Flying IFR in a VFR only plane and iPad

[dtuuri]

The error budget allows for flight technical error, altimeter errors, instrument errors (e.g., your CDI showing on-glidepath vs actually being on-glidepath).

I don't remember the error budget allocation (and it would take me a while to reconstruct it) for each error source.

I believe the main point of Appendix B to The Instrument Procedures Handbook is to emphasize that "flight technical error" is not taken into consideration, at least beyond a point. In its example, at 51 nm from a NAVAID, acceptable PTS standards together with allowable navigation equipment error place you as much as 6.4 nm outside the protected airspace of the airway.

In the case of the ILS brought up by Cap'n Ron, an "allowable" altimeter error of 75' doesn't equate to the loss of all obstacle clearance as he first suggested, but it can certainly result in less of it. On the other hand to lead folks to think Terpsters account for "every error" is misleading too. I'd say the best policy is to assume nothing and keep the needles centered.

dtuuri

 

[poadeleted20]

No, I don't need a hint, I already gave you the answer here:


No charge for the gound school. :wink2:

dtuuri

Let's see if I have this straight. You asked a question, I answered it, and you now say you already knew the answer which had been previously posted and feel that by doing this, you have educated me.

Got it.

Thanks.

 

[dtuuri]

Let's see if I have this straight. You asked a question, I answered it, and you now say you already knew the answer which had been previously posted and feel that by doing this, you have educated me.

Got it.

Thanks.

Before I educated you, you were saying the reason altimeter error limits are 75' is because:

...you may have as little as 75 feet of obstruction clearance at the bottom of an ILS approach...

dtuuri

 

[Ted]

What's scary is that you can legally fly an approach to minimums with an altimeter that reads + or - 75 feet.

The approaches are designed with that in mind.

 

[vince]

So what about the handhelds that can track ILS signals. How feasible is it to use those? Like this one:

http://www.yaesu.com/airband/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&DivisionID=2&ProdCatID=204&ProdID=1777

 

[poadeleted20]

So what about the handhelds that can track ILS signals. How feasible is it to use those? Like this one:

http://www.yaesu.com/airband/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&DivisionID=2&ProdCatID=204&ProdID=1777

You can certainly carry one as a backup in case all your installed radios go out, but the FAA does not permit the use of handhelds as a primary system, i.e., to meet the equipment requirements of 91.205(d).

 

[GCA319]

i flew IFR in a cherokee that had a VFR gps. sure i could have filed /G and ATC probably wouldn't have known. i filed /U and did the right thing. they gave me a direct clearance and i told them i was unable to and i was /U even though i could have flown direct the VFR GPS. bottom line is do the right thing and follow the rules

There's a legal way to do that. Ask ATC for a heading direct to wherever they're clearing you to (as long as it is something you can identify with your nav radios) and use the VFR GPS for "advisory" purposes. /A Freight guys do that all the time around here.

 

[denverpilot]

There's a legal way to do that. Ask ATC for a heading direct to wherever they're clearing you to (as long as it is something you can identify with your nav radios) and use the VFR GPS for "advisory" purposes. /A Freight guys do that all the time around here.

"I can't accept that direct clearance, sir... But I am vector qualified! My guess is a heading of about 083 would do it !"

 

[James331]

So what about the handhelds that can track ILS signals. How feasible is it to use those? Like this one:

http://www.yaesu.com/airband/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&DivisionID=2&ProdCatID=204&ProdID=1777

I have the vertex handheld that can display vor & loc and I wouldn't want to use it for primary nav, it's a if all else fails kinda feature.

 

[poadeleted20]

There's a legal way to do that. Ask ATC for a heading direct to wherever they're clearing you to (as long as it is something you can identify with your nav radios) and use the VFR GPS for "advisory" purposes.

That's OK if it's something to which you can eventually navigate yourself, like a VOR too far off for you to receive initially. It's not OK if it's not something you'll eventually be able to navigate to direct, like an intersection, unless you have RNAV gear (in which case you wouldn't need the vector other than long enough to plug the fix into your system).

/A Freight guys do that all the time around here.

Lots of people do it, but it isn't legal even if ATC give you the clearance, as they are not responsible for the outcome -- only the pilot is. Of course, as long as you don't spoil their day (or night, for the freight dogs) by wandering off course, they won't care, but if you do, it could be six months on the ground for you.

