Flying in loose formation

[SixPapaCharlie]

Making a flight in Sept.
Taking 2 planes.

Obviously we can leave 20 min apart but I am considering the idea of flying together. I am not sure 1/2 mile apart, quarter

Just to clarify, I am not talking about tight formation.

I will be in a high wing and what I am reading suggests I be higher, left, trailing the low wing plane. I am not sure if that logic only applies for tight formation or what.

Can someone give me thoughts on how a loose formation is flown?
Do we share the same squawk code and 1 pilot handles the radio for both or is that only in tight formation?

What would be considered a safe distance?

I would assume I need to tell the tower we are together.


So any particulars on how this works?

Closest I have flown to another plane before was with WhiskeyTango for about 5 minutes on our way home from lunch but it was not coordinated. This is 80mm zoom so probably about 1/4 mile.

Edit: and AggieMike88 was at the helm. Wasn't trying to take credit for that.

 

[frfly172]

First notify the tower you are a flight of two,only one aircraft has to work radio. Distance depends on skill level and comfort level.

 

[oldShar]

Done it before with some newbies, but kept about a mile between us --- close enough to see each other, far enough to avoid sudden Oopps things

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

First notify the tower you are a flight of two,only one aircraft has to work radio. Distance depends on skill level and comfort level.

Okay, this is good to know "flight of two" is the proper phraseology?
I use my call-sign like "6PC, flight of two ready to depart VFR to the south"?

At that point the tower will sequence us or we would be on the runway at the same time? I don't expect to be rolling with another plane.

 

[MachFly]

I highly recommend you either don't do it or get proper formation training first, there is nothing anyone here can tell you that would make you formation proficient. On a different note, in my opinion spread formation is more dangerous than close formation, especially when you're not trained. In close formation you're only looking at the flight lead, in spread formation you're doing plenty of other tasks such a scanning for other traffic. What often happens when you're scanning for other traffic or navigating is you lose your flight lead and end up colliding into him. So if I were you I'd either get proper training or depart 30min apart.

 

[kkoran]

ATC treats formations as a single aircraft. One takeoff clearance; one landing clearance. There's no communication between ATC and the wing man.

 

[Skip Miller]

ATC treats formations as a single aircraft. One takeoff clearance; one landing clearance. There's no communication between ATC and the wing man.

And if you are in tight formation, only one transponder is squawking. I do not know the rule or custom indicating how loose the formation must be before the second ship squawks, too. This is a detail but it definitely points out the need for some training before you do this. The 20 minutes in trail option sounds like a better plan.

-Skip

 

[kkoran]

And if you are in tight formation, only one transponder is squawking. I do not know the rule or custom indicating how loose the formation must be before the second ship squawks, too. This is a detail but it definitely points out the need for some training before you do this. The 20 minutes in trail option sounds like a better plan.

-Skip

Standard formation is within 1 mile horizontally and 100 ft vertically. Anything beyond that requires additional coordination with ATC.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Ok I am leaning toward departing seperately then.
I am not a risk taker when it comes to flying.

 

[AggieMike88]

Closest I have flown to another plane before was with WhiskeyTango for about 5 minutes on our way home from lunch but it was not coordinated. This is 80mm zoom so probably about 1/4 mile.

Edit: and AggieMike88 was at the helm. Wasn't trying to take credit for that.

For the record, it was approx a mile separation. And diverging.

Troy was in a C172 and we were in a C182.

 

[Zeldman]

I highly recommend you either don't do it or get proper formation training first, there is nothing anyone here can tell you that would make you formation proficient. On a different note, in my opinion spread formation is more dangerous than close formation, especially when you're not trained. In close formation you're only looking at the flight lead, in spread formation you're doing plenty of other tasks such a scanning for other traffic. What often happens when you're scanning for other traffic or navigating is you lose your flight lead and end up colliding into him. So if I were you I'd either get proper training or depart 30min apart.

I agree. I have done tight and loose formation flights carrying a camera crew. You don't learn it in a single flight. I would be soaked in sweat after the flight, and that was in Alaska.

