Flying in the NY Times

[infotango]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/26/fashion/26pilot.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
The NYT has published an article about the declining number of private pilots.

It's a pretty interesting read. One of the theories put forth is that in today's households women make many of the decisions, and no longer are tolerant of the men leaving on Saturday to go flying.

They also mention the hopes that Cessna will start building it's LSA, and help revitalize the industry.

 

[N6399A]

What a sad and horribly written little artical.

 

[EdFred]

I wouldn't say that Sheri. There are a lot of women who put the kibosh on the man flying. You're one of 36,000ish women in the country who don't.

(ok, ok, I know more than 36,000 wives let their husbands fly, but I think the article is pretty much on the mark.) I am the youngest owner at our aiport, and it is a bunch of old white guys out there. I haven't seen any female pilots at our field, and the only ones younger than me out there are the CFIs.

 

[Steve]

My pilot wife tolerates me leaving any day of the week to go flying in the plane she bought me....

 

[ScottM]

There are a lot or reasons why people don't fly. While I do tend to hear from women more about the alleged 'dangers' of flying in seemingly greater numbers I also hear the same from men, my boss for one. I am lucky that my SO is very supportive flying. While she would not want to do it herself she is supportive of me doing it.

 

[sbonek]

it's a decent theory and probably has some merit to it... I think it may have more to do with the lack of "do it yourself" type people combined with a short attention span...

"You mean I have to actually read and study in order to learn how to fly, and even then it's going to take 6 months to a year in order to finish?"

 

[Bill]

(ok, ok, I know more than 36,000 wives let their husbands fly,

Let? Let? Ain't no let about it. Since I've started flying, my wife has gotten a total kitchen renovation (new cabinets, counter tops, hardwood floor, appliances), new dining room hardwood floor, new dining room suit, and a really nice car to drive. Let?

flying costs in more ways than the obvious...

 

[astanley]

It is a daunting process and a lifetime commitment: it is the same reason we see lots of people with Harley's and bass boats and less with sailboats and airplanes.

I think it was Dave G (shipoke) who said, probably a few years ago on Ol' Yeller, that people he worked with always questioned how he could afford to fly, and then he saw them pull out of the parking lot in a financed F350 turbodiesel hauling a brand new bass boat with a 250 hanging off the rear.

There is also some meat on the bones of the SO comment: mine is actually comfortable with it, but she has many friends that are not. Part of it stems from fear, part of it ignorance, the final part being poor communication of needs. We just had this discussion in the motorcycle group I'm a part of, interestingly enough.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

Let? Let? Ain't no let about it. Since I've started flying, my wife has gotten a total kitchen renovation (new cabinets, counter tops, hardwood floor, appliances), new dining room hardwood floor, new dining room suit, and a really nice car to drive. Let?

flying costs in more ways than the obvious...

Yeah, but you also sold the Hooligan Machine, so she must have figured it was an even-or-better tradeoff. You can't be a hooligan on the R bike

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[mikea]

it's a decent theory and probably has some merit to it... I think it may have more to do with the lack of "do it yourself" type people combined with a short attention span...

"You mean I have to actually read and study in order to learn how to fly, and even then it's going to take 6 months to a year in order to finish?"

You forget, "How much will it cost me to get to the head of the line...to get the Cliffs Notes version...can I copy from another guy and buy the term papers like I did in college?"

Sorry, George.

 

[Bill]

Yeah, but you also sold the Hooligan Machine, so she must have figured it was an even-or-better tradeoff. You can't be a hooligan on the R bike

I still jones for a fast bike now and then, but I know my personality, and it is much better not to be tempted.

 

[tonycondon]

IME, the wife factor is very real and a threat to GA. CFI's should have to take a class about marriage/flying dynamics. I often remind some of my students to slow down to keep the wife happy.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

IME, the wife factor is very real and a threat to GA. CFI's should have to take a class about marriage/flying dynamics. I often remind some of my students to slow down to keep the wife happy.

I dunno, I guess I got lucky! Mine didn't compain about the fixed wing rating, buying a 1976 Cherokee, buying into the R22 and getting my rotorcraft rating, or then buying into the R44.

As the R44 got closer to delivery time, she kept dropping hints about when her first ride was going to be. After I brought the ship back from LA, and then brought it back from getting it inspected at the dealer's (it had something like 25 hours on it at the time), she demanded a ride the following day. This is a woman who detests airplanes of any size (including heavy metal), who turns out to love toolin' around in helicopters.