 

[gismo]

Of course, as long as you don't spoil their day (or night, for the freight dogs) by wandering off course, they won't care, but if you do, it could be six months on the ground for you.

I had the chief pilot for a large national supermarket chain insist that it was legal to file and accept a clearance for "direct to" anywhere with his VFR LORAN (yes this was a while ago) as long as he put "VFR LORAN" in the remarks. I actually believed him for a few minutes until I looked into it myself.

 

[poadeleted20]

I had the chief pilot for a large national supermarket chain insist that it was legal to file and accept a clearance for "direct to" anywhere with his VFR LORAN (yes this was a while ago) as long as he put "VFR LORAN" in the remarks. I actually believed him for a few minutes until I looked into it myself.

Yeah, they're out there. And most of the time they get away with it, too. But if it goes bad, the penalty can be severe.

 

[Bob Noel]

I had the chief pilot for a large national supermarket chain insist that it was legal to file and accept a clearance for "direct to" anywhere with his VFR LORAN (yes this was a while ago) as long as he put "VFR LORAN" in the remarks. I actually believed him for a few minutes until I looked into it myself.

It is my understanding that ATC won't give a direct clearance unless the aircraft is and will remain in radar coverage. Thus, the pilot isn't using any of the installed nav equipment (nav is provided by the radar vector(s) from ATC). Any VFR equipment installed or handheld equipment isn't used for primary nav.

Put another way, A VFR LORAN or any handheld equipment (e.g., handheld GPS) doesn't allow the pilot to accept and fly any IFR route she couldn't otherwise accept.

 

[poadeleted20]

It is my understanding that ATC won't give a direct clearance unless the aircraft is and will remain in radar coverage. Thus, the pilot isn't using any of the installed nav equipment (nav is provided by the radar vector(s) from ATC). Any VFR equipment installed or handheld equipment isn't used for primary nav.

That's pretty much true.

Put another way, A VFR LORAN or any handheld equipment (e.g., handheld GPS) doesn't allow the pilot to accept and fly any IFR route she couldn't otherwise accept.

That's exactly true. If you couldn't at least eventually navigate to and determine passage of the fix, you can't accept vectors to that fix.

 

[Jaybird180]

You can certainly carry one as a backup in case all your installed radios go out, but the FAA does not permit the use of handhelds as a primary system, i.e., to meet the equipment requirements of 91.205(d).

Does a handheld have any value? If primary nav goes TU can you shoot the ILS or do you have to get vectors to VMC?

 

[poadeleted20]

Does a handheld have any value?

Absolutely -- it provides backup if you lose what's in the panel.

If primary nav goes TU can you shoot the ILS or do you have to get vectors to VMC?

Sure, but you would probably want to practice a bit with it in good VMC ahead of time so you know it indicates reliably. And I'd probably be looking for radar monitoring all the way down, if at all possible, just as a backup to the backup.

 

[ChrisK]

That's OK if it's something to which you can eventually navigate yourself, like a VOR too far off for you to receive initially. It's not OK if it's not something you'll eventually be able to navigate to direct, like an intersection, unless you have RNAV gear (in which case you wouldn't need the vector other than long enough to plug the fix into your system).

Temporary hijack.

I'm glad you mention this. I periodically want to fly /U in the direction of a VOR 43NM away. Totally understand this would be impossible in IMC.

Seems like you're suggesting that a pilot could request shortcut off route vectors to within reception range of a VOR to cut airway corners. Doesn't help my situation above but nice tool in the bag.

 

[JHW]

My pawnee is a "vfr only" plane. It doesnt even have a t&b, just a ball. How is an ipad going to keep the dirty side of the airplane toward the ground ?

 

[poadeleted20]

That's OK if it's something to which you can eventually navigate yourself, like a VOR too far off for you to receive initially. It's not OK if it's not something you'll eventually be able to navigate to direct, like an intersection, unless you have RNAV gear (in which case you wouldn't need the vector other than long enough to plug the fix into your system).

Temporary hijack.

I'm glad you mention this. I periodically want to fly /U in the direction of a VOR 43NM away. Totally understand this would be impossible in IMC.

Once airborne and in radar contact, you can legally get radar vectors to that VOR since you'll eventually be able to navigate to it yourself. However, you can't file direct to it or accept an "own nav" clearance direct to it.