Long time ago, before 9/11, two of us flew in 2 planes going to the same airport in the Houston area. We were at least one, more like two miles apart and the controller treated us as a flight of one. That is #2 plane put the transponder in standby and #1 plane did the radio work.

 

[denverpilot]

For actual formation flight, get some training from folks who've done it.

For two airplanes going to the same place, depart at the same time, let the faster aircraft depart first, and avail yourself of Flight Following.

I remember the afternoon the PoA Colorado contingent all departed Nebraska at the same time. Denver Center chuckled when I replied that we "had both aircraft in sight, we just ate lunch with them."

Clark slowly walked away from the 182 with the FrankenKota and Murph and I just picked different altitudes, me higher since she was landing FTG and I was going around FTG to APA. No chance for a collision that way.

Which is a good point not completely obvious to someone new to multi-aircraft arrivals and departures. Remember you're in a 3 dimensional element. Just ask your buddy his planned altitude and make your altitude something different.

We didn't coordinate it coming out of Nebraska. I just climbed 1000' above Murph's check-on altitude with ZDV, since we were both utilizing FF.

Of course the other way to go is to file IFR. Heh.

 

[Hank S]

I fly to breakfast regularly with 2-4 other aircraft. We each get flight following, and usually take off in rough order of speed. Use 122.75 to stay in touch with the other planes; ATC will provide advisories. We take off usually 2 planes in a row, then a short gap while the next 2 back-taxi and takeoff. The 30-nm flight doesn't take real long, and we're usually all at 3000 msl both ways. I'm often rolling out when the next plane is entering the pattern, and can sometimes follow the preceding plane around the pattern as Number Two.

Also flew 1300+ nm each way "with" a 172. I'd let them take off, then make a last pit stop, crank up the plane and go. ATC always warned me of them, and I would pass on the right and have the rental or courtesy car ready when they landed. It was a fun trip, but the 3-hour Cessna legs were pretty short.

Isn't this why we have 2 radios?

 

[MAKG1]

Seems a whole lot safer to fly separately, and keep enough distance to keep Center from freaking out and making constant traffic calls. At least a mile, maybe two. Remember a mile is ~20 seconds closure if the lead turns around at fast cruise, and you must keep ALL heads down time much shorter than that.

I'd make the distance even longer if the lead lacks strobes or wingman lacks a landing light.

Avoid flying on the lead's six. Maybe 4-5 o'clock. You want the lead to be able to see you if at all possible. Turn ALL the lights on, on both aircraft.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

For the record, it was approx a mile separation. And diverging.

Troy was in a C172 and we were in a C182.

MIKE!!!!
It was much closer than that.
Remember, You and Troy were playing rock paper scissors

It may have be way farther I don't recall all that well and just dug up the picture and was taking a stab.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Formation flying is fun.

This is me, taken from my instructor's plane. He has all the training. All I had to do was go straight, level and slow enough the diamond could keep up.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Formation flying is fun.

This is me, taken from my instructor's plane. He has all the training. All I had to do was go straight, level and slow enough the diamond could keep up.

Oh man I so badly want a photo of our plane in flight.
Pricey to hire someone to do it though.

That is a great shot!

 

[poadeleted20]

Okay, this is good to know "flight of two" is the proper phraseology?
I use my call-sign like "6PC, flight of two ready to depart VFR to the south"?

At that point the tower will sequence us or we would be on the runway at the same time? I don't expect to be rolling with another plane.

If you have to ask questions like this, you shouldn't be flying in formation with another airplane. In formation flying, there's too much that can go too wrong too fast to fix when someone is not properly trained. For more on that, see Alton Marsh's article in AOPA Flight Training on the subject -- especially the last segment titled "Know When to Say When".

What you should do is contact Stu McCurdy at Formation Flying Inc., to find out where and when you can attend a formation flying clinic so you can properly learn how to do this.