I can't figure out the logic of all this, but I sure like it

 

[Everskyward]

I wouldn't say that Sheri. There are a lot of women who put the kibosh on the man flying. You're one of 36,000ish women in the country who don't.

Heh. It has occurred to me that one possible reason there are few female pilots is that in the dynamics of a relationship the opposite situation is even worse; woman wants to fly, man is not too keen on it.

But really, I think the cost and difficulty of learning flying as a hobby is the main deterrent. I think a lot of people start then realize all the work they will need to put into it which causes them to reconsider. Also, there are many more adventure-type activities available to young people now than there were back when many of the older types got into flying.

 

[astanley]

IME, the wife factor is very real and a threat to GA. CFI's should have to take a class about marriage/flying dynamics. I often remind some of my students to slow down to keep the wife happy.

I think that flying, like many very serious hobbies, requires a level of dedication and openess that many people do not understand just how to communicate effectively about this. Some people just cannot effectively communicate around such sensitive topics, and this leads to ugly situations that no one wants to be in.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

But really, I think the cost and difficulty of learning flying as a hobby is the main deterrent. I think a lot of people start then realize all the work they will need to put into it which causes them to reconsider. Also, there are many more adventure-type activities available to young people now than there were back when many of the older types got into flying.

It's not something one can do easily; you have to plan (unless you own your plane, and live in the Land Of Perfect Weather and Time). I think flight schools could do a better job of helping pilots learn to plan aviation into their life and with their family - one CFI encouraged me to take my wife on a "fun" XC with him in a bigger plane, just to get comfortable with the process. It was a great idea in retrospect.

I think you really hit on something about accessability of hobbies today. I have a whole bunch of hobbies: beer brewing, mountain biking, long distance road cycling, photography, barbecue, cooking, rock climbing, mountaineering, long distance backpacking, and flying to name the big ones. I see the same pattern over and over again - people get into it when it is easy, back away when it gets hard.

<rant>

Cycling is a prime example - I know people who will ride their fanny off in the nice weather, but as soon as it gets cold / wet / snow, they are looking for something else. Then the bike sits, they get out of shape, and they lose interest. The worst part is, this is a hobby that you can do ANYWHERE there is pavement, trail, and a modicum of time. Most of my brewing gear is stuff I bought from people who brewed three or four times and then lost interest; same with cameras; and I've brought people climbing before just to have them go "This rocks!!" and four weeks later complain of painful cramps in their hands and say "This is too hard, I'm going to go do something else"

</rant>

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[SCCutler]

My pilot wife tolerates me leaving any day of the week to go flying in the plane she bought me....

Have I told you, Steve, what a sublimely beautiful woman your wife is?

===

I am also blessed to have a wife who is fully-supportive of my flying, who recognizes that flying is a fine and effective form of therapy for the ailments daily life brings, and who actively incorporates GA flying into the family's life and travel plans. She's a babe, too!

 

[SCCutler]

But really, I think the cost and difficulty of learning flying as a hobby is the main deterrent. I think a lot of people start then realize all the work they will need to put into it which causes them to reconsider. ...

Keen observation- there are, I think, fewer people now who have th interest, maturity or attention span to dedicate to an activity like flying, which requires significant investment of mental energy and self-discipline.

 

[wbarnhill]

<rant>

100% Agreed, and really, I've fallen into that trap myself, but also because of finances. I wish I could delve further into photography, and I've even been asked if I would do a wedding, but I am really not sure of my talents and would hate to ruin an occasion like that, not to mention I don't have the funds for all of the equipment I'd need.

 

[deafsound]

I didn't read the article, but has anyone considered that the year I was born--1973--and my sister---1978--- were two of the lowest years for births in the last 90 years. Maybe there are just less people around to fly? I dunno.

 

[Anthony]

IME, the wife factor is very real and a threat to GA.

I think so too. I get assaulted and I do mean assaulted at parties by other men's wives when the see their husbands talking to me about flying. But the fact that they have a Harley is OK.

 

[tonycondon]

heh anthony, i usually make a good effort to avoid aviation talk when in a social setting with other pilots and their wives. In the event that it happens though, its interesting to watch their facial expressions.

 

[KennyFlys]

My pilot wife tolerates me leaving any day of the week to go flying in the plane she bought me....

Steve, should at some point this wonderful woman decide to dump your butt... give me a heads up, will ya?

The number of student pilots is down by about a third since 1990, from 129,000 to 88,000. The number of private pilots is down from 299,000 to 236,000, according to statistics kept by the Federal Aviation Administration. And they are aging.

Huh? I'd like to more of the older data.

Here's some of what I dug up off the FAA site. These are Excel files. There is no data posted on-line prior to 1996 nor after 2005.