Seems like you're suggesting that a pilot could request shortcut off route vectors to within reception range of a VOR to cut airway corners. Doesn't help my situation above but nice tool in the bag.

Correct. You can also use it to go direct to a VOR a long way off, not just to cut corners. However, it's only available if you're already in radar contact and will stay in radar coverage all the way until you can receive the VOR suitable for navigation.

 

[poadeleted20]

My pawnee is a "vfr only" plane. It doesnt even have a t&b, just a ball. How is an ipad going to keep the dirty side of the airplane toward the ground ?

There are apps which provide attitude information on an iPad. Here's one example.
http://www.caffeinatedconsulting.com/aircraft_panel_-_ipad
It's not as good as a real attitude indictor, but if you fly gently, it should be pretty good in an emergency situation.

 

[Jaybird180]

Absolutely -- it provides backup if you lose what's in the panel.
Sure, but you would probably want to practice a bit with it in good VMC ahead of time so you know it indicates reliably. And I'd probably be looking for radar monitoring all the way down, if at all possible, just as a backup to the backup.

I meant, can this be done legally, without 91.3 being in the pilots thought process?

And how is his any different than shooting a GPS approach with a handheld when the panel mount dies in flight?

Or how about using your wristwatch when the panel mount clock dies? (Still SMH over that one)

 

[JHW]

if by some twist of fate I got stuck on top in the pawnee (not likely) I'd dump whatever I had in the hopper and put it in a spin to get down, before trying to conjure up an ipad solution and pretend i could keep it out of a spiral

 

[Henning]

My pawnee is a "vfr only" plane. It doesnt even have a t&b, just a ball. How is an ipad going to keep the dirty side of the airplane toward the ground ?

With an AHRS and SVT from WingX.

 

[Henning]

Once airborne and in radar contact, you can legally get radar vectors to that VOR since you'll eventually be able to navigate to it yourself. However, you can't file direct to it or accept an "own nav" clearance direct to it.

Correct. You can also use it to go direct to a VOR a long way off, not just to cut corners. However, it's only available if you're already in radar contact and will stay in radar coverage all the way until you can receive the VOR suitable for navigation.

Not that I'm arguing that it's okay or anything, but if you know where you are and have a chart and a compass, you can just use a DST calculation and fly in the general direction of VOR above the sector altitudes until you get within the service volume of the VOR.

 

[JHW]

With an AHRS and SVT from WingX.

yesterday the kids wanted me to play minecraft on the ipad. 3 times in a row I fell in the lava and died. I think I'll stick with the steam gages inthe airplane and keep the ipad in its role as a chart reader.

 

[Henning]

yesterday the kids wanted me to play minecraft on the ipad. 3 times in a row I fell in the lava and died. I think I'll stick with the steam gages inthe airplane and keep the ipad in its role as a chart reader.

You might also want to refrain from flying over lava pits.

I don't think it's good, wise, or proper to fly IFR with an iPad as instrumentation, in fact I consider it stupid. However the question was "How do you keep the shiny side up?" and that is the answer, and it works very well...until it decides it needs to reboot. However, if one is in a bind, it does have the potential to save your ass.

 

[JimNtexas]

if by some twist of fate I got stuck on top in the pawnee (not likely) I'd dump whatever I had in the hopper and put it in a spin to get down, before trying to conjure up an ipad solution and pretend i could keep it out of a spiral

When I was much younger and somewhat more foolish I read in a book that the old mail pilots used the 'spin through the clouds' technique in lieu of the not-yet-invented instrument approach. It is true that a full spin is the only stable configuration a light plane can assume.

Being very young and foolish I took a J-3 up and over a typical Texas summer puffy cloud. Just a pretty little puffy out on its own, probably 2000 feet thick with a base at about 2000 agl.

It took a while to get up over it. Once over the puffy engine idle, nose up, stick full back, kick the rudder at the break, remember to hold that stick full back and rudder full in, and into the cloud!

A second latter I experienced a moment of absolute, total, animal level terror!

That cloud at that moment was blacker than a witch's heart!

Another second I popped out of the bottom of the cloud, did a sloppy recovery, and flew along trembling like a leaf until I got my breathing and pulse rates down to normal levels.

I proved to myself that I in no way have the kind of courage those old mail pilots exhibited.

