue of liberty or a nuclear power plant, go for it. You do that now and some screechy jet will come chase you down and if you don't bow down to them, they can shoot you down and even if they don't, you'll be hauled up on the carpet for being a threat to national security.

Flying in a free country died in 2001. Anyone who says otherwise didn't fly before 2001.
 
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Well we can't be too safe......what if someone crashed their 150 into the containment building of a nuke plant??? Oh....Yeah. Never mind. :D
 
Excellent! Glad you were able to enjoy some flying on your trip!

Hope the trip to Disney goes well and the family has a great time!

Gary
 
A sign that people know what's right...

Yesterday at GJT airshow, of course they were confiscating anything not allowed on a flight line. Mainly pocket knives.

It's rural Colorado. Every red-blooded American male is carrying a pocket knife.

I was annoyed for them but didn't have a knife on me, knowing "the rules" of airshows.

Here is the cool part. On the way out there was a big row of folding tables, with all the "confiscated" items and a slip of paper with the owner's name underneath.

Get 'er done.
 
denverpilot said:
Yesterday at GJT airshow, of course they were confiscating anything not allowed on a flight line.
I was annoyed for them but didn't have a knife on me, knowing "the rules" of airshows.
Click to expand...

You have got to be kidding.
 
denverpilot said:
A sign that people know what's right...

Yesterday at GJT airshow, of course they were confiscating anything not allowed on a flight line. Mainly pocket knives.

It's rural Colorado. Every red-blooded American male is carrying a pocket knife.

I was annoyed for them but didn't have a knife on me, knowing "the rules" of airshows.

Here is the cool part. On the way out there was a big row of folding tables, with all the "confiscated" items and a slip of paper with the owner's name underneath.

Get 'er done.
Click to expand...
I worked the gate at the recent KBJC airshow and we didn't search anyone or confiscate anything. Strange that KGJT would be different other than the fact that they have airline traffic there.
 
Everskyward said:
I worked the gate at the recent KBJC airshow and we didn't search anyone or confiscate anything. Strange that KGJT would be different other than the fact that they have airline traffic there.
Click to expand...

Airline traffic = TSA.
And it was the Blues.

I'm surprised they gave the confiscated stuff back.
 
Alan;
When your down in Kissimmee check out Warbird adventures orver at Kissimme airport, you can get a ride in a T-6 I did it when I took my family down there and it was a blast!
 
murphey said:
Airline traffic = TSA.
And it was the Blues.

I'm surprised they gave the confiscated stuff back.
Click to expand...
At the Rockford airshow a couple of months back the Thunderbirds were performing (and flying from the airport), and Allegiant and Frontier both fly out of there. They weren't confiscating anything.
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
Hi,

I'm in America again - this time with my little tribe...

We spent a few days in NYC - took the kids to the American Museum of Natural History and to the Intrepid...

Also spent a couple of days in Blue Bell with Adam Zucker.

We went flying together yesterday in the Philadelphia area.

It's not the first time I'm flying in The U.S. but it never ceases to amaze me :)

It's weird that you can drive to the airport and take-off...just like that.
No flight plan, no prior authorization, no landing fees, no ATC telling you exactly where you can and cannot fly....amazing.

I enjoyed Adam's legendary hospitality - he's a great guy and a real brother.

He even managed to put up with my sloppy flying...( but the "official version" is that we were flying in choppy weather and I'm sticking to it :D )

We're flying to Orlando today, I'm taking the kids to Disney world...

What a great country :thumbsup::
Click to expand...

First, it was amazing having Alon visit again and great to meet his beautiful family. Second Alon is being modest as his flying skills were superb. Even with gusty winds on a warm day he kept things very smooth including the landing. We flew over the countryside and then did a city tour of Philadelphia and Philly Approach was very accommodating. Alon is a safe and competent aviator. I'd let my family fly with him.