Stuart McCurdy
Formation Flying, Inc.
3509 Gattis School Rd.
Round Rock, TX 78664

I guarantee that if you do, you will be glad you did, because formation is one of the most rewarding, challenging, and enjoyable things you can do in flying. OTOH, if you try to teach yourself using the internet as an information source, I can pretty much guarantee that you are only likely to scare yourself or someone else -- and that's the best outcome.

BTW, the photo in post #1 shows an extremely dangerous position. If you don't know why it's so dangerous, then you really shouldn't be trying this.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ok I am leaning toward departing seperately then.

Good choice.

But still consider getting the training so you can learn to do it safely -- it's really worth the effort.

 

[poadeleted20]

Formation flying is fun.

This is me, taken from my instructor's plane. He has all the training. All I had to do was go straight, level and slow enough the diamond could keep up.

Based on your post and the picture, your instructor's formation training was lousy. He's in the wrong place, and you never put the rookie in the lead.

 

[Geico266]

And if you are in tight formation, only one transponder is squawking. I do not know the rule or custom indicating how loose the formation must be before the second ship squawks, too. This is a detail but it definitely points out the need for some training before you do this. The 20 minutes in trail option sounds like a better plan.

-Skip

Ok I am leaning toward departing seperately then.
I am not a risk taker when it comes to flying.

The problem is you are both heading in the same direction and if you over take the other plane bad things can happen. Nothing wrong with flying 30 yards apart. Just keep your eyes on the lead guy every 5-6 seconds. Maintain spacing.

Losing site of each other is scary, very scarey. Been there, done that.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Based on your post and the picture, your instructor's formation training was lousy. He's in the wrong place, and you never put the rookie in the lead.

We were trying to get pics of the airplane, not hold a particular formation. He passed from side to side, and underneath (good shots of the gear). I also wasn't really -leading- anything. I was following a fixed course and he "intercepted" me. There was no maneuvering. Just kept the CDI centered, stayed level at a specific altitude, and held speed constant while he went from one spot to another.

 

[poadeleted20]

The problem is you are both heading in the same direction and if you over take the other plane bad things can happen. Nothing wrong with flying 30 yards apart. Just keep your eyes on the lead guy every 5-6 seconds. Maintain spacing.

That is a lot harder than you make it sound. See the articles I've linked above for more on that. Without the right training and skill in each cockpit, you can lose 100 feet of separation faster than you can realize it's happening.

 

[poadeleted20]

We were trying to get pics of the airplane, not hold a particular formation. He passed from side to side, and underneath (good shots of the gear). I also wasn't really -leading- anything. I was following a fixed course and he "intercepted" me. There was no maneuvering. Just kept the CDI centered, stayed level at a specific altitude, and held speed constant while he went from one spot to another.

This post only reinforces what I said -- especially since you clearly do not understand what the problems were.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Ok, Ron. Educate me... what were the potential problems? What was so unsafe about this? One of us had lots of experience doing this (the chase plane), and one of us just had to go in a straight line, announcing any changes over the radio.

I'm not saying it wasn't unsafe. But right now, I just have someone telling me I'm so dumb I don't even know what the problems were, and my usual response to that sort of thing is probably not appropriate to this forum. So... let's make this a positive learning experience. What, exactly, did we do wrong and what could have gone wrong?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Ok, Ron. Educate me... what were the potential problems? What was so unsafe about this? One of us had lots of experience doing this (the chase plane), and one of us just had to go in a straight line, announcing any changes over the radio.

I'm not saying it wasn't unsafe. But right now, I just have someone telling me I'm so dumb I don't even know what the problems were, and my usual response to that sort of thing is probably not appropriate to this forum. So... let's make this a positive learning experience. What, exactly, did we do wrong and what could have gone wrong?

Lead leads, trail maintains separation. Period.

You were just flying straight? I guess that makes you lead? Then the other aircraft was responsible for separation (It doesn't work if you are both trying to control separation)? If that's the case, then the pilot of the aircraft who should have been responsible for separation put himself in a position where he couldn't see you and couldn't do his one and only job - separation. Look at the picture - can you see the other pilots face watching you? Look at the cover of lots of flying magazines - what do you see? The pilot of the trailing aircraft looking straight at the camera craft - month after month - there is some guy looking straight at the camera.

