Flying IFR KSYR to KPTD routing?

[rookie1255]

Have VOR/DME, but no GPS in airplane. Would like to plan a theoretical flight from Syracuse (KSYR) to Potsdam (KPTD). KPTD has no instrument approaches that I can use. How does the routing work? I would think that filing to the Massena VOR (MSS) is closest and then fly VFR to KPTD, but the low alt IFR chart states to radial to the VOR is unusable. Could I file to the LETUS intersection? Does IFR then get terminated at that point unless weather is not VFR to KPTD and I need to divert? Regardless I know that I would need to file an alternate. Just looking for the best "by the book" answer for dealing with this situation. Thanks.

 

[chemgeek]

Filing to LETUS might be your best bet, and see what you get for a clearance. What will happen is at some point you will get a descent to the MVA (around 3900?) then you will have to be VFR to complete the flight and may have to cancel IFR if VFR and descending below radio range for Boston Center. It looks like ART is your only viable nearby alternate as you need ADF for OGS. Without GPS or ADF you will need serious VFR to fly in, as the only approaches to PTD are RNAV and NDB.

 

[luvflyin]

Have VOR/DME, but no GPS in airplane. Would like to plan a theoretical flight from Syracuse (KSYR) to Potsdam (KPTD). KPTD has no instrument approaches that I can use. How does the routing work? I would think that filing to the Massena VOR (MSS) is closest and then fly VFR to KPTD, but the low alt IFR chart states to radial to the VOR is unusable. Could I file to the LETUS intersection? Does IFR then get terminated at that point unless weather is not VFR to KPTD and I need to divert? Regardless I know that I would need to file an alternate. Just looking for the best "by the book" answer for dealing with this situation. Thanks.

Hard to say what the “best by the book” answer is. Filing ‘short’ to and getting a clearance ‘To’ LETUS should work just fine. You could also file and get a clearance to KPTD via ...LETUS Direct. You would end up cancelling before you got Potsdam either way. You might even get a Cruise clearance. Those don’t seem to be used much but ‘by the book’ they are there. Here’s some book references.
CRUISE in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.
AIM 4-4-3 d. 3.
FAR 91.177 (a) (2) tells you what the minimum altitude is
The Controllers book says this:
a. Altitude to maintain or cruise. When issuing cruise in conjunction with an airport clearance limit and an unpublished route will be used, issue an appropriate crossing altitude to ensure terrain clearance until the aircraft reaches a fix, point, or route where the altitude information is available to the pilot. When issuing a cruise clearance to an airport which does not have a published instrument approach, a cruise clearance without a crossing restriction may be issued.
PHRASEOLOGY−
MAINTAIN/CRUISE (altitude). MAINTAIN (altitude) UNTIL (time, fix, waypoint),
or
(number of miles or minutes) MILES/MINUTES PAST (fix, waypoint).
CROSS (fix, point, waypoint), or
INTERCEPT (route) AT OR ABOVE (altitude), CRUISE (altitude).
NOTE−
1. The crossing altitude must assure IFR obstruction clearance to the point where the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure.
2. When an aircraft is issued a cruise clearance to an airport which does not have a published instrument approach procedure, it is not possible to satisfy the requirement for a crossing altitude that will ensure terrain clearance until the aircraft reaches a fix, point, or route where altitude information is available to the pilot. Under those conditions, a cruise clearance without a crossing restriction authorizes a pilot to determine the minimum IFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.177 and descend to it at pilot discretion if it is lower than the altitude specified in the cruise clearance.

 

[azure]

Hard to say what the “best by the book” answer is. Filing ‘short’ to and getting a clearance ‘To’ LETUS should work just fine. You could also file and get a clearance to KPTD via ...LETUS Direct.

Sounds like he would then be filing for a flight without navigational equipment "suitable for the route to be flown". How does he get from LETUS to KPTD with only a VOR/DME and a 6-pack?

 

[James331]

I’d go KSYR ART LETUS OG into the loc for KOGS, which will get you down to 760 MSL for the circle which is just under 500’, which is also the minim height you can fly over things as you break out and scud run to Potsdam

Also Potsdam's NDB is out of service, so without GPS Potsdam is going to be a VFR arrangement, approach can’t clear you very low towards in that area ether and their radar isn’t much use for anything under 3-4k.

The northcountry is not a good place to not have GPS

 

[luvflyin]

Sounds like he would then be filing for a flight without navigational equipment "suitable for the route to be flown". How does he get from LETUS to KPTD with only a VOR/DME and a 6-pack?

Dead Reckoning

 

[azure]

Dead Reckoning

Allow me to rephrase then: is it legal to file a route with a leg you're not equipped to navigate except by dead reckoning? Is dead reckoning considered "suitable" navigational equipment? I'm thinking of 91.205(d)(2) specifically, and the CC's letter to Collins:

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
...
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

Personally, with the OP's panel I would file to KART, then perhaps request a diversion to KPTD and a radar vector with a heading suggested by a VFR GPS if the OP has one (or ForeFlight). If ATC declines, then cancel and proceed VFR if possible, otherwise land at KART and wait out the weather.

 

[luvflyin]

Allow me to rephrase then: is it legal to file a route with a leg you're not equipped to navigate except by dead reckoning? Is dead reckoning considered "suitable" navigational equipment? I'm thinking of 91.205(d)(2) specifically, and the CC's letter to Collins:



Personally, with the OP's panel I would file to KART, then perhaps request a diversion to KPTD and a radar vector with a heading suggested by a VFR GPS if the OP has one (or ForeFlight). If ATC declines, then cancel and proceed VFR if possible, otherwise land at KART and wait out the weather.