It is amazing how we take our flying for granted even with the gripes about TFRs and restricted Airspace compared to other countries its pretty darn good. In Israel its all controlled VFR. Alon's beautiful wife asked me before we left, " don't you have to file a plan some where?" my response was "Nope" We do have some great freedoms here and yes it is a great country. I am looking forward to getting some stick time in the Holy Land though!:)
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Well we can't be too safe......what if someone crashed their 150 into the containment building of a nuke plant??? Oh....Yeah. Never mind. :D
Click to expand...

I helped build one of those. It designed for a 747 and more. A C150 would bounce off.
 
Welcome to our country, Alon.

We do tend to take our freedoms for granted here; I hope that situation doesn't change.

-Rich
 
BillTIZ said:
A C150 would bounce off.
Click to expand...

Oh come on everybody knows a C150 can easily penetrate one of those things causing a major nuclear blast and a 747 can't even scratch the paint on the building.

We do tend to take our freedoms for granted here; I hope that situation doesn't change.
Click to expand...

You see, that's the problem. It has already changed and people aren't noticing much and now the decade+ old restrictions are routine stuff that no one considers an inconvenience because that's all they know now.
 
fgcason said:
You see, that's the problem. It has already changed and people aren't noticing much and now the decade+ old restrictions are routine stuff that no one considers an inconvenience because that's all they know now.
Click to expand...

I started flying well after 2001, so just to satisfy my curiosity, what restrictions were imposed after 9/11 that I take for granted? I can't think of one obvious one, other than the DC SFRA/ADIZ, though I assume there was something around DC before 9/11.
 
jpower said:
I started flying well after 2001, so just to satisfy my curiosity, what restrictions were imposed after 9/11 that I take for granted? I can't think of one obvious one, other than the DC SFRA/ADIZ, though I assume there was something around DC before 9/11.
Click to expand...
For many years there was a small Prohibited area "protecting" the heart of the Capitol from the terrifying threat of light-aircraft air terrorists...but the one time some idiot actually crashed an aircraft into the White House, he flew right through it, as if it were only a circle on a chart (which in fact it was). No military intercept, not so much as a pistol shot from a Secret Service sentry. As it turns out, that didn't matter, as he managed to land it in the backyard, sort of, and only scratched the masonry a little. So there was little incentive for the government to expand or enhance the existing restricted airspace.

After hijackers with legitimate credentials went through metal detectors at major airports in 2001 and used razor knives and threats of bombs to take control of four heavies to use them as weapons against major targets including the Pentagon, the government's response (after keeping the GA fleet grounded, then smothered under temporarily-expanded Class Bs long after the airlines were flying again, with no real change in terminal security procedures) was to create an enormous inland ADIZ around the entire District of Columbia.

This SFRA/ADIZ, which I like to think of as the Center Ring in the Circus of Security, will have little effect on any future hijackers' plans, even if they target buildings in Washington again... but it is here to stay, apparently (let's face it, if a hijacked airliner is shot down over the DC metro area, killing hundreds, the terrorists will consider it a successful mission. They are not strategists- they are terrorists). I expect to see more of such airspaces nationwide in the future... probably starting with expanding Class Bs, then mutating them into SFRAs. I hope I'm wrong, or at least they wait until after I've given up flying.

I often think it's an experiment, sadly, to see how much freedom we will exchange for the illusion of security. Kind of like what pax are put through now at airline terminals... procedures which, like the SFRA, would probably not stop an attack planned and executed exactly like the 9//11/01 operation. But travelers worldwide are starting to equate being treated like prisoners with being protected from evil, so that stuff is probably here to stay, too.

What else do GA pilots have to deal with since 2001? Here's a few I can think of offhand:

-More TFRs more often, for politicians moving about, sporting events, etc., etc. Many more, much more often.

- Fences and gates springing up around small airports, isolating them from surrounding communities and hobbling many airport-based businesses, and onerous policies like requiring owners to have multiple locking tie-downs.
- Municipal LEOs snooping around small airports and harassing pilots, pax, and airport workers. Not always the case (like at 47N, where the cops are friendly, courteous and have made an effort to undertsand who's who and what's what), but sadly all too common nowadays at many other airports.
-Port authority police and airport security harassing "airplane spotters" near larger airports, often illegally seizing cameras and data cards, even when the "suspects" are not on airport property.
- Draconian background-check hurdles for foreign-born flight students.
- A tinge of terrorism-induced fear-mongering behind all media coverage of even the most trivial GA mishaps.