 

[nosehair]

My pawnee is a "vfr only" plane. It doesnt even have a t&b, just a ball. How is an ipad going to keep the dirty side of the airplane toward the ground ?

If you only have a ball, use the ailerons, ailerons only-no rudder, to "pull" the ball back to center. keeps the wings level.
This, of course, is counter-intuitive to the ingrained habit of "step-on-the-ball", but when you don't have the needle, it's the best way to do it.

 

[Jaybird180]

When I was much younger and somewhat more foolish I read in a book that the old mail pilots used the 'spin through the clouds' technique in lieu of the not-yet-invented instrument approach. It is true that a full spin is the only stable configuration a light plane can assume.

Being very young and foolish I took a J-3 up and over a typical Texas summer puffy cloud. Just a pretty little puffy out on its own, probably 2000 feet thick with a base at about 2000 agl.

It took a while to get up over it. Once over the puffy engine idle, nose up, stick full back, kick the rudder at the break, remember to hold that stick full back and rudder full in, and into the cloud!

A second latter I experienced a moment of absolute, total, animal level terror!

That cloud at that moment was blacker than a witch's heart!

Another second I popped out of the bottom of the cloud, did a sloppy recovery, and flew along trembling like a leaf until I got my breathing and pulse rates down to normal levels.

I proved to myself that I in no way have the kind of courage those old mail pilots exhibited.

Which is why it is foolish advice.

 

[poadeleted20]

I meant, can this be done legally, without 91.3 being in the pilots thought process?

Can what be done legally in a non-emergency situation?[/QUOTE]

And how is his any different than shooting a GPS approach with a handheld when the panel mount dies in flight?

If the only thing which has failed is the installed, certified IFR GPS, and you still have other legal options (like VOR or ILS), then shooting a GPS approach off a handheld is not legal.

Or how about using your wristwatch when the panel mount clock dies? (Still SMH over that one)

If the installed clock dies in flight, then you can use your wristwatch as needed to get on the ground safely, but then you can't legally take off IFR again until the installed clock is fixed/replaced. Of course, the FAA has stated that the embedded clocks in a lot of modern avionics are valid as your 91.205(d)-required clock, so you may have more options than you think.

 

[poadeleted20]

Not that I'm arguing that it's okay or anything, but if you know where you are and have a chart and a compass, you can just use a DST calculation and fly in the general direction of VOR above the sector altitudes until you get within the service volume of the VOR.

I thought the discussion was about a) what is legal, and b) what your legal options are when on-board systems fail, not what you can do regardless of legality.

 

[Jaybird180]

Can what be done legally in a non-emergency situation?

Can a handheld radio be used to shoot an ILS approach?
http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/14807

 

[poadeleted20]

Can a handheld radio be used to shoot an ILS approach?
http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/14807

Can it be used? Theoretically, yes, depending on reception inside your airplane. May it be used legally? Not outside of an emergency situation like loss of your installed nav gear and no visual weather conditions reasonably available.

 

[Palmpilot]

Can it be used? Theoretically, yes, depending on reception inside your airplane. May it be used legally? Not outside of an emergency situation like loss of your installed nav gear and no visual weather conditions reasonably available.

In addition to whatever other considerations may apply, my recollection is that the word "contains" in 91.205(a) has been held to mean that the equipment has to be installed in the aircraft, which would appear to support what you're saying.

 

[Jaybird180]

In addition to whatever other considerations may apply, my recollection is that the word "contains" in 91.205(a) has been held to mean that the equipment has to be installed in the aircraft, which would appear to support what you're saying.

So why does Sporty's sell so many of these to seasoned pilots?

 

[Palmpilot]

So why does Sporty's sell so many of these to seasoned pilots?

Why wouldn't they?

 

[Jaybird180]

Why wouldn't they?

Are you hinting at that sucker born quote again?

 

[Henning]

Are you hinting at that sucker born quote again?

Either that or it's a 'because they work, and anything is legal in an emergency'.

 

[Palmpilot]

Are you hinting at that sucker born quote again?

No, but it sounds like you are.

I don't see why the issue of whether it is legal to rely on a handheld ILS receiver absent an emergency would stop people from buying them. My guess is that most buyers want them as an emergency backup, while some may be unaware of the legal question concerning non-emergency use, and others don't care whether it is legal or not.

 

[Henning]

People buy a lot of stuff for emergency purposes.