One could make the argument that a compass is ‘navigational’ equipment. It says nothing about ‘electronic.’ Yeah, if the weather was pretty scuzzy I’d say landing somewhere else or making an Approach somewhere else to get underneath, cancel and going VFR would be a good option. Do you have a link to that CC letter to Collins or can you just copy and paste it here?

 

[azure]

The link was in a different thread... let me find it.

Here it is:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...015/collins - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf

(Of course, the letter doesn't address your point about a compass being suitable equipment. But I think this whole argument is essentially the one that people were having a few years back about filing direct to a fix without RNAV equipment... and the consensus seems to have been that the FAA doesn't consider that kosher.)

 

[James331]

Allow me to rephrase then: is it legal to file a route with a leg you're not equipped to navigate except by dead reckoning? Is dead reckoning considered "suitable" navigational equipment? I'm thinking of 91.205(d)(2) specifically, and the CC's letter to Collins:



Personally, with the OP's panel I would file to KART, then perhaps request a diversion to KPTD and a radar vector with a heading suggested by a VFR GPS if the OP has one (or ForeFlight). If ATC declines, then cancel and proceed VFR if possible, otherwise land at KART and wait out the weather.

With the radar limitations up there you might as well just fly from KART to KPTD VFR, because they won’t get you below 3-4K with vectors

 

[luvflyin]

I’d go KSYR ART LETUS OG into the loc for KOGS, which will get you down to 760 MSL for the circle which is just under 500’, which is also the minim height you can fly over things as you break out and scud run to Potsdam

Also Potsdam's NDB is out of service, so without GPS Potsdam is going to be a VFR arrangement, approach can’t clear you very low towards in that area ether and their radar isn’t much use for anything under 3-4k.

The northcountry is not a good place to not have GPS

Sounds like you know the area. Do you know what the Centers MIA(mva) is there? Is it designated Mountiness Terrain? I’m wondering if there would be anything to gained by getting ‘Cruise’ and being able to get lower than what you could get from them anyway.

 

[James331]

Yes and it’s like 3-4k

You’re going to want to shoot an approach into OGS or MSS and break off, and hop over VFR, OGS would be my choice for you if you can ha handle the ADF requirement

 

[luvflyin]

The link was in a different thread... let me find it.

Here it is:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...015/collins - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf

(Of course, the letter doesn't address your point about a compass being suitable equipment. But I think this whole argument is essentially the one that people were having a few years back about filing direct to a fix without RNAV equipment... and the consensus seems to have been that the FAA doesn't consider that kosher.)

Yeah, that letter just quotes the FAR and doesn’t define navigational equipment. There are Approaches that have Dead Reckoning segements. Paging @aterpster . Do you know if there are still some airways with DR segements? While we’re on the subject, do you think there might be more as the MON progresses?

 

[azure]

Yes and it’s like 3-4k

You’re going to want to shoot an approach into OGS or MSS and break off, and hop over VFR, OGS would be my choice for you if you can ha handle the ADF requirement

It sounded like the OP had only VOR/DME and the usual 6-pack instruments... no ADF.
(I assume that's why the recommendation of KART.)

 

[Clip4]

Here is your problem:

MASSENA (H) VORTACW 114.1 VOR unusable:
056-066 blo 14,000 ́
067-260
261-271 blo 18,000 ́
261-271 byd 38 NM
272–055

 

[gacoon]

What happens if you go Lost Comm and you are only filed to an intersection. Why not file to a nearby airport with your flight plan passing over/or near LETUS. If you arrive an LETUS and are in VFR conditions you can cancel and proceed to the airport you really want to go to, if not you'll have to proceed to the airport you filed to or make other arrangements with ATC while air born. Filing to an intersection with no absolute guarantee of VFR below is risky in my book.

 

[James331]

Another thought, if you have DME.
the VFR hop to Potsdam would be a little longer and might not be as straight line.

KSYR STODA UTICA SLK RIGID TRIKY JONNN KSLK KPTD

Then follow the roads to Potsdam, it’s pretty sparse so you could just keep 500’ AGL

 

[chemgeek]

The route to and from SLK is over mountainous and rugged terrain. I'd rather try filing through ART and trying to fly in VFR conditions to PTD over lower terrain. OGS is not an IFR option because OP does not have required ADF.

I agree that OP cannot legally navigate IFR from LETUS to PTD without IFR GPS as there is no available route or transition via VOR. The only way to do it is VFR or at MVA via radar vectors in VMC for the visual if ATC will allow it. The sector min altitude at PTD is 3900 I think. MVA can't be a whole lot lower. You could do better on your own VFR from ART.

No matter how you slice it, the arrival will be a visual approach in VFR as equipped. With RNAV it's a different story.

 

[James331]

The route to and from SLK is over mountainous and rugged terrain. I'd rather try filing through ART and trying to fly in VFR conditions to PTD over lower terrain. OGS is not an IFR option because OP does not have required ADF.

I agree that OP cannot legally navigate IFR from LETUS to PTD without IFR GPS as there is no available route or transition via VOR. The only way to do it is VFR or at MVA via radar vectors in VMC for the visual if ATC will allow it. The sector min altitude at PTD is 3900 I think. MVA can't be a whole lot lower. You could do better on your own VFR from ART.

No matter how you slice it, the arrival will be a visual approach in VFR as equipped. With RNAV it's a different story.

SLK normally has the worse weather in the north country, if you have a high enough ceiling to get out of the bowl, it should be smooth sailing to Potsdam.

None the less this isn’t a 101 level assignment, I’m quite interested in who and why you were given this homework assignment.