... I'll let others add to the list...
 
No terrorist ever denied any of my civil liberties, but TSA did.

SBL got exactly what he wanted.
 
jtheune said:
Alan;
When your down in Kissimmee check out Warbird adventures orver at Kissimme airport, you can get a ride in a T-6 I did it when I took my family down there and it was a blast!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.

I did a bit of research on the internet before this trip and knew about the T-6 rides...

They charge $ 430 for half an hour...that's too expensive for me but I'm sure it must be quite an experience....

We're already spending a small fortune on flights, hotels and amusement parks... So maybe next time...
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
Thanks for the info.

I did a bit of research on the internet before this trip and knew about the T-6 rides...

They charge $ 430 for half an hour...that's too expensive for me but I'm sure it must be quite an experience....

We're already spending a small fortune on flights, hotels and amusement parks... So maybe next time...
Click to expand...

They have gone up quite a bit. I recall paying 250 10 years ago. I dont know that i could have gone 4 30
 
jpower said:
I started flying well after 2001, so just to satisfy my curiosity, what restrictions were imposed after 9/11 that I take for granted? I can't think of one obvious one, other than the DC SFRA/ADIZ, though I assume there was something around DC before 9/11.
Click to expand...

Let's give the gustappo their DC ADIZ nonsense since that belongs to them now.

It's morning right now. Pick anywhere in this country as a start point. Go outside and see that the weather is nice for a XC flight. Don't call FSS or anyone to check weather or notams or TFR or ADIZ nonsense, just look up and say it's flying weather. Now go out to the airplane, do not turn the radio on, transponder is optional, do not make any phone calls, do not check internet, just go to the airplane, get in and take off. 200 mile legs on a 1000 mile all day XC today. Your restrictions are limited to what is shown on a sectional. You don't carry ID cards beyond your pilot license. You don't have any super secret airport ID cards. You don't have any landing fee or parking fee money - just food and fuel money. You just go fly for 8-10 hours. See a nuclear reactor, or dam, circle around it 5-6 times. Who cares if there is a football game playing somewhere, just take off and fly and if you happen to go over it, woopie doo doo, keep going or use it as a turn point for a course change. Oh, it's election year isn't it with all the popup paranoia tfr's? Who cares, just go fly anyway because it's no big deal. It doesn't matter where you go as long as it's not marked on the sectional as R- or P- or ADIZ and you don't see smoke from a big forest fire or a volcano blowing up. Oh, you can take your gun and camera with you if you want too.
What are the chances you won't get intercepted and end up face down on the ramp and in handcuffs with guns pointed at your head with a mile long list of charges against you? Pre 2001, it was no big deal.

When traveling, I use to overnight in airport parking lots. Can't do that anymore. I use to sit off the end of runways and have lunch or take pictures of airplanes. Can't do that anymore - hell, I ended up in the back of police cars twice after 2001 before I realized that I was a terrorist for eating a sandwich and looking at an airplane at the same time even without being on airport property. I don't have super secret ID cards and gate codes to go walk ramps looking at airplanes so I can't do that anymore.

Here's one XC I did: Start in nowhere upstate NY. Fly to the coast south of NYC. Go circle the statue of liberty. Contact ATC to fly through the NYC airspace to see the city. Up the island to the tip, fly to the mainland and to Rhode Island. Across to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket. Around to Boston. Walk around ramps looking at airplanes and snooping in the big open hangars. No damned fences to deal with. I walked on the side of the runway a couple times because it was the direct path from the ramp to town where food was at. Then flew back home. Not a single phone or radio call to FSS all day long. Nobody even looked at me funny. No armed fighters coming after me threatening to shoot me down. We were just normal pilots doing what pilots do while having fun and that's the way we were treated. Try that flight today just as I did, and you'll be on the evening news for a week.