 

[Velocity173]

I imagine Ron is referring to being at the abeam position. I wouldn't call it dangerous. It's hard to determine proper spacing because you're only using the lateral axis or basically the increasing decreasing size of the aircraft. Your attention is directed off to one side as well so looking out for traffic while single pilot would be tough. Definitely wouldn't do it tight with someone not experienced in formation flying.

Abeam has two purposes; combat (mutual support) or taking pics.

Edit: disregard. I thought you were in the Cessna.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Lead leads, trail maintains separation. Period.

Edit: Woops. I read your post wrong. I'm leaving my original below.

Lead leads. that was me. Trail maintains separation. That was the CFI. Ok... You do realize in the picture of the mooney I'M the one in the mooney.. The instructor, who's in trail, and clearly so because he took a picture from that position, is maintaining separation.

So, now, I dunno... you appear to be wrong. I appear to be doing it right. So what's the fuss?


Original post below:



Give a definition, show how we violated the definition, pronounce us wrong.

Nope.

We turned this around. Instructor was responsible for maintaining separation. We briefed it that way. He was in visual contact at all times. Separation was obviously maintained. Just because this doesn't fit your pattern doesn't mean it was reckless.

As far as the "shots from the front" for magazine covers, based on the information I have, that could just be because airplanes are more photogenic from the front, and owners like being on covers.

 

[denverpilot]

As far as the "shots from the front" for magazine covers, based on the information I have, that could just be because airplanes are more photogenic from the front, and owners like being on covers.

He wasn't talking about where the shots were taken from. He was talking about where the eyeballs are in the shot.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ok, Ron. Educate me... what were the potential problems? What was so unsafe about this? One of us had lots of experience doing this (the chase plane), and one of us just had to go in a straight line, announcing any changes over the radio.

Start by reading Alton Marsh's articles. Then read these three:
Up Close and Personal: Formation Flying (Jennifer Whitley, AvWeb)
Deceptive Form (Scott Spangler, AOPA Pilot)
Formation Flying (Barry Schiff, AOPA Pilot)

Then get and read the T-34 Formation Manual. Then take a good formation flying clinic. When you're done, you'll know.

Beyond that, I'm not going to try to teach formation flying over the internet beyond saying that picture and your description show a situation with an unacceptable risk of a midair collision.

I'm not saying it wasn't unsafe. But right now, I just have someone telling me I'm so dumb I don't even know what the problems were, and my usual response to that sort of thing is probably not appropriate to this forum. So... let's make this a positive learning experience. What, exactly, did we do wrong and what could have gone wrong?

I don't see any possible way for anyone to honestly interpret what I wrote as saying you were "dumb", just completely uneducated. Big difference -- one is hopeless, the other can be fixed as long as you're willing and ready to learn. I've given you the keys to that learning -- please use them.

 

[poadeleted20]

I imagine Ron is referring to being at the abeam position. I wouldn't call it dangerous.

Acute and high -- and that combination can be (and has been) lethal. In fact, that combination is what killed two members of the Vultures a couple of years ago, and they had a lot of training, qualification, and experience -- just let it get away from them one day.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

If you don't know why it's so dangerous, then you really shouldn't be trying this.

Just to make sure we are all on the same page. That photo was zoomed in and cropped. Here is another original. We were on FF and we were heading N to Denton and he was heading NE

The photo I posted was heavily zoomed in so I could post it on Troy's facebook page. There was no formation flying going on in the photo just 2 planes, one passing the other.

And this is shot with an 80MM zoom. They weren't taken with a cell phone.

My intent with the original photo was hoping I could fly in that sort of visual range of another plane but given the responses, I am not going to attempt it.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Start by reading Alton Marsh's articles. Then read these three:
Up Close and Personal: Formation Flying (Jennifer Whitley, AvWeb)
Deceptive Form (Scott Spangler, AOPA Pilot)
Formation Flying (Barry Schiff, AOPA Pilot)

Then get and read the T-34 Formation Manual. Then take a good formation flying clinic. When you're done, you'll know.