Main Page for all statistics 1996-2005

Airmen Certificates Held 1996-2005 (No data posted after 2005)

Airmen Certificates Issued 1996-2005

Female Certificates Issued 1996-2005

By quick glance, roughly twice the number of student certificates are issued than total of private airplane, helo and glider tickets. I wonder if the author accounts for changes. Sure costs have gone up but so has advancement of pilots, overall. There are more instrument ratings. There are more ATPs and more than twice as many glider pilots over this period.

Something not addressed is the overall affect on numbers when a private ticket is replaced by a commercial or commercial by an ATP. There's also the few cases where a pilot relinquishes their private ticket in lieu of a sport ticket. Then there's the drastic change during the 80's when a third crew member was no longer required on many airliners. Hence, less demand.

He chose a tiny field where there is little activity. Those are all over as are those like my airport which are quite busy, enough so to warrant a planned ILS approach in the next year. It was somewhat of a hit job.

I do wonder... Brook, Laurie, Diana, Danielle, Mari? Were you ever yelled at by a male CFI? Why do I think this guy's comment was somewhat twisted?

Oh, and this statement by the author. I see substantial evidence to the contrary!

To be able to offer cut-rate prices for the new sport license, Mr. Kauffman went looking for a small, simple, inexpensive airplane. He ended up with an Aeronca Champion, which was built in 1946. So far, nobody is building a new plane to match the F.A.A.’s program.

Yeah... okay.

 

[AuntPeggy]

[Rant]
What an offensive article! I'm concerned that Phil Boyer is the source of this

Today, he said, in a two-income family, she is more likely to say: “You are not. That’s your day to take Johnny to the soccer game, and what the heck are you doing spending our hard-earned money on flying lessons?”

If such were the case, we would be seeing the same decline in all male-dominated leisure activities. Are we?

Haven't we all been saying that GA is under attack from the airlines and user fees and the over-all expense of flying? Suddenly, it's the "little woman?"

However, the article does point toward a solution to the problem. About half the adult population isn't joining in. Why? How can that get turned around? Women are a huge part of the marketplace that is not being sought.
[/Rant]

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My pilot wife tolerates me leaving any day of the week to go flying in the plane she bought me....

So, Steve, about those single daughters of yours...

 

[Everskyward]

I do wonder... Brook, Laurie, Diana, Danielle, Mari? Were you ever yelled at by a male CFI?

Not that I can recall right off. In fact, the instructor I received the most criticism from was a woman, and she was not yelling, well, not much. In retrospect I can see she was correct in what she was telling me.

Why do I think this guy's comment was somewhat twisted?

Ahh, you mean this comment...

“Women learn differently from men,” Mr. Kauffman said. “If two men go up, they will scream and shout, and a transfer of knowledge occurs, and we’d get back on the ground and go have a beer, and life is good,” he said. “If you yell at a woman, she’d start crying, and she’d never come back.” He would like to hire a female flight instructor but can’t find one, he said.

I have always objected to broad, sweeping statements about women and men. Women are individuals as much a men are. I also think he is exaggerating about screaming, shouting and yelling. If someone criticizes you or disagrees with you, that is not necessarily yelling. I am a pretty easygoing person but I can argue and debate all day long. I try to restrain myself here.

His statement reminded me of something that happened when I was a new CFI, though. I was given this student who was the wife of a guy who was learning to fly at the same place. I think her husband was pushing her to learn and she was going along with it. On about the second or third lesson I was trying to explain how to hold the controls when taxiing in a crosswind and she started crying, saying she would never be able to learn all this. I was stunned and speechless and couldn't think of anything to say or do. It was completely outside anything I had been prepared to deal with. Being another woman in that situation didn't help me at all... or her either. In fact that was her last lesson. I felt bad about the whole thing, but no one, male or female, should take up something like flying just because someone else wants them to.

 

[Rockfly]

I thought the article was good. The writer explained possible reasons for the drop-off in GA Flying, but did not say "this is the reason". Which I appreciated because who really knows?

MPO is that it's a number of things: (wow, that's really going out on a limb) cost, increased restrictions around big cities, lawsuits, lots more hobbies and activities to pursue than there used to be.

Yes, flying has always been expensive. But it sure does seem to be getting worse. I don't know how the average young adult could possibly support a flying habit these days. I don't encourage young people to fly because the financial committment is so high.

All the big cities have extensive Class B airspace systems and now you have TFRs and the Wash D.C. ADIZ. Takes the fun out of flying when you have to worry about busting airspace and getting in trouble. But the cities are where the people are.

Nowdays, if you make a mistake, have a mechanical problem or simply have bad luck, and someone gets killed or injured, you're going to get sued. Takes some of the fun out of flying with realization.

Seems like there's so many more ways to spend your time than there used to be: so many more channels on TV, video games, internet, new sports (mountain bikings), more organized sports (adult leagues), fitness clubs, etc.

I can't lay any of the blame on women. I guess in a two-income family if the man tries to use more than his fair share on his flying habit there would be trouble. Generally speaking, I'd say most wives would prefer their husbands not fly, for the very understandable reasons that there is risk in flying. But most put up with it because they know their husband loves it.

Why does anyone fly for fun at all? For all the expense, risk, effort and hassle, the joy of flying makes it all worthwhile. At least for me.

 

[Anthony]

heh anthony, i usually make a good effort to avoid aviation talk when in a social setting with other pilots and their wives. In the event that it happens though, its interesting to watch their facial expressions.

There is never another pilot at social gatherings unless its a fly-in I attend. Its always the guy with the Harley or boat that "has always wanted to fly." They'll start asking me questions about flying, the wife will overhear from across the room and then pounce. Its not pretty. Last time it happend I put a dead, well near dead mouse in the wife's drink when she wasn't looking.

 

[Kaye]

IME, the wife factor is very real and a threat to GA. CFI's should have to take a class about marriage/flying dynamics. I often remind some of my students to slow down to keep the wife happy.

...and husbands..........

 

[Kaye]

I do wonder... Brook, Laurie, Diana, Danielle, Mari? Were you ever yelled at by a male CFI?

Yep. And I almost quit that day.

 

[jesse]

Yelling is stupid and the cockpit isn't the place for it. I can yell at a guy in an airplane and generally they are just going to yell back.

I can yell at a girl in the airplane and some of them I've known would just yell back. The majority of them I've known would get upset if I were to actually yell at them. Tears would follow.

Either way there shouldn't be any yelling in the airplane. I do not see it helping. Just because a lot of women are more emotional and do not handle men yelling at them does not mean they make worst pilots. There are great female pilots, great male pilots, terrible female pilots and terrible male pilots.

 

[colomtnflyer]

I can just see the AOPA headline...

"After AOPA's recent decisive win over the FAA and it's proposal to Congress to implement user fees, Pres. Hill Foyer is already planning the next battle facing GA pilots- and it's on the homefront..."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't encourage young people to fly because the financial committment is so high.

... because young people aren't being encouraged to fly so there aren't enough pilots to drive the costs down. Stop it! I mean, start it! (enouraging young people of all ages to fly.)

I noticed something at the We-Didn't-Glide-a-thon. Looking around the table, we had... Tony, Jesse, Tris, Chris, Rachel, Me, Kate... At 32, I was the old fart in the group until Bill and his wife and Matt showed up! Not knocking anyone else, but I found it rather interesting that the young'ins were still there flying in spirit if not in fact.

 

[tonycondon]

We-Didn't-Glide-a-thon.

hey thats kinda catchy!

 

[grattonja]

Aerotech. Sigh. My flight school. AND MY WIFE'S... Matt had a VERY bad day of answering telephone calls from irate women pilots yesterday. And Matt should know better than to suggest that all women students cry when yelled at. He knows my wife has yelled back, and hit as necessary... LOL! Matt says that he was sorely mischaracterized. The reporter apparently took this quote out of some larger discussion, which included a local member of the 99s, BTW.


Too much stereotype indeed. Let's face facts, learning to fly is: A. difficult and B. expensive. As to women flying less, the entire system is very male oriented, and marketed to men far more than to women.

Jim G

 

[Bill]

Matt says that he was sorely mischaracterized. The reporter apparently took this quote out of some larger discussion,

Which is why AOPA advises against talking to the press, they will uncontext your quotes to suit their agenda.

 

[grattonja]

Which is why AOPA advises against talking to the press, they will uncontext your quotes to suit their agenda.

Right. Agreed. Pity that Phil Boyer didn't think before he shot his mouth off on "life in the 50s" as well. Now he's getting some love letters from some female pilots like my wife, who is pretty heated up about the whole thing.

Jim G

 

[gprellwitz]

One of Leslie's higher-ups was scheduled for his PP checkride on 9/11/2001. After that, his wife said NO WAY, so he never got his ticket.

edit: Oops Ed, I meant Certificate.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Wow, some great discussion points here, and after reading the article, I have some comments to share about my personal situation, and why I feel so fortunate as to have such a wonderful woman in my life:

1) My girlfriend loves the fact that I am so passionate about flying, and is very supportive of me in that regard. She enjoys going flying when my mentor takes us up, and looks forward to flying with me once I get my license.
2) However, she has expressed a concern about the financial aspect of things, which is something that has weighed on my mind as well. Without going into much detail, I think that she is completely justified in the concerns that she expressed to me, and I assured her that the reason I want to go through with getting my license now is that there is a very real possibility that what happened to the one guy in the article will happen to me... I'll have the financial responsibilities of life and family, and won't be able to. I explained to her that after I get my license, I keep that license, and even if I don't fly for several years, when I want to start again I just have to go with a CFI for a bit until he/she and I are comfortable in my abilities again, and make me legally "current". She very much understood my reasoning.
3) I too have several other hobbies, including home-brewing (using a kit that she bought me for Christmas), and mountain-biking. I think I'd like to join her in one of her hobbies (of which I am very supportive)... road cycling. I think I'll try to do a couple of distance rides on the mountain bike to see if the format is my kind of thing before investing in the road bike and other gear, though.
4) She's a babe. I don't need to say any more than that.

IMO, the article had the typical media technique of taking things out of context to fit the bias that the writer wants to put on the story. But, I think that they do list several "possible" causes. I just consider myself very fortunate that the "wife factor" (or in my case, girlfriend factor) does not affect me.

 

[N6399A]

I just didn’t like the way the article was written. “MATTHEW W. PHELPS was a natural candidate for flying lessons.” Says who? Maybe the guy enjoyed it but didn’t have what it takes to finish. Maybe he’s using his impending marriage as an excuse to not finish.

And who is this Matt Kauffman guy? “If you yell at a woman, she’d start crying, and she’d never come back.” Most of those women wouldn’t be there in the first place. My CFI had a couple of guys cry that weren’t getting it. I mean, I can see the crying part maybe, although I never did………. came close on occasion, and was yelled at as much as anyone. Believe me on this one. I was yelled at a lot. But quitting was never an option or even thought.

Kauffman goes on to say that he would like to hire a female CFI, but can’t find one. He could have said there are none available in his area, instead of making it sound like they don’t exist. Maybe they just don’t want to work for a guy that categorizes women as criers and quitters.

“David Ehrenstein got his pilot’s license in graduate school in the early 1990s, at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign……….. But he had to give it up when he moved to Washington about three years later.”
What the hell does that mean??? He had to give it up???

“Ron Janis, a lawyer in New York who specializes in mergers and acquisitions, wants his license so he can fly to a house he and his wife bought in Provincetown, Mass. And he loves to fly. But, he said: “I certainly work longer hours than when I started. And I do get in trouble with my firm for taking this time off” to fly.” So what, it takes less time to drive to Mass.???

Personally I think the lack of students stems from misconceptions and misinformation about the costs, requirements, and dangers of becoming a pilot.

I’d wanted to fly since 1991 when I went for a food drive ride. KDVT pilots did a thing; bring a couple cans of food and $10.00 for a .5 hour plane ride. I was hooked then, but was poor, busy being a mom, grooming dogs for a living, and did I mention, poor? Every time I talked to anyone back then I was told that it took a “special” kind of person to be a pilot and that airplanes were, well, let’s just say, economically beyond my grasp. Since then, I opened retail store that became somewhat of a success and now make considerably more money than in the dog days, although on today’s scale would still fall into a lower income category. However, I would still believe the pilot thing was beyond me except for a guy I dated the end of 2005. He was a pilot, and a compete blithering idiot. Surely, if he could get a pilot certificate, I could. He was selling a used Plymouth Prowler at the time and made a comment that when he sold the Prowler he wanted to buy another C150. It wasn’t till then that I realized that I could, in fact, purchase an airplane for less money than I had spent on my camper. Then I was informed there were CFIs that could be obtained for $20.00 an hour.
WAIT A MINUTE!!! I can sell my camper and my reining horse, and become a
pilot? And that’s pretty much what I did. Well except, I still have the camper, the CFI was $45.00 an hour, and the plane I wanted and ended up with was almost twice the price of the camper. But that’s not the point. The point is, the average middle class person who could afford to do this has very little information about the costs, requirements, and dangers involved. And yes, they’ll spend 60K+ on a Harley while knowing of someone that was killed on one.

Everyone talks about how long it takes........ I don't know about anyone else but 6 months is not even a blip on the radar to me. Is it expensive? Yeah, but there are plenty of hobbies that are even more expensive. Try buying and keeping a reining horse in training.