You may think you're flying in a free country today however compared to what we use to do prior to 2001, you're living in North Korea.
 
fgcason said:
If you think this is great, you should have seen it prior to 2001. Today is severe gustappo restrictions and threats to you compared to then.

You're dealing with a lot of restrictions flying today. Imagine waking up in the morning, going out to the airplane and taking off on a 500+ mile flight. Land somewhere, get fuel, be on your way, no landing fees, no parking fees, take pictures of airplanes. You don't even consider even checking the weather on a clear morning much less FSS for restrictions then taking off without turning radios on and going just about anywhere not marked as R- or P- on a sectional and not worrying about getting intercepted or shot down. The ADIZ was some irrelevant thing that you never had to bother with unless you were miles out over the ocean or at the Canada/Mexico borders, not some ominous thing inside the country. TFR's were justifiable and fairly predictable (forest fires, spacecraft launches, etc), not some touchy feely arrest you out of nowhere tool. President is in town, so what. Go circle the statue of liberty or a nuclear power plant, go for it. You do that now and some screechy jet will come chase you down and if you don't bow down to them, they can shoot you down and even if they don't, you'll be hauled up on the carpet for being a threat to national security.

Flying in a free country died in 2001. Anyone who says otherwise didn't fly before 2001.
Click to expand...



These are not restrictions at all, just some reasonable rules you have to abide. People take for granted that the US is pretty much the most GA friendly country in the world. You can drive up, not talk to anyone, and take off. Try doing that in Mexico where airports are limited, you have to get an approval every single time you want to take off, and federal bureaucrats will do everything possible to give you a hard time. TFRS, ADIZ, restricted and prohibited areas are nothing compared to regs elsewhere. In addition, flying is a privilege not a right and we are lucky to have a country were aviation is accesible to the public.
 
Armageddon Aviator said:
Hi,

I'm in America again - this time with my little tribe...

We spent a few days in NYC - took the kids to the American Museum of Natural History and to the Intrepid...

Also spent a couple of days in Blue Bell with Adam Zucker.

We went flying together yesterday in the Philadelphia area.

It's not the first time I'm flying in The U.S. but it never ceases to amaze me :)

It's weird that you can drive to the airport and take-off...just like that.
No flight plan, no prior authorization, no landing fees, no ATC telling you exactly where you can and cannot fly....amazing.

I enjoyed Adam's legendary hospitality - he's a great guy and a real brother.

He even managed to put up with my sloppy flying...( but the "official version" is that we were flying in choppy weather and I'm sticking to it :D )

We're flying to Orlando today, I'm taking the kids to Disney world...

What a great country :thumbsup::
Click to expand...
Welcome to the US. Glad you like it. I do, too.
 
cirrusmx said:
These are not restrictions at all, just some reasonable rules you have to abide. People take for granted that the US is pretty much the most GA friendly country in the world. You can drive up, not talk to anyone, and take off. Try doing that in Mexico where airports are limited, you have to get an approval every single time you want to take off, and federal bureaucrats will do everything possible to give you a hard time. TFRS, ADIZ, restricted and prohibited areas are nothing compared to regs elsewhere. In addition, flying is a privilege not a right and we are lucky to have a country were aviation is accesible to the public.
Click to expand...

I think the problem lies in comparing our country to others. Just because everything in Israel is controlled VFR or England charges you a quid for every ten words spoken to ATC or that there isn't even any GA in places like Afganastan dosen't mean its not an issue to restrict flying freedoms in the US. I do not feel that is ok to limit our freedoms just because other countries have greater restrictions.

To be frank I don't think many of the rules are reasonable. I think they are unreasonable. I mean most TFRs! Pfft, What a joke. There are so many more ways to bring a nation to its knees than with a Cessna 150 or a PA28. TFRs primarily affect GA. Heck they may only affect GA. So Restricting GA due to 9/11 is like restricting bottle rockets because someone shot and ICBM at your city.

But all that said I agree the US is the most GA friendly of all countries that I'm aware of.
 
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