Thanks!

What do you think of the Mooney formation flying classes that are a prereq to participating in the oshkosh mooney caravan?

 

[denverpilot]

My intent with the original photo was hoping I could fly in that sort of visual range of another plane but given the responses, I am not going to attempt it.

Ha. The removal of the cropping sure paints a different picture.

You *can* fly as close as the cropped version. Folks just wouldn't recommend it cold turkey.

One solid day of ground and flight training and you'd be aware enough of the risks and procedures to fly very loosely on a reasonable weather day.

More days, even better.

I was quite surprised at how much work it is for the trail aircraft to hold position. It's not a ginger "light on the controls" activity when in closer on a mildly bumpy summer day. You're busy as hell.

Which is why the lead is supposed to be the experienced pilot. You're so busy you wouldn't notice if a mountain loomed large dead ahead. At least at first.

Your eyeballs are locked on the lead aircraft when you're new to it. (Counting rivets. Holy crap...!) They're really flying their airplane... and yours.

And if properly briefed, ready to break off in a pre-arranged safe direction if necessary and call "knock it off".

It apparently gets easier. I haven't done enough of it yet for it to be so. It's a workout. A fun workout but deadly serious. A midair is a great way to ruin your whole day. At least.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Find an old military guy. They'll really teach you how to fly in a formation.

It's how I learned.

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks!

Happy to help. Read, learn, enjoy.

What do you think of the Mooney formation flying classes that are a prereq to participating in the oshkosh mooney caravan?

Not familiar with them beyond their existence.

 

[poadeleted20]

Find an old military guy. They'll really teach you how to fly in a formation.

I would point out that Stu McCurdy (Falcon One in the RV formation world and head of FFI) is a retired USAF Colonel F-4/F-16 pilot with a strong background in Standardization/Evaluation. The guy who "put it all together" for the Grumman formation community was a USAF F-4 pilot and AT-38 Lead-In Fighter Training formation instructor. They brought standardization, procedures, training and discipline to those groups, and those are the keys to safe formation flying. Tap just about any quality formation operation, and you'll find military-trained flyers at the core.

 

[Perezhr]

Based on your post and the picture, your instructor's formation training was lousy. He's in the wrong place, and you never put the rookie in the lead.

I would think that if his instructor is after a good picture he is going to put himself in the best place to get one.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[denverpilot]

Thanks!

What do you think of the Mooney formation flying classes that are a prereq to participating in the oshkosh mooney caravan?

Most of the mass arrival groups teach a minimum of formation flying to simply get from a nearby airport to the OSH airport without swapping paint and making simultaneous landings on a looooooong runway. (Keep rolling. A lot faster than you think you should. There are people landing behind you.)

I can't speak for the Mooney group, but the Cessnas 2 Oshkosh group is very clear that their required formation flying training prior to arrival is not a full formation flight training curriculum and is intended as an introduction only, and an evaluation as to whether the pilot can maintain a reasonable distance from another aircraft and not hurt themselves while enroute for only a few short miles and to make a safe parallel landing with pre-briefed emergency strategies for where everyone is going if there's a problem.

They'll also take anyone having difficulty up for more practice with a CFI and qualified C2O trainer if they're still feeling apprehensive at the launch airport.

I believe Bonanzas 2 Oshkosh does a bit more than Cessna from what I've read. And I know nothing about Mooney.

But I wouldn't count on any of those to be any more than a "solid introduction" to loose formation flight. Not necessarily a bad one either. But not like you'll see out if a dedicated formation flight training program.

 

[poadeleted20]

I would think that if his instructor is after a good picture he is going to put himself in the best place to get one.

Doesn't matter. If the instructor wants a good picture, the instructor should get a good formation pilot to work with. Too many accidents on the books involving pilots not properly trained/qualified for formation flying trying to take pictures of airplanes in flight -- usually